Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;818739]Wow, you really like to hear yourself type, don't you? :D

You are blatantly undervaluing and underestimating Torain. When healthy, he's an explosive runner who is capable of being a Top 15-20 RB in the league. Yes, I just said that. He's a young player, only 24. If he can overcome his early injury troubles and remain on the field for a few years, he'll be as valuable as Portis was for us.

Hightower was not brought here to be a #1 back. He has never held that role before and is not expected to here. He'll likely be a 3rd-down back because of his red zone success and his pass blocking abilities. With the loss or Portis, we needed a new RB who could block when needed. Hightower should fill that role on passing downs. Keiland Williams at FB should also help in that duty.

A Torain/Helu tandem is too valuable to break up for an aging cornerback. If we were to rely on a rookie and a timeshare back going foward, that's risky. Depth at RB, an injury-prone position is more important than acquiring a big name CB who would be marginally-better than other options like Grimes or even Wilson who we already have...without the risk of making a division rival stronger, again.

Also, you claim that the running game is some ancient form of play that has become obsolete...yet teams with strong running games like Baltimore, the Jets, Kansas City, Eagles, Giants and Texans are some of the stronger teams in the league. Even the Patriots ranked higher in rushing (9th) than passing (11th) last year. Rushing teams are not weak, outdated teams destined to failure as you claim.
[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Rankings&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&sort=523&timeframe=]NFL - Statistics by Team - Yahoo! Sports[/url][/quote]First, you can't read. Because you're responding to points I never made. And you're doing that poorly.

No one ever said teams with strong rushing games don't do better than teams with weak rushing games. However, you've tried to prove that non-assertion correct, and did a horrible job, using team rushing YPG as evidence.

If you were better at reading, you might have tried to prove that Ryan Torain actually could contribute to a strong rushing team. You may have either found yourself to be wrong (unlikely), or you might have made a case based on some flimsy evidence and high on personal attacks (more likely).

Your case, in logical format:

1) Ryan Torain is just 24 years old.
2) Ryan Torain is capable being a Top 15 to Top 20 NFL runner
3) Ryan Torain can overcome early career injury troubles to become a top 15 to 20 runner.
4) Tim Hightower is being brought in to play on third downs, with Torain on first and second downs.

Conclusion:
5) If you break up a Helu/Torain tandem, your team will lose more because of it.

Points 3+4 kind of decrease the likelihood that you are right on Torain's upside. But I think you're biggest mistake is that you're treating Torain's 24 as young, without giving the same benefit of youth to the other RBs on the Redskins roster who don't have obvious injury issues. Torain is not younger than the average Redskins RB. And he is not likely to play 16 weeks on the Redskins roster this year.

Given all the above, it would seem foolish to hold him in higher regard than someone like Jeremy Jarmon, who was a third round draft pick and just 24 years old when Washington traded him this offseason. But on the difference of opinion regarding Torain's upside: to each their own.

I would just point out to reach upside, opportunity to do so must be abundant. As a Shanahan RB, I'm not sure why Torain would get enough opportunities to reach that upside while every other player rots on the bench.

An assertion I can make, all else equal: [B]a Helu/Keiland tandem is stronger in both youth and ability than a Torain/Helu tandem.[/B]

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

straight up trade samuels for buchanon? lol

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=tomsawyer;818754]straight up trade samuels for buchanon? lol[/quote]

Great idea. The Skins get a better CB AND Samuels is younger than Buchanon so the team can get younger at the same time.


Quick, get Joe Banner on the phone and see if he's interested...

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Nah, I'm actually pretty happy with what we've done this offseason. We are going younger, future rather than bigger, now. I'd rather remain consistent than make a trade for Samuel which runs contrary to all of our other moves.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

the eagles should just thrown in a reacharound and send him to us for nothing after selling us on that mcnabb trade last year!

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Paintrain;818792]Nah, I'm actually pretty happy with what we've done this offseason. We are going younger, future rather than bigger, now. I'd rather remain consistent than make a trade for Samuel which runs contrary to all of our other moves.[/quote]

Another great point...we've done a lot of work to cut our the older and declining players (like Samuel) from our roster to get younger.

Continuing that route can only benefit the team long-term. If we were one CB away from contention...go ahead and deal for Samuel (without giving up our starting RB). We're a few years away...better to go with youth.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

it would be different if we are one player away from a super bowl,but we are'nt so we should just leave things as they are.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818649]Well, first, I think Torain is in that "traded because he won't make the team" category along with Holliday and Jarmon.....

[B]A runner who is useless to us[/B] and a third round pick seems like a good price for a guy who would be our no. 1 CB.[/quote]First off, in our current situation (rebuilding) no way I trade for Samuel.

I don't think Torain fits into the same category as VH and Jarmon. VH is an older player and we just signed two expensive FAs on the interior DL. VH was expendable. Jarmon doesn't fit our scheme, he's more of a 4-3 end, not big/strong enough to play 3-4 DE, not quick/mobile enough to play LB.

Torain has value for the Skins and is certainly not useless. Not sure why you're so down on him. He's a consistent runner who can move the chains and carry the ball 18-24 times per game. He had some very nice games for us last year. Doesn't appear to have a fumbling problem. Can get in the end zone. Doesn't get tripped up by long blades of grass (sorry, had to throw in a cheap shot at Portis). He averaged 4.5 YPC and the team average was 4.2 YPC. He and Hightower are the only two backs on the roster that have over 70 carries in the NFL (KW has 65 and only carried more than six times in an NFL game twice, those two games Torain was out). Torain was 13th in the NFL in YPC.

RT needs to work very hard on pass blocking, but if a RB has the "want to" he will improve his pass blocking. It can be taught.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Hmmm wonder if Darrell Green will come out of retirement... seems hes old but probably faster and better. or has a HoF member ever come back to play or are they not allowed after retiring for 5+yrs

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;818858][B]Torain has value for the Skins and is certainly not useless[/B]. Not sure why you're so down on him. [U]He's a consistent runner who can move the chains and carry the ball 18-24 times per game.[/U] He had some very nice games for us last year. Doesn't appear to have a fumbling problem. Can get in the end zone. Doesn't get tripped up by long blades of grass (sorry, had to throw in a cheap shot at Portis). He averaged 4.5 YPC and the team average was 4.2 YPC. He and Hightower are the only two backs on the roster that have over 70 carries in the NFL (KW has 65 and only carried more than six times in an NFL game twice, those two games Torain was out). Torain was 13th in the NFL in YPC.[/quote]I wasn't aware that someone that loses yardage on three out of ten carries can wear the "consistent" label. That's...a really, really low bar. In fact, 100% of NFL running backs qualify as consistent. No running play is a bad running play!

Well, okay. I'll halfheartedly buy the bolded argument. I don't see him as a Top 15 to 20 back in the league, but for this Skins team, fine. Someone has to carry the ball besides Helu.

Maybe I was wrong about Hightower. I suggested that Hightower was going to force Torain off the roster. Maybe its the opposite. Hightower will play on the punt team and cover kicks and that actually saves Torain's bacon.

Not an optimal use of our personnel, but if we're more focused on Torain's YPC average than doing what it takes to win, yeah, I could see that.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

But it's not like we couldn't have found Jarmon a spot on this team if we really tried. Point is, we weren't going to really try: he was going to get cut. Torain may get the benefit of the doubt because he was a Shanahan acquisition (aka a "good player" in the eyes of the FO) instead of a Cerrato acquisition (not always a good player).

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818921]But it's not like we couldn't have found Jarmon a spot on this team if we really tried. Point is, we weren't going to really try: he was going to get cut. Torain may get the benefit of the doubt because he was a Shanahan acquisition (aka a "good player" in the eyes of the FO) instead of a Cerrato acquisition (not always a good player).[/quote]

Well we tried finding Jarmon a spot on the field all season last year. Asked him to drop wait to play OLB, he didn't fit there, asked him to add weight to play 3-4 DE, he didn't fit there either. He's better as a 4-3 guy, he wasn't going to fit in here, so they offloaded him.

Torain was productive when he played. Even given that he lost yardage on some plays, he was still on track to rush for 1,200 yards if he played all 16 games. I'm less concerned with his production, which could go up with better offensive line play, and more with his health. But by no means is he a useless player. We're trying to build a core of guys, and to not give Torain a shot to be a starter given the fact that he was productive when he played in a bad situation.

And when Terrell Davis came to camp last season, he explained the situation perfectly; it's going to be an ugly one yarder, an ugly 4 yard gain, an ugly 2 yard, and then you're going to pop a big run. That's pretty much what happened with Torain last season.

Also, I'm not as high on Helu as others. For some reason, I feel like Royster's going to beat him out. Just the vibes I get coming out of camp tweets and the like.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Darrell_Green_28;818907]Hmmm wonder if Darrell Green will come out of retirement... seems hes old but probably faster and better. or has a HoF member ever come back to play or are they not allowed after retiring for 5+yrs[/quote]

Darrell Green has about the same chance of returning to the NFL - - the Redskins more specifically - - as an active player as Oprah Winfrey has of becoming an NFL running back.

The two operative words here are :
[INDENT]1. NOT

2. HAPPENING!![/INDENT]

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I just saw the eagles signed Oprah

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

First I would ask my Defensive coach what he thought about him.. And after Haslett says he isn't a bump and run corner, and the fact that we blitz a ton and will again this year and the fact that Samuel plays off 10 to 12 yards every play and get dominated at the line if he plays close....I am sure he'd so NAH...we are good at corner

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I would trade a 4th and 5th rounder but that is it.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818919]I wasn't aware that someone that loses yardage on three out of ten carries can wear the "consistent" label. That's...a really, really low bar. In fact, 100% of NFL running backs qualify as consistent. No running play is a bad running play![/quote]Torain actually had less than 1/5 runs as negative plays (18.2%) and most were for -1. As NLC mentioned, the negative runs are a nature of the ZB scheme. When the OL is taking lateral steps, sometimes folks get blown up into the backfield. And let's not forget our OL play last year would ceratinly be considered "less than stellar".

[quote]Well, okay. I'll halfheartedly buy the bolded argument. I don't see him as a Top 15 to 20 back in the league, but for this Skins team, fine. Someone has to carry the ball besides Helu.[/quote]As I mentioned, top 15 in YPC. Hard to argue that behind the Skins OL.

[quote]Not an optimal use of our personnel, but if we're more focused on Torain's YPC average than doing what it takes to win, yeah, I could see that.[/quote]Not sure who on our roster would be better carrying the ball than RT. No one has proven anything except for Hightower, and he's not an 18-24 carry per game back. Unless one of the youngsters performs tremendously in pre-season I don't see how the argument can be made that anyone other than RT should be the primary back.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;819202]Torain actually had less than 1/5 runs as negative plays (18.2%) and most were for -1. As NLC mentioned, the negative runs are a nature of the ZB scheme. When the OL is taking lateral steps, sometimes folks get blown up into the backfield. And let's not forget our OL play last year would ceratinly be considered "less than stellar".

As I mentioned, top 15 in YPC. Hard to argue that behind the Skins OL.

Not sure who on our roster would be better carrying the ball than RT. No one has proven anything except for Hightower, and he's not an 18-24 carry per game back. Unless one of the youngsters performs tremendously in pre-season I don't see how the argument can be made that anyone other than RT should be the primary back.[/quote]Those numbers simply do not match the play by play for the season. Do you have a link? I don't have my notebook on me, but I think I had Torain at 27% or something. I did the comparison to Portis and Keiland Williams, and found that neither was anywhere close to Torain in terms of lost yardage. Unequivocally, I believe this to be a problem isolated to Torain, not a scheme or offensive line issue.

I don't care about his YPC when the distribution of runs sucks. Call me when he gets to 5.5. If he's anywhere as consistent as you say, adding a yard per carry should be a breeze. Just break like two long runs and cut out the 4 and 5 yard losses. At that point, he's one of the better RBs in the league.

I think any running back on our roster deserves a shot now that we've seen what Torain can do.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Dolphins signed Ronnie Brown...there goes the Torain trade. :D

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

no I would not. The backlash of being fleeced by Philly twice in Public opinion would most likely get me fired. I shopping the players in free agency who thought they'd have a deal by now.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;819244]Those numbers simply do not match the play by play for the season. Do you have a link? I don't have my notebook on me, but I think I had Torain at 27% or something. I did the comparison to Portis and Keiland Williams, and found that neither was anywhere close to Torain in terms of lost yardage.

I don't care about his YPC when the distribution of runs sucks. Call me when he gets to 5.5. If he's anywhere as consistent as you say, adding a yard per carry should be a breeze. Just break like two long runs and cut out the 4 and 5 yard losses. At that point, he's one of the better RBs in the league.

I think any running back on our roster deserves a shot now that we've seen what Torain can do.[/quote]

[B]Now that we've seen what Torain can do? Wow.[/B]

I stand by my question to you, the self-proclaimed game-film guru...have you watched any Redskins games? Behind arguably the worst O-line in football, Torain made some great runs that were all on his own abilities without much help in front of him.


[quote=GTripp0012;818921]But it's not like we couldn't have found Jarmon a spot on this team if we really tried. Point is, we weren't going to really try: he was going to get cut. Torain may get the benefit of the doubt because he was a Shanahan acquisition (aka a "good player" in the eyes of the FO) instead of a Cerrato acquisition (not always a good player).[/quote]


We tried. We also tried with Andre Carter, Rocky McIntosh and every other 4-3 defender who proved that they were not fit for the 3-4.

We can all thank God you're not running the team. ;)

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;819249][B]Now that we've seen what Torain can do? Wow.[/B]

I stand by my question to you, the self-proclaimed game-film guru...have you watched any Redskins games? Behind arguably the worst O-line in football, Torain made some great runs that were all on his own abilities without much help in front of him.





We tried. We also tried with Andre Carter, Rocky McIntosh and every other 4-3 defender who proved that they were not fit for the 3-4.

We can all thank God you're not running the team. ;)[/quote]Let's put it this way: if I did not watch a second of Redskins football this upcoming season, I would still understand what happened a lot better than you would. You strike me as the clueless type.

Calling the Redskins O-Line last year "arguably the worst in football" shows a very poor understanding of the world outside of the Redskins. May we all speak so confidently in hyperbole as to hope that no one is actually able to read and comprehend what we are actually saying.

The offensive line has a ways to go, but if it was arguably the worst in football, I don't think you could possibly be excited about it now that four of the five guys are back, and we added Chester.

Actually as it turns out, other teams have bad offensive lines too. Who knew?

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Keep in mind, Rabach was here, plus we had a lot of injuries to Trent Williams, Jammal Brown and by the time Torain took over for Portis, we had a patchwork offensive line already, so your "4 out of 5 back" statement is not completely true...those 4 did not play all season and the one we lost actually upgrades the line by removing him. Let me guess, you're a Rabach fan too. :D

I'm not the only person who noticed the Skins line was bad last season:


[url=http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go]NFL Stats: by Team Category[/url]
ACTUAL STATS, ranked 28th overall, yielded 46 QB sacks (5th most) and a LEAGUE-WORST 110 QB hits.

[URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol"]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 OFFENSIVE LINES[/URL]
30th in run blocking, 24th in pass blocking

[URL="http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/article.cfm?article_id=630"]Offensive Line Rankings[/URL]
32nd overall

[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-olinerankings061810"]O-line rankings: Talent and depth rare finds - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/URL]
29th overall

[URL="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/07/12/2010-offensive-line-rankings-part-1/"]2010 Offensive Line Rankings - Part 1 | ProFootballFocus.com[/URL]
28th overall, Run Rank 25th, Pass Rank 28th, Penalties Rank 26th




Again, I don't understand you. You call ME clueless but you're defending the horrible O-line from last season and then degrade Torain's abilties so much that you'd trade him to a division rival for an aging CB?

You better have your house checked for radon.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;819274]Keep in mind, Rabach was here, plus we had a lot of injuries to Trent Williams, Jammal Brown and by the time Torain took over for Portis, we had a patchwork offensive line already, so your "4 out of 5 back" statement is not completely true...those 4 did not play all season and the one we lost actually upgrades the line by removing him. Let me guess, you're a Rabach fan too. :D

I'm not the only person who noticed the Skins line was bad last season:


[URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol"]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 OFFENSIVE LINES[/URL]
30th in run blocking, 24th in pass blocking[/quote]LOL. Talk about not being able to read. That says 24th in run blocking and 22nd in pass blocking. Carolina, Arizona, and Chicago were in-arguably worse up front last year, and Pittsburgh was probably not quite as good as we were. After that, if you really hated our OL enough to argue that they were just 28th best in the league, then go for it. Just don't bring your biases into my Torain argument. I don't want them here.

You also managed to grab [B]a before the season ranking[/B] of OL in your analysis of 2010 OLs. I could tell you which one it was, but I'm going to be be a jerk and make you go and actually read your own links.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I'm confused. I keep reading the original post and I just don't see where it says let's drag everyone into a "I'm smarter than you" conversation on whose stats do the better job of proving Torain's worth, or lack thereof.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;819244]Those numbers simply do not match the play by play for the season. Do you have a link? I don't have my notebook on me, but I think I had Torain at 27% or something. I did the comparison to Portis and Keiland Williams, and found that neither was anywhere close to Torain in terms of lost yardage. Unequivocally, I believe this to be a problem isolated to Torain, not a scheme or offensive line issue.

I don't care about his YPC when the distribution of runs sucks. Call me when he gets to 5.5. If he's anywhere as consistent as you say, adding a yard per carry should be a breeze. Just break like two long runs and cut out the 4 and 5 yard losses. At that point, he's one of the better RBs in the league.

I think any running back on our roster deserves a shot now that we've seen what Torain can do.[/quote]You may want to check the notebook, the Play-by-Play numbers come from Yahoo's game logs. I reviewed each game for 2010. Portis was 54/227/4.2 with 6 neg runs (11%), KW was 65/261/4.0 with 9 neg runs (13.8%).

While RT's neg run % is slightly higher, his higher YPC justifies the neg runs. Keep in mind last year was RT's first season of action and I expect improvement not only in his performance, but in that of the OL. You can't ignore one stat (YPC) and then rely completely on neg run %. RT isn't Chris Johnson with absurd breakaway speed and long runs of 50+, or Barry Sanders who would get neg runs all the time. RT can be a primary back and in his second year in the system, he'll improve.

Until someone steps up and takes the primary RB role (or RT can't stay healthy) it is RT's to lose.

EDIT: To SS's point.....no way I'd package RT in a trade for A. Samuel.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;819294]I'm confused. I keep reading the original post and I just don't see where it says let's drag everyone into a "I'm smarter than you" conversation on whose stats do the better job of proving Torain's worth, or lack thereof.[/quote]Tell me about it...

I can help you be less confused though: Monkeydad has to keep wildly changing the subject in an attempt to show both his passion for football and his limited grasp on literacy. It's all very amusing to me.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Fight fight fight fight!!!!!!

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;819306]You may want to check the notebook, the Play-by-Play numbers come from Yahoo's game logs. I reviewed each game for 2010. Portis was 54/227/4.2 with 6 neg runs (11%), KW was 65/261/4.0 with 9 neg runs (13.8%).

While RT's neg run % is slightly higher, his higher YPC justifies the neg runs. Keep in mind last year was RT's first season of action and I expect improvement not only in his performance, but in that of the OL. You can't ignore one stat (YPC) and then rely completely on neg run %. RT isn't Chris Johnson with absurd breakaway speed and long runs of 50+, or Barry Sanders who would get neg runs all the time. RT can be a primary back and in his second year in the system, he'll improve.

Until someone steps up and takes the primary RB role (or RT can't stay healthy) it is RT's to lose.[/quote]Okay, I probably just have my baselines wildly wrong. I said 3/10 carries lost yards. That was factually incorrect. It was much closer to 2/10.

It doesn't change my argument any: it's still an obscenely high amount compared to the team average. Torain still is nothing if inconsistent from carry to carry and even from quarter to quarter. But it's still a pretty inexcusable error on my part to miss by 10%.

I am not ignoring his high YPC average, I am just pointing out that the distribution of his runs leans heavily towards ineffectiveness. And it's telling to me that a vocal minority has been unwilling to accept that point while most of the people reading this thread are thinking to themselves "yeah, Torain is pretty boom-or-bust from what I remember."

I'm surprised that no one has tried to piggyback on JR's argument that chain moving RBs are valuable. I know you mentioned it, but if I was trying to build the case for Torain as a starting NFL RB, that's where I'd begin.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

So much built up labor dispute tension. Season is starting real soon folks! I promise it will be alright.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

From a tape-watching perspective, it's obvious to me that Torain has some of the worst vision I've ever seen in a running back for the Washington Redskins. That hasn't prevented him from breaking tackles and ripping off yards when the blocking is there (and even sometimes when its not there), but as you all know, that's only part of the story.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;819324]From a tape-watching perspective, it's obvious to me that Torain has some of the worst vision I've ever seen in a running back for the Washington Redskins. That hasn't prevented him from breaking tackles and ripping off yards when the blocking is there (and even sometimes when its not there), but as you all know, that's only part of the story.[/quote]LOL on "vocal minority".

IMO the field vision problem isn't so much of a vision problem, but more of a learning the system and the speed of the NFL game. As you mention, the raw talent is there (breaking tackles/ripping off yards). As the OL becomes more stable/consistent and he gets coached up, he'll be able to read and anticipate where the running lanes will be and eliminate the neg runs. Obviously a bit of cautious optimism here, but certainly worth it based on the flashes we saw last year.....or I could be completely wrong, RT stinks up the joint, and we trade him away for a conditional 6th rd pick in 2015. :)

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;819394]LOL on "vocal minority".

IMO the field vision problem isn't so much of a vision problem, but more of a learning the system and the speed of the NFL game. As you mention, the raw talent is there (breaking tackles/ripping off yards). As the OL becomes more stable/consistent and he gets coached up, he'll be able to read and anticipate where the running lanes will be and eliminate the neg runs. Obviously a bit of cautious optimism here, but certainly worth it based on the flashes we saw last year.....or I could be completely wrong, RT stinks up the joint, and we trade him away for a conditional 6th rd pick in 2015. :)[/quote]Okay. Sounds like common ground. Or something close to it.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;819394]LOL on "vocal minority".

[B]IMO the field vision problem isn't so much of a vision problem, but more of a learning the system and the speed of the NFL game. [/B]As you mention, the raw talent is there (breaking tackles/ripping off yards). As the OL becomes more stable/consistent and he gets coached up, he'll be able to read and anticipate where the running lanes will be and eliminate the neg runs. Obviously a bit of cautious optimism here, but certainly worth it based on the flashes we saw last year.....or I could be completely wrong, RT stinks up the joint, and we trade him away for a conditional 6th rd pick in 2015. :)[/quote]

To me that's the question, can he be "coached up". Let's not forget, he wasn't a rookie. He's been through camps and in games before. GTripp was making the same arguments about his vision last year and, even though I am not a "tape watcher", I looked at how he performed on his runs. Often (it seemed to me) his neg. runs were b/c the line was just blown up and he was being hit early.

At the same time, and, again, as I watched it, Torrain missed seemingly obvious open lanes that would have gotten positive yards. More telling, once he was past the line of scrimmage and beyond the initial blocking scheme, it appeared he consistently made bad cuts which limited his runs. Either he had really bad instincts or was just not seeing what was happening more than a yard in front of him. It appearred to me that he left a lot of yards on the field.

He seems to have good burst and strength to get the positive yards necessary to move the chains (there you go GTripp). In turn this forces the D to tighten up and open up the passing lanes. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, but in a [I]Kyle[/I] Shanny offense - the run exists to keep the D honest, not be the game winner. Torrain does that and does it well. You cannot ignore him, back off the line and/or play straight pass D. B/c the more spread the field, the easier it is for a back - even if they have bad vision - to hit a hole any hole, for positive yards. Given his burst and strength, if he hits a decent hole hard, he will rip a 10 yard run and chew up the clock.

If it is not a vision problem, however, and just a 'getting up to speed/better O-Line problem', then look out b/c with healthy and with good decision making, he will be a serious top 5 in the league stud.

Now, please feel free to rip apart my uneducated, ill-informed, non-notebook recorded observations and opinions.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;819446]If it is not a vision problem, however, and just a 'getting up to speed/better O-Line problem', then look out b/c with healthy and with good decision making, he will be a serious top 5 in the league stud.

Now, please feel free to rip apart my uneducated, ill-informed, non-notebook recorded observations and opinions.[/quote]Yeah, I've got nothing. Good post.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Its better to watch him run in a tackle then to watch CP trip over his own two feet when he was wide open.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;819434]Okay. Sounds like common ground. Or something close to it.[/quote]I always like to review areas where we disagree cause I know you watch the tape too. I like to see a different informed perspective, keeps me on my toes. :food-smil

EDIT: It sure is nice to argue about football again.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;819446]To me that's the question, can he be "coached up". Let's not forget, he wasn't a rookie. He's been through camps and in games before. [/quote]He only played in 2 games in 2008 (total of 16 carries). He's esentially going into his soph season.

good summary/post, with RT it all boils down to health and reading the plays better with a year in the O under his belt. He does and yep, he'll be a top 15 back. He doesn't, and he won't be worth a conditional 6th in 2015.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I'm the Skins GM?
I'm sending Vinnie Cerrato a....letter bomb...............

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Outing Alert!!!


Hog 1 is actually Ted Kaczynski posting from a Federal pen in Colorado...