Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=SBXVII;775616]^ Personally I have felt it's easier to get defensive players late in the draft but I keep hearing other say it's easier to get OL. [COLOR="Green"]I mention we need to atleast pick up a Center to replace Rabach [/COLOR]and I'd like to see a RT who has the talent and knows what they are doing vs. seeing Heyer or hoping Brown doesn't get injured next yr. But again I'm being told you don't draft Centers and RT's so high in the draft.

One of my other concerns as a priority would be NT. Bryant did an [COLOR="Green"]admiral [/COLOR]job and seemed to move well on his feet but radio announcers are saying he's a good back up. [COLOR="Green"]So perhaps a NT at #10. [/COLOR]

I think it's obvious we need OL, NT, LB, FS, >not in any specific order although I'd still take OL or NT before the rest, and then you can pick you poison.... QB, WR, CB. There are also multiple people throwing out speculation that we will not retain about 5-6 people on defense so this year might be the yr we spend more there since we spent more on offense last yr. With the possibility of Carter, Rocky, Rogers, and a NT and FS needed you can see that might be where we start.

I think it still all depends on what we do in FA. The only problem there is if there is no CBA agreement then the draft would come first and the team would have to draft with the thought that we don't pick up anyone in FA, but if we do later then good for us. I like this thought process but most teams like to shop prior to the draft to see if they can fill any spots first.[/quote]

We have two natural centers playing guard. What we actually need are guards.

We have to see if there's DT project that high first.
It's admirable, not admiral.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

I think Malcolm Kelly can replace Santana Moss and would like to see Kelly come out of the slot like Marques Colston does with the Saints.

Moss can still be somewhat productive if he's resigned, but people are going WAY out of their way to make Moss seem more productive than he was this year. He had a number of very good games but was the lifeblood target of a passing offense that had no life. We sure could have done worse but we NEEDED to do better in his role. That's the mentality we need to take in to offseason.

There are a number of worse options than Moss out there, but this passing game needs to get better. I'd let him walk.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

Our WR corps had good production this year.
Compared to other positions they as a unit have played above replacement level.
Not re-signing Moss just creates a hole at a place where there doesn't need to be one.

We have true needs at: QB, Center, 3-4 DE, depending on what happens w/ Jamaal Brown RT, NT, OG, LOLB

Realistically we're not going to be able to add more then 2-3 impact players to address the above needs.

Why add WR to the need list by not re-signing Moss?

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

Current Status: We need another WR.

Moss needs a new deal.
Santana still has a couple decent years as a roleplayer, he still can play at a high level.
He had a decent year actually. McNabb underfire all year still being semi consistent and then stepping up as Grossman came in as well.

Theres gotta be someone in FA thats a bargain who can make some plays .

We need at least 2 big FA pickups and a huge draft this year.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;776474]I think Malcolm Kelly can replace Santana Moss and would like to see Kelly come out of the slot like Marques Colston does with the Saints.

Moss can still be somewhat productive if he's resigned, but people are going WAY out of their way to make Moss seem more productive than he was this year. He had a number of very good games but was the lifeblood target of a passing offense that had no life. We sure could have done worse but we NEEDED to do better in his role. That's the mentality we need to take in to offseason.

There are a number of worse options than Moss out there, but this passing game needs to get better. I'd let him walk.[/quote]

LOL... Good one.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=30gut;776640]Our WR corps had good production this year.
Compared to other positions they as a unit have played above replacement level.
Not re-signing Moss just creates a hole at a place where there doesn't need to be one.

We have true needs at: QB, Center, 3-4 DE, depending on what happens w/ Jamaal Brown RT, NT, OG, LOLB

Realistically we're not going to be able to add more then 2-3 impact players to address the above needs.

Why add WR to the need list by not re-signing Moss?[/quote]Let me put it this way: Moss is not a weakness for where we are as a team. He's a weakness for wherever we want to go with our passing game.

We clearly changed his role this year to a receiver that leads the league in targets in the passing offense. That essentially means we can only be as successful as the player in that role is at his craft. And Moss was...a little bit better than say, our defense, this year.

Trying someone else in the same role might lead to more struggles and a greater weakness at the receiver position, but could easily lead to a far more efficient offense.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;776948]Let me put it this way: Moss is not a weakness for where we are as a team. He's a weakness for wherever we want to go with our passing game.

We clearly changed his role this year to a receiver that leads the league in targets in the passing offense. That essentially means we can only be as successful as the player in that role is at his craft. And Moss was...a little bit better than say, our defense, this year.

Trying someone else in the same role might lead to more struggles and a greater weakness at the receiver position, but could easily lead to a far more efficient offense.[/quote]

Yeah but that is absolutely not the fault of Moss. Moss had a great season, but you know what you got in Moss, a solid number 2 or slot reciever. Kyle and Shanny tryed multiple recievers with multiple sets. Santana easily picked up the offense and excelled in his role. Could other guys on the team stepped into and preformed his role, obviously not. Kelly on the bench and shown zero since he has been here. Santana helps this team much more than hurts. Do we need a number 1? Absolutely all day. But to say we need to replace Santana with someone else as well? I think first year in this offense and how he picked it up, plus he has put up solid number in really multiple bad offenses. He NEVER has drama and has been for the most part injury free. Yes to this offense needs a number 1 who is a red zone reciever and general playmaker...I wouldnt put that on Moss, I think he has earned an extention. If extending Moss for some reason denotes our offense as going in a bad direction, that sh*t is on Kyle then, not Moss.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

A WR that finished 3rd overall in catches and 10th in yardage, was only slightly better than our 31st ranked D? I know it's hard to compare one guy to an entire unit, but I'm still struggling to make sense of that logic.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[URL="http://www.walterfootball.com/draft2011.php"]Walterfootball[/URL] has AJ Green going #1 overall now.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=Mattyk;776962]A WR that finished 3rd overall in catches and 10th in yardage, was only slightly better than our 31st ranked D? I know it's hard to compare one guy to an entire unit, but I'm still struggling to make sense of that logic.[/quote]You said it yourself: 3rd in catches, 10th in yardage.

Better than say, 3rd in catches, 20th in yardage.

Worse than 3rd in catches, 6th in yardage.

I don't want to just throw out a yards per target figure, because it's apples and oranges. Moss used to be let loose deep more frequently, and used to average around 9 ish yards per target. This year, he was around seven and a half. That's predominantly a change in role.

It's also not very good. Percy Harvin got 8 YPT this year in pretty much the same role. Lance Moore got about 8.1 YPT. Mike Thomas was in the same range. Ditto Anquan Boldin. I'm stretching the definition of a similar receiver, but Moss did a new role and did not do it all that well. And we didn't move the ball as an offense and score consistently.

So we took away some of Santana Moss' deep running because this role is more important for the offense. He's doing the role...well, I think we can agree he didn't do great. I also realize you can't replace him with Terrence Austin and get the same production, but I'm not suggesting that we just go and do that.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=Chico23231;776960]Yeah but that is absolutely not the fault of Moss. Moss had a great season, but you know what you got in Moss, a solid number 2 or slot reciever. Kyle and Shanny tryed multiple recievers with multiple sets. Santana easily picked up the offense and excelled in his role. Could other guys on the team stepped into and preformed his role, obviously not. Kelly on the bench and shown zero since he has been here. Santana helps this team much more than hurts. Do we need a number 1? Absolutely all day. But to say we need to replace Santana with someone else as well? I think first year in this offense and how he picked it up, plus he has put up solid number in really multiple bad offenses. He NEVER has drama and has been for the most part injury free. Yes to this offense needs a number 1 who is a red zone reciever and general playmaker...I wouldnt put that on Moss, I think he has earned an extention. If extending Moss for some reason denotes our offense as going in a bad direction, that sh*t is on Kyle then, not Moss.[/quote]I don't think Moss is solid, I think he's shaky. Productive over a long season, but inconsistently so, and you can't put him in the slot receiver 145 target/season role and possibly expect to have a good passing offense. Too many chances on an inconsistent player, and it defines your offense as inconsistent.

I think when we get close to the goal line, Moss is our best route runner. I think thats where his value still lies. In the rest of the field, there's just not enough attention to detail to be effective.

For the record, I would take Santana Moss on my team 100/100 times over a guy like Brandon Marshall, a headcase who does everything worse than Moss. That doesn't mean I think Moss is good enough to take us where we want to go. He's fine for where we are...but again, his contract is expiring.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

In any event we need to upgrade. Either through FA or draft or both.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

i understand the concerns regarding Moss and I agree that he is very shaky at times and def fumbles/drops passes quite a bit. However as a #2 going down the road I LOVE the idea of having Moss around for years to come ... this guy would go bananas against lesser DB's ... think about it .. if say we had a Reggie Wayne (FA) or made a run at Vincent Jackson .. that would open the door for Moss, give AA a chance to shine not to mention defense's still have to figure out how to stop Cooley/Davis ... KEEP SANTANA !

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;776994]I don't think Moss is solid, I think he's shaky. Productive over a long season, but inconsistently so, and you can't put him in the slot receiver 145 target/season role and possibly expect to have a good passing offense. Too many chances on an inconsistent player, and it defines your offense as inconsistent.

I think when we get close to the goal line, Moss is our best route runner. I think thats where his value still lies. In the rest of the field, there's just not enough attention to detail to be effective.

For the record, I would take Santana Moss on my team 100/100 times over a guy like Brandon Marshall, a headcase who does everything worse than Moss. That doesn't mean I think Moss is good enough to take us where we want to go. He's fine for where we are...but again, his contract is expiring.[/quote]

Again I think you need to go back to Kyle and scheme. I mean if he is coming open to get those targets and the QB going to him...dude gonna put up the numbers he did. If he is the best route runner in the red zone and coming open, then Kyle needs to get in the face of the QB and get him the ball down there. I was kinda impressed this season Moss. Again we need to get a number 1, but for where we are at, he is the only reliable reciever we got, numbers show that. To improve the passing game look to scheme, QB play and lack of other WR sorrounding Moss.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;776994]I don't think Moss is solid, I think he's shaky. Productive over a long season, but inconsistently so, and you can't put him in the slot receiver 145 target/season role and possibly expect to have a good passing offense. Too many chances on an inconsistent player, and it defines your offense as inconsistent.

I think when we get close to the goal line, Moss is our best route runner. I think thats where his value still lies. In the rest of the field, there's just not enough attention to detail to be effective.

For the record, I would take Santana Moss on my team 100/100 times over a guy like Brandon Marshall, a headcase who does everything worse than Moss. That doesn't mean I think Moss is good enough to take us where we want to go. He's fine for where we are...but again, his contract is expiring.[/quote]

GT, I understand your argument, I think. He has good #s simply because he's that much of a target, analogous to a basketball player that has a high ppg but shoots a low fg%.

I also understand what others are saying too, he's been our best reciever. I know you've criticized his effort & route running in some games, but I agree w/the others here that say we need better wr's on the outside & his faults will be reduced. Likewise, his #s will drop as well, but I would think w/better options on the field his flaws would be minimized.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=freddyg12;777019][B]GT, I understand your argument, I think. He has good #s simply because he's that much of a target, analogous to a basketball player that has a high ppg but shoots a low fg%.[/B]

I also understand what others are saying too, he's been our best reciever. I know you've criticized his effort & route running in some games, but I agree w/the others here that say we need better wr's on the outside & his faults will be reduced. Likewise, his #s will drop as well, but I would think w/better options on the field his flaws would be minimized.[/quote]That's an excellent way to put it. In this case it would be more of a slightly below average FG%. Not terrible, but the 1,000 yard season is built entirely on being at the top of the league in targets.

I think 1) Anthony Armstrong is very underrated, but 2) Armstrong sees the targets and has the role of the number two WR. He's not going to switch roles with Moss. It wouldn't make any sense. So Moss has no where else to go in the rotation but his current role.

I'm saying he IS the best player on the roster for the role he's in. I don't think we could have done better because the roster is flawed. But if we re-up Santana Moss, we're keeping the status quo of an undertalented roster. Letting Moss walk could hurt the team in the short term (though probably not), but it opens up a roster spot and role for someone potentially better to step in.

I've said I'd like to see Kelly get first crack there, but I would not hitch all my hopes to Malcolm Kelly. I'd explore the draft for a nice receiver option who could play in our offense.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=Chico23231;777012]Again I think you need to go back to Kyle and scheme. I mean if he is coming open to get those targets and the QB going to him...dude gonna put up the numbers he did. [B]If he is the best route runner in the red zone and coming open, then Kyle needs to get in the face of the QB and get him the ball down there.[/B] I was kinda impressed this season Moss. Again we need to get a number 1, but for where we are at, he is the only reliable reciever we got, numbers show that. To improve the passing game look to scheme, QB play and lack of other WR sorrounding Moss.[/quote]I think that's an important observation here. If he's open short, the QB is going to hit him, and that's going to result in high targets. But it's the same argument against Brandon Marshall: if those targets result in catches, but not first downs, big yards, or points scored (and they didn't this year, at least), then all they are is downs that contribute to a below average offense.

I think getting high reception totals is a skill that some receivers have and others lack. But I don't at all think that all skills are valuable. Moss, in his current role, has a skill of getting open and commanding the football that does not help the Redskins win any games or score points to get closer to winning games.

Like I said, in the red zone he's a precise route runner that helped him score six TDs this year. That's not nothing. It's something. It doesn't make up, I think, for the rest of what he does.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;776948]Let me put it this way: Moss is not a weakness for where we are as a team. He's a weakness for wherever we want to go with our passing game.

We clearly changed his role this year to a receiver that leads the league in targets in the passing offense. That essentially means we can only be as successful as the player in that role is at his craft. And Moss was...a little bit better than say, our defense, this year.

Trying someone else in the same role might lead to more struggles and a greater weakness at the receiver position, but could easily lead to a far more efficient offense.[/quote]

Imo our team has too many holes and we have limited resources draft picks and FA to try and upgrade a player/position where we got top 10 production.

Add a returning Malcolm Kelly and a developing Austin i think our WRs corps is one area that we can leave alone while we fix other areas.

Letting Tana walk is digging an hole to fill a hole.

Imo the struggles in our passing game are less b/c of Tana then of misuse of personnel, QB play and coaching/gameplanning/playcalling.


o Joey Galloway slowed/stunted the development of several players
Joey Galloway and Tana often ran in breaking routes that require physicality like slants and digs and square ins

o Fred Davis imo was woefully underused he was the most efficient pass catcher on the team yet was barely on the field more then our ineffective 3rd WRs and also received fewer targets then our 3rd WRs and our most of RBs and FB.

o our QB and OC couldn't get on the same page which limited the passing offense

o very limited use of the screen game

o lack of creativity (we couldn't get Tana/Banks the ball in space?)

I think our passing game has enough talent to be competitive especially if Kelly, Austin and Banks can be worked into the offense.
(imagine what the Pats would do w/ a player like Banks?)

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

Malcolm Kelly had his chance.he sucks! keep the others and add a FA or draft someone in the latter rounds.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

I think our WR core is the best it's been in years. We need to keep/bring back what we had this year for next year.

If anything. I would move Fred Davis to a more WR role.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=30gut;777116]Imo our team has too many holes and we have limited resources draft picks and FA to try and upgrade a player/position where we got top 10 production.

Add a returning Malcolm Kelly and a developing Austin i think our WRs corps is one area that we can leave alone while we fix other areas.

Letting Tana walk is digging an hole to fill a hole.

Imo the struggles in our passing game are less b/c of Tana then of misuse of personnel, QB play and coaching/gameplanning/playcalling.


o Joey Galloway slowed/stunted the development of several players
Joey Galloway and Tana often ran in breaking routes that require physicality like slants and digs and square ins

o Fred Davis imo was woefully underused he was the most efficient pass catcher on the team yet was barely on the field more then our ineffective 3rd WRs and also received fewer targets then our 3rd WRs and our most of RBs and FB.

o our QB and OC couldn't get on the same page which limited the passing offense

o very limited use of the screen game

o lack of creativity (we couldn't get Tana/Banks the ball in space?)

I think our passing game has enough talent to be competitive especially if Kelly, Austin and Banks can be worked into the offense.
(imagine what the Pats would do w/ a player like Banks?)[/quote]I don't disagree with any of your reasons for the passing game struggles, I'm just talking about the struggles of the offense isolated to plays when Moss gets the ball, i.e. about 1/4 of our entire passing offense. Moving Moss isn't going to affect the other 3/4 of our passes, and we have plenty of work to do in those aspects.

I think Moss was a nice system fit this year, I just happen to feel that he did about as well as he could have given his skill set. Letting Moss walk isn't really creating a new hole because an upgrade is already a need, but more directly, he's not under contract for next season. Put in perspective, we could let Moss walk and sign James Jones (GB) and place him in the same role, and we'd more or less have the same strengths and weaknesses with a younger player. Not advocating Jones here or that you'd throw a guy like Jones 145 balls in a season...but of course we shouldn't do the same with Moss again.

I think Moss will get picked up fairly quickly when he hits the market because he's still a very good route runner and he's good around the goal line and he's tough to tackle in space and that's all very valuable receiver stuff. I just don't think it makes much sense for the Redskins to bring him back. I don't see a contract extension to be filling any sort of hole in our offense, instead it just holds the status quo.

I would not scramble frantically to replace Santana Moss' role in the offense, I think it opens up more natural looks for guys like Davis.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;777425]...you'd throw a guy like Jones 145 balls in a season...but of course we shouldn't do the same with Moss again.[/quote]
I actually agree w/ the general idea that good WRs given enough targets can have a solid production. (idk about Jones though)
And in that light i view Moss production as solid.
You sighted his yds/target stat in a previous thread being around 7ish.
But, 7ish isn't bad for a primary WR.

Here are some other primary target WRs around the same yds/target number as Moss:
Roddy White 179 targets/1389 yards=7.76
Moss 146/1115=7.64
Reggie Wayne 173/1355=7.83
Colston 133/1023=7.70
*Larry Fitz=6.54 (but he had a horrible group of QB limit his production)

[quote]I don't see a contract extension to be filling any sort of hole in our offense, instead it just holds the status quo.[/quote]
Moss's production isn't bad in my view.
And the status quo might get better as Kyle learns how to make better use of his skills i.e. running him deep more and not wasting him running slants and in breaking routes that require physicality and good hands. (Kelly should help in this area)

I think upgrading the passing game can more easily w/ lower risk by getting more production/upgrading our 3rd WR then by letting Moss go and hoping to find an improvement.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

[quote=GTripp0012;777425]I don't disagree with any of your reasons for the passing game struggles, I'm just talking about the struggles of the offense isolated to plays when Moss gets the ball, i.e. about 1/4 of our entire passing offense. Moving Moss isn't going to affect the other 3/4 of our passes, and we have plenty of work to do in those aspects.

I think Moss was a nice system fit this year, I just happen to feel that he did about as well as he could have given his skill set. Letting Moss walk isn't really creating a new hole because an upgrade is already a need, but more directly, he's not under contract for next season. Put in perspective, we could let Moss walk and sign James Jones (GB) and place him in the same role, and we'd more or less have the same strengths and weaknesses with a younger player. Not advocating Jones here or that you'd throw a guy like Jones 145 balls in a season...but of course we shouldn't do the same with Moss again.

I think Moss will get picked up fairly quickly when he hits the market because he's still a very good route runner and he's good around the goal line and he's tough to tackle in space and that's all very valuable receiver stuff. I just don't think it makes much sense for the Redskins to bring him back. I don't see a contract extension to be filling any sort of hole in our offense, instead it just holds the status quo.

I would not scramble frantically to replace Santana Moss' role in the offense, I think it opens up more natural looks for guys like Davis.[/quote]

GT, as noted earlier I understand your argument. I also applaud you for the analysis & looking into his stats rather than simply relying on those #s as a sole determination of his value. At the same time, where I disagree w/you is that Moss has a year under this system & is a known commodity. Unless they find a reciever from Houston or another former Shanahan player that can step in & knows the offense, the learning curve has to be taken into account. Aside from the offense, just adjusting to a new team, teamates,etc. is another factor.

With all of the issues this team has, I'd prefer to keep what little stability there is & I see Moss as part of it. The only way I would agree w/you is if the team had enough draft picks to land some wr's or they thought Austin would take that role. i.e. if this is a true clean-house rebuilding why not get rid of Moss? I know this is a rebuilding, call it whatever, but I don't think Shanahan wants to get rid of productive vets that are good for team chemistry. They may need Moss to help build the 'buy in' to the system if nothing else.

Re: Our Current status at the WR position
 

Fix the offensive line first, then get a wr.