Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;808955]Yeah, I know all about Rice's egotistical ways. But like TO, aside from the "prostitution" incident, never any real off-field issues.

Here's a question for you guys (not to take this thread too far off topic). If you had to choose one-who goes in 1st ballot. TO or Marvin Harrison?

Let's say TO's career is over: Here are his numbers-15 years; 1,078 receptions; 15,934 yards; 156 TDs

Harrison-13 years; 1,102 receptions; 14,580 yards; 128 TDs

One a complete loner who often wouldn't even go into team huddles, the other invites the young WRs on the team to live and train with him in the off-season. One of them has thrown almost all his QBs under the bus, the other played with one of the best of all time. One of them has never had a serious issue with the law, the other....curiously involved in a fatal shooting.[/quote]

TO hands down. More yardage on fewer catches and more TD's. One thing you can't deny TO is he got in the end zone better than anyone that's ever played except a couple of players.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808972]NO!
[B]I can't believe that everyone thinks TO is a hall of famer. If the guy was that good why did 3 teams get rid of him in his prime?[/B]

I know, he's got the #s & on the field was great - at times. But to paraphrase Herm Edwards, if the point is to win the game, TO did almost as much to bring his teams down as he did to win games. Should that behavior be discounted just because he made a lot of plays? No, he ultimately was not a winner. Every time his team got close to winning big, he divided the team. His super bowl game exemplifies this; he had a great game, then throws his qb under the bus. The damage was too much to repair in the next season.

Job Performance = your behavior in any manner associated w/your employer & fellow employees.
TO's job performance was great at times, horrendos at others. Don't mistake my point for "off field" issues, different subject altogether. When you talk about your teamates & throw tantrums on the sideline, that is part of what your evaluated on as an employee. TO never carried himself like a hall of famer & will likely end his career like Allen Iverson, w/nobody wanting him.[/quote]

Cause the guy's a major pain in the ass. He pisses off everyone to the point where his talent doesn't even matter.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

T.O. probably spoke the truth more often than not. Unfortunately, speaking the truth does not often make a good teammate

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808996]Actually it did, [B]3 teams[/B] thought so! I won't even count Buffalo, as he was old when he left there. I'll give TO credit for what he's done & I think he should be considered for the hall, but when you analyze his career, he did as much damage to his teams as he did good. Isn't the point of the game to help the team win? By that standard, TO did negate his on-field performance because his employers decided that letting him go was 'addition by subtraction.'

[B]If you want to say the hall is ONLY about career stats, then by that standard, yes, he's got the #s. I would hate it if the hall simply became only about that.[/B][/quote]

Well some people that know a hell of a lot more football than you and I believe the HOF should focus on stats; and believe TO is a HOF'er. I'm just going by what they are saying.

Once again, I agree with some of the things that you are saying, but it is hard to ignore his numbers and how his performance on the field impacted the play of those teams. The HOF voters will make him sweat a year, but he will eventually get in.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;809001]Cause the guy's a major pain in the ass. He pisses off everyone to the point where his talent doesn't even matter.[/quote]

Finally, a voice of reason! Second sentence sums it up - thanks!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;808995]Winning games and Super Bowls cure everything. I'm sure if Irvin was on a losing team, we would have heard some issues. I see what you say about TO, but his performance on the field is HOF worthy. They don't let players into the HOF just because they were "nice guys".

[B]The funny thing is that you have a guy like Art Monk, who had the numbers, but probably wasn't voted into the HOF because he didn't talk to the media.[/quote][/B]

And that's why people in the media shouldn't vote. The people voting should be made up of former players and coaches. If that was the case Monk would've got in asap. Sports writers (like Peter King) have no business voting on the HOF. I'll never forget Peter King saying Danny Weurfel would be the next Kurt Warner. What an idiot.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;808940]He's the one of the few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl, and anyone knows that knows me knows thats about the highest compliment I can give a wideout.

Damn right he's a first ballot hall of famer.

Right now T.O is probably the second best receiver of all time. However I think if Fitz can get a QB one day he'll be passed by Larry. Andre Johnson will also probably surpass T.O one day. No one will ever pass Jerry.

Can anyone imagine how celebrated he would be if it wasn't for all the antics and me first attitude? He has an amazing work ethic and unlike many receivers he's willing to go over the middle, never got in trouble with the law either. Which all to often gets overshadowed by fights with teammates, feuds with QB's/coaches, and overall being a bad teammate.[/quote]


Not sure if I am misunderstanding you but TO never won a superbowl that I can think of. Did you mean he did so much to get them to a superbowl?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;809004]Well some people that know a hell of a lot more football than you and I [B]believe the HOF should focus on stats[/B]; and believe TO is a HOF'er. I'm just going by what they are saying.

Once again, I agree with some of the things that you are saying, but it is hard to ignore his numbers and how his performance on the field impacted the play of those teams. The HOF voters will make him sweat a year, but he will eventually get in.[/quote]

Understood, but that's unfortunate IMO, even though I love stats. Stats just do a poor job of presenting all player contributions in a complex game like football. I actually don't disagree w/your prediction that he gets in, I just think it's a sad statement for the hall. Ultimately, I think TO was more about himself than he was about winning, and as I've stated, history backs that up. He even went to teams that were winning (philly, dallas) & still screwed things up.

If stats are to be the end all be all, all stats will have to be considered. So factor in TO's drops. To his credit he could block, don't think any stats can show that though.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Jontrem;809008]Not sure if I am misunderstanding you but TO never won a superbowl that I can think of. Did you mean he did so much to get them to a superbowl?[/quote]

He said almost won them a SB.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[QUOTE=Dirtbag59;808940]He's the one of the few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl, and anyone knows that knows me knows thats about the highest compliment I can give a wideout.

Damn right he's a first ballot hall of famer.

Right now T.O is probably the second best receiver of all time. However I think if Fitz can get a QB one day he'll be passed by Larry. Andre Johnson will also probably surpass T.O one day. No one will ever pass Jerry.

Can anyone imagine how celebrated he would be if it wasn't for all the antics and me first attitude? He has an amazing work ethic and unlike many receivers he's willing to go over the middle, never got in trouble with the law either. Which all to often gets overshadowed by fights with teammates, feuds with QB's/coaches, and overall being a bad teammate.[/QUOTE

When did TO win a SB?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

first doesnt read well. he said almost. and if you are implying winning a superbowl is a criteria for the HOF, then they really made a big mistake enrolling marino.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809024]He said almost won them a SB.[/quote]

That's not how I read it.

"few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl"

Sounds like he was saying that TO almost won the game single handily like they won the SB.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808979]I think yours is debatable at best. Did TO help them get there - yes. But TO was hurt all through the playoffs & they won w/out him. So that has to be considered.

The 2nd point - "haven't been back since he left" actually reinforces my point. If TO could've kept his mouth shut & been a good teammate, that team might've been able to come back strong the next year.[B] What happened after that was him tearing the team apart to the point that Philly got rid of him while he was still in his prime.[/quote][/B]

And that was a bad thing? LOL

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;808975]Was Art Monk a first ballot guy? While he should have been, sadly, the answer is no.

More than the numbers play into the HOF voting. If I was picking a team of rookies with a crystal ball, I certainly would take Art Monk way head of T.O.[/quote]

I second that and for that matter, I would take Monk over Rice any day.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809024]He said almost won them a SB.[/quote]

On a broken leg!

That's when I began to respect him...even though I was rooting for his team to lose that game. :D

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

No he shouldn't, Cris Carters IMO was better and less of a headcase as Owens (voters will take that into account when voting for him) and he still hasn't gotten in.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Can be easily argued TO is the 2nd greatest WR after Rice ever. Me, I prefer to give that title to Randy Moss, NO ONE was as dominating at WR in their prime IMO. Moss is the greatest deep ball reciever ever by an enormous margin.

Back to the question, TO is a first ballot HOF NO question. Go ahead and a give him biggest Douchebag title as well though.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;808992]Again, I don't think the comparison is valid. Let's distinguish between [I]off the field[/I] or what I would call personal issues, versus behavior that is related to job performance. I'm not even considering personal behavior in this debate, I think the hall has in recent past not considered that too much. Just in terms of performance related to your teams goals, Irvin was so much greater than TO.

[B]Michael Irvin was a winner[/B]. Although he could be a pain for his qb & OC, it was never to the point that dallas wanted to get rid of him. In the end, teams couldn't count on TO. Skip Bayless called it best - TO = "TEam obliterator."[/quote]
so by your logic, if TO had won at least 1 super bowl all would be forgotten, and he gets in easily? and by you quoting that idiot Bayless, your losing any credibilty in this arguement. i cant stand Owens, but your damn right he is hall of fame worthy. contrary to you, it should be all about the stats

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Let me pose a question:

Would you want TO in his prime on your team, knowing that he will cause major problems at some point?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;809034]I second that and for that matter, I would take Monk over Rice any day.[/quote]

Over Rice? I love Monk but let's come back down to reality.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;808933][URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/t-o-should-be-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer-but/"]T.O. should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but . . . . | ProFootballTalk[/URL]

I think he should be without a doubt, his numbers are undeniable, what do you think?[/quote]

He's a free agent ...... should we sign him?

lol, I mean .... look at his numbers. lol.

I would say yes but others will argue about his character which supposedly has nothing to do with or can be considered in picking HOF.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809043]Over Rice? I love Monk but let's come back down to reality.[/quote]

Beat me to it.

In the history of the NFL, ranking for WRs are:

1. Rice
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V
2. Largent
3. Everyone else




Rice is the GOAT and it is not even close.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=firstdown;809028]That's not how I read it.

"few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl"

Sounds like he was saying that TO almost won the game single handily like they won the SB.[/quote]

Maybe the part in parentheses is confusing you, here try this:

"few receivers I can think of that almost single handily won his team a Super Bowl"

Granted it's still poorly worded.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809042]Let me pose a question:

Would you want TO in his prime on your team, knowing that he will cause major problems at some point?[/quote]

If I was a team that was close and needed a big time WR to get over the top, I'd take him for a one year rental only.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809042]Let me pose a question:

Would you want TO in his prime on your team, knowing that he will cause major problems at some point?[/quote]

Thats the question. And I have to say no.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

TO has HOF numbers.
But because of his character I wouldn't vote him into the Freddy Froodle Football Farm of Fame.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;808937]YES Not even a Q.. 2nd best WR I've ever seen.[/quote]


Just curious, who's the best?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=dmek25;809041]so by your logic, [B]if TO had won at least 1 super bowl all would be forgotten[/B], and he gets in easily? and by you quoting that idiot Bayless, your losing any credibilty in this arguement. i cant stand Owens, but your damn right he is hall of fame worthy. [B]contrary to you, it should be all about the stats[/B][/quote]

No, that's not my "logic" at all. I'm calling Irvin a winner by the way he played & his ability to share the spotlight w/other good players, which TO couldn't do. I'd say Irvin was a winner even if Dallas didn't win any super bowls w/him. I'd have the same opinion of TO if he'd won a SB. I'm saying TO was not necessarily a "loser" but he proved over & over that he was more about himself than the team, and his teams paid for it.

On the 2nd bolded point about stats; we just disagree over that, and I would bet there's quite a no. of hall voters, coaches & players that will disagree over it too.

But while we're on stats, here's the most important one to me: No. of times player was traded or released: 3.
The [I]stat[/I] in itself isn't that bad, but knowing why says it all about TO.
btw, regardless of what you think of Bayless, quoting one phrase he coined does not mean I accept all his views & hardly see how I lose all credibility w/that.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;809053]Just curious, who's the best?[/quote]

Uh oh...is that the sound of Don Hutson bandwagon revving up?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809043]Over Rice? I love Monk but let's come back down to reality.[/quote]

I think I agree with you. If given the choice and I can't have both..... I'll take Rice over Monk everyday and twice on Sunday. Monks my boy but Rice is to WR's what D.Green (Skins) was to CB's.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;809034]I second that and for that matter, I would take Monk over Rice any day.[/quote]

You would take Art Monk over Jerry Rice any day?

Should you ever apply for a job as a scout or in a personnel department for any NFL team, be sure to erase completely and permanently that comment from the Internet. That sentence alone will prevent you from getting that job.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809055]Uh oh...is that the sound of Don Hutson bandwagon revving up?[/quote]

NOT at all. Jerry Rice is the best I ever saw but I was curious who someone else might have at #1.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;809052]TO has HOF numbers.
But because of his character I wouldn't vote him into the Freddy Froodle Football Farm of Fame.[/quote]

Well, Character is not supposed to be counted in the decision making. Thats why Monk was not voted in for so long. Supposedly. If it was about character just about everyone said Monk would have been in a long time ago.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

I agree with many of the post on this thread:

1) Media should not be the ones determining who gets in. Current player, former players, current and former coaches and GM's should be the one.

2) TO is a great WR but since he was at times a selfish and disruptive teammate he should go in on his second or third ballot. Not first.

3) Rule Changes - I am tired of hearing some current player is statistically the best ever. Beginning in the 80's through today the rules have been changed to INCREASE offense and TV RATINGS.
TO and other recent WR's and QB's have benefitted statistically from these rule changes.
Back in the day, if the ball was not in the air the WR was going to get hit, held, disrupted from his pass route and timing with the QB. It was legal. Todays WR get a free pass once they are 3 yard off the line of scrimmage compared to past players.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809042]Let me pose a question:

Would you want TO in his prime on your team, knowing that he will cause major problems at some point?[/quote]
his issue with the eagles was money. could have easily been handled by the eagle front office. but they chose to play hard ball. so i guess my answer to your question is yes. the redskins have NEVER had a receiver the caliber of Owens in his prime. closest thing was Taylor

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809055]Uh oh...is that the sound of Don Hutson bandwagon revving up?[/quote]

Tom Fears baby. :silly:

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=dmek25;808978]and how does one "carry" ones self like a hall of famer? like LT? this shouldnt matter at all. hell, a murderer is in the hall[/quote]
While LT was a slimeball off the field, he was a real leader and contributor to his team.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809043]Over Rice? I love Monk but let's come back down to reality.[/quote]

Who did Monk have for QB's and who did Rice have? Monk's #'s with 1 good QB and 2 average QB are impressive, what would he have done with back to back HOF QB's. Don't under estimate Monk.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;809067]Who did Monk have for QB's and who did Rice have? Monk's #'s with 1 good QB and 2 average QB are impressive, what would he have done with back to back HOF QB's. Don't under estimate Monk.[/quote]

Montana had success before Jerry Rice. Steve Young however would not be in the HOF without have the benefit of Rice's talent.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809055]Uh oh...is that the sound of Don Hutson bandwagon revving up?[/quote]
[SIZE=4][B]Fred Biletnikoff[/B][/SIZE] or [SIZE=4][B]Raymond Berry


[/B][/SIZE]I can't decide!