Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=saden1;820923]This country has a financial structure problem. [B]One side doesn't want entitlement cuts and wants to raise social spending, the other doesn't want to cut defense spending or raise taxes.[/B] Our political system is straight out of The Wire.

S&P is doing this country a favor over the long run by downgrading its rating.[/quote]

and each are instransigent on these absolutely incompatible goals. The only thing the compromise on is - "let's just spend more money".

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;820925]Why are we in the mess that we are in then? Who votes to spend the money like water? How could we not be downgraded when we are the worst nation on the planet in terms of total debt(rank 191 out of 191 nation states). Do you really think that our credit staying AAA wasn't due to politics? This nation should have been downgraded in 2008 or even before that. Do you really think this debt ceiling being raised is going to cure our ills? WE are going to default eventually, that is inevitable. Do you want to default down $14 trillion or say $20-24 trillion? Both parties are playing politics and are more concerned about getting reelected and pushing back financial armageddon til after the elections of 2012. S&P has every right to complain about our nations dysfunctional political system, for it is the main reason we are in this mess to begin with. Both parties are just two wings of the mega party that runs things in the US. [B]Both wings are commanded by the same NE elites that run the banks and multinational corporations. Our Supreme Court also is dysfunctional, as it is on the take, along with the members of the House and Senate. Obama's cabinet is mostly Goldman Sach's flunkies. Everyone on Capitol Hill is owned by the Wall St banks. Do ou think re electing Obama is going to make things better? Romney? It will be business as usual whoever wins in 2012, as they are owned by the same people[/B].[/quote]

Sorry, I don't buy the "it's a conspiracy" part of the rant. It's been done before and will be done again. ("it's the Northeastern elite, it's the Jews, it's the Federal Reserve, it's the oil companies, etc.).

There are real philosophical differences about balancing the rights of the group v. the rights of individuals between the parties. Unfortunately, instead of intelligent debate about how those two interests should be balanced in order to fix the economy, both sides cater to the outer edges (not necessarily fringe) of their constintuencies and end up with a "Yeah Us!" platform that, in turn, leads to the gridlock saden1 so succinctly stated earlier.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

Gus, if you read my post and several others in threads elsewhere we probably agree on more than we disagree. Actually, I think that's the case more often than not around here on Warpath but that's another story.

Secondly a rating agency, such as S&P, has no business whatsoever issuing a rating on our nation's credit worthiness based on the politics of the moment. They shouldn't do it today, they shouldn't do it tomorrow, they shouldn't do it ever. Besides we're talking about S&P, the same company that just three years ago handed out AAA ratings to failed banks and mortgage lenders like they were going out of style. So I find their recent track record a little suspect at best. As far as I'm concerned this downgrade is symbolic more than anything else and the good old U.S. of A. will keep on trucking.

In terms of who's the blame? There's plenty of that to go around and without getting into which party was right or wrong, all I know is since 1962 the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times, about once every eight months. Often times with little or no fanfare. But this year, for some reason, it became the laser focus of some members of Congress to the extent it brought us to the brink of default. Just to be clear the debt ceiling has nothing to due with future spending levels. We raise the debt ceiling to cover spending appropriated in the previous Congress. In other words, many of the politicians that were calling for drastic spending cuts and austerity measures are on record voting for the very bills that they now oppose in principle. Take from that whatever you will.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=saden1;820923]This country has a financial structure problem. One side doesn't want entitlement cuts and wants to raise social spending, the other doesn't want to cut defense spending or raise taxes. Our political system is straight out of The Wire.

S&P is doing this country a favor over the long run by downgrading its rating.[/quote]Agree 100%. This downgrade may be what slaps some level of economic sense into DC.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

Fannie and Freddie now downgraded (I'm amazed that didn't happen a few years ago). Are individual states next?

[url=http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_RATING_SP?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-08-10-36-17]News from The Associated Press[/url]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=GMScud;821028]Fannie and Freddie now downgraded (I'm amazed that didn't happen a few years ago). Are individual states next?

[URL="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_RATING_SP?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-08-10-36-17"]News from The Associated Press[/URL][/quote]

Just aske old Barney Frank.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSDnGMzIdo]‪Democrats were WARNED of Financial crisis and did NOTHING‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;820931]Gus, if you read my post and several others in threads elsewhere we probably agree on more than we disagree. Actually, I think that's the case more often than not around here on Warpath but that's another story.

[B]Secondly a rating agency, such as S&P, has no business whatsoever issuing a rating on our nation's credit worthiness based on the politics of the moment. They shouldn't do it today, they shouldn't do it tomorrow, they shouldn't do it ever. Besides we're talking about S&P, the same company that just three years ago handed out AAA ratings to failed banks and mortgage lenders like they were going out of style. So I find their recent track record a little suspect at best. As far as I'm concerned this downgrade is symbolic more than anything else and the good old U.S. of A. will keep on trucking. [/B]
In terms of who's the blame? There's plenty of that to go around and without getting into which party was right or wrong, all I know is since 1962 the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times, about once every eight months. Often times with little or no fanfare. But this year, for some reason, it became the laser focus of some members of Congress to the extent it brought us to the brink of default. Just to be clear the debt ceiling has nothing to due with future spending levels. We raise the debt ceiling to cover spending appropriated in the previous Congress. In other words, many of the politicians that were calling for drastic spending cuts and austerity measures are on record voting for the very bills that they now oppose in principle. Take from that whatever you will.[/quote]

I disagree vehemently with this point. Our political arena has made it impossible for either side of the aisle to be any more than whiny brats. They no longer care about what's best for the country. It seems like most of their effort is put towards trying to bring the other side down than to bind together to bring us up. Both sides need to make concessions in order to make this work, and they simply aren't doing it. That type of political environment directly relates to confidence and the economy. Watching the way they handled both the government shutdown and the debt ceiling was absolutely appauling to me.

I think we're starting to see why a republic has never lasted 250 years before. It gets so convoluted. The laws and rules become outdated and useless. Personally, I'd love to see campaigns limited to certain amounts, that are put there by the tax payers. No more private interests in campaigning. I hate when I saw a completely unrelated law tacked to a bill that virtually can't fail to get it pushed through when it couldn't pass on its own merit. Vote on one issue at a time, etc.

I know that my views of politics are very simplistic, but more complicated doesn't always mean better.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

The problem with our system is quite easy to identify. Politicians do not answer to constituents...they answer to their party. Politicians who are not part of a party have an insane uphill battle to election. All this talk of compromise at the political level is hogwash. None of them can be trusted to to what's right (compromise or not)...they only do what is needed to stay elected. Now back to the credit rating that 12th seems to think isn't important contrary to the rest of society (as indicated by the markets reaction).

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821147]The problem with our system is quite easy to identify. Politicians do not answer to constituents...they answer to their party. Politicians who are not part of a party have an insane uphill battle to election.[B] All this talk of compromise at the political level is hogwash. None of them can be trusted to to what's right (compromise or not)...they only do what is needed to stay elected.[/B] Now back to the credit rating that 12th seems to think isn't important contrary to the rest of society (as indicated by the markets reaction).[/quote]

This.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

FRPLG, I didn't say the credit rating wasn't important. A credit rating agency, in my opinion, should issue downgrades or upgrades based on economic data; The models and metrics they've been using since the company was founded. Not politics. If you think I believe that the credit rating is somehow trivial, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Daseal, your post summed up exactly what my post said, except the part about the S&P. I maintain, they are a credit rating agency that issues ratings which forecast the credit worthiness of America's sovereign debt and it's ability to service said debt. Period. That's it. They have no business, whatsoever, making one mention of either party by name. I don't care if the White House is set on fire by the Tea Party tomorrow, S&P should stay the f*ck out of our political discussion and shouldn't issue debt forecasts based on the politics of the moment.

But if you want to take their downgrade for what it said, fine. I'm curious about where you stand on them calling for a raise of revenues three separate times; a position that one party was more than willing to accept as a part of an overall package, but there were no suitors on the other side of the aisle. They've pretty much said until revenues are a part of the mix, among other things, they stand by their downgrade.

What's more interesting is that market tanked another 600 points today, but treasuries held their own as investors fled for stability. That tells us two things: The market doesn't see inflation around the corner and it believes, contrary to the downgrade, that treasuries and bonds are a safe haven for investors for the immediate future.

[I][B]With so much uncertainty, investors were leaving little to chance. Despite the downgrade of U.S. debt, Treasury prices rose, pushing yields lower, as investors fled into the relative safety of government-backed debt.

The yield on the benchmark 10-year U.S. Treasury fell to 2.34% from 2.56% late Friday.

"The Treasury market seems to be oblivious to the fact the U.S.' credit rating was downgraded," said Quincy Krosby, market strategist with Prudential Financial.[/B][/I]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

In response to the S&P downgrade, Rep. Eric Cantor.

[url=http://thehill.com/homenews/house/175965-cantor-urges-gop-to-resist-tax-hikes-after-downgrade]Cantor urges GOP to resist tax hike pressure after S&P downgrade - TheHill.com[/url]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

One of Cantor's comments from the quoted article:

"Our country currently faces two very serious crises — debt and jobs,” Cantor wrote. “These two crises are not mutually exclusive, but they are equally dangerous. That is why it is absolutely critical that as policies are developed to overcome each, we consider their impact upon each other. Anything less would be negligent.”

Regardless of anything else, I think that succinctly states the issue facing us. Any problem has to deal with [I]both[/I] issues. Off the top of my head, I got nothing.

[QUOTE=12thMan;821163]In response to the S&P downgrade, Rep. Eric Cantor.

[url=http://thehill.com/homenews/house/175965-cantor-urges-gop-to-resist-tax-hikes-after-downgrade]Cantor urges GOP to resist tax hike pressure after S&P downgrade - TheHill.com[/url][/QUOTE]

See the stubborness of the republicans (and tea party) is ridiculous to me. Dems are more than willing to make cuts to entitlement programs and spending why can't they come across the partisan barrier and give a bit? Spending cuts only go so far.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821147]The problem with our system is quite easy to identify. Politicians do not answer to constituents...they answer to their [b]campaign contributors[/b] (major ones by businesses). [/quote]


I fixed this for you to better reflect the truth.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=hooskins;821177]See the stubborness of the republicans (and tea party) is ridiculous to me. Dems are more than willing to make cuts to entitlement programs and spending why can't they come across the partisan barrier and give a bit? Spending cuts only go so far.[/quote]
If the democrats are so willing to tackle the debt issue, why didn't they do it when they had the super majority last year? It's not like the debt wasn't a giant problem then either. I'm not saying the republicans aren't a big part of the problem too. They added trillions of dollars of debt, but the democrats have only made the problem worse since they took over congress in 2006.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

So the S&P might be called to testify before Congress. The gloves are about to come off. This is getting ugly.

[url=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/60909.html]S&P investigated by Senate Banking Committee - Josh Boak - POLITICO.com[/url]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;820930]Sorry, I don't buy the "it's a conspiracy" part of the rant. It's been done before and will be done again. ("it's the Northeastern elite, it's the Jews, it's the Federal Reserve, it's the oil companies, etc.)..[/quote]

Why do you think it's a "conspiracy" that corporations do in fact control our government? The lobbying industry is a billion dollar industry for a reason. Corporations don't hand over hundreds (or millions) of dollars in campaign money for no reason.


So you think its a coincidence that the same guys that are running the Federal Reserve and Treasury department worked in a crooked Wall Street environment (and who's very own misguided actions led to the downfall of the banking industry) are now controlling our nations economy? lol....

Nope, the media would surely rat these things out! Yep, the same media who's income is also depended on by these very corporations.

[YT]trWcqxrQgcc&NR=1[/YT]


It's no conspiracy.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821158][B]FRPLG, I didn't say the credit rating wasn't important. A credit rating agency, in my opinion, should issue downgrades or upgrades based on economic data; The models and metrics they've been using since the company was founded. Not politics. If you think I believe that the credit rating is somehow trivial, then I don't know what else to tell you. [/B]

Daseal, your post summed up exactly what my post said, except the part about the S&P. I maintain, they are a credit rating agency that issues ratings which forecast the credit worthiness of America's sovereign debt and it's ability to service said debt. Period. That's it. They have no business, whatsoever, making one mention of either party by name. I don't care if the White House is set on fire by the Tea Party tomorrow, S&P should stay the f*ck out of our political discussion and shouldn't issue debt forecasts based on the politics of the moment.

But if you want to take their downgrade for what it said, fine. I'm curious about where you stand on them calling for a raise of revenues three separate times; a position that one party was more than willing to accept as a part of an overall package, but there were no suitors on the other side of the aisle. They've pretty much said until revenues are a part of the mix, among other things, they stand by their downgrade.

What's more interesting is that market tanked another 600 points today, but treasuries held their own as investors fled for stability. That tells us two things: The market doesn't see inflation around the corner and it believes, contrary to the downgrade, that treasuries and bonds are a safe haven for investors for the immediate future.

[I][B]With so much uncertainty, investors were leaving little to chance. Despite the downgrade of U.S. debt, Treasury prices rose, pushing yields lower, as investors fled into the relative safety of government-backed debt.

The yield on the benchmark 10-year U.S. Treasury fell to 2.34% from 2.56% late Friday.

"The Treasury market seems to be oblivious to the fact the U.S.' credit rating was downgraded," said Quincy Krosby, market strategist with Prudential Financial.[/B][/I][/quote]

News alert...it doesn't matter how you THINK they should make the decisions. Your post was dismissive of the event. In the world of reality they made a downgrade and it f*cking matters. Whether it SHOULD matter isn't the point and whether they made the decision correctly isn't the point either.

As to the drum beat about compromise I keep hearing and specifically about things such as the debt ceiling being raised for eons without issue. The old saying about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over comes to mind. The tea party group believes we need to stop spending money we don't have. They believe 100% that spending has to be curtailed in a major way. THEY DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE ON IT. [B]IT'S THE IMPORTANT THING TO THEM[/B] They took a stand. The debt celing represented the same old same old on spending. Now whether they are right about how to fix this is up to debate. That's what everyone, including our illustrious donkey of a President, should be figuring out together. How to fix this mess instead of winning political battles for our party and contributors.

But everyone needs to realize asking that the tea party members to compromise on the ONE SINGLE THING THEY CARE ABOUT is somewhat ludicrous. To them, choosing between not spending and a debt default (the occurrence of which was debatable anyways) is like choosing between a sh*t sandwich on rye and a sh*t sandwich on wheat.

These people got elected with a singular message and deserve a voice. They have enough representation to matter. Both Reps and Dems need to face that fact and deal with it.

Or we could keep listening to the all the politicians who keep calling the tea party crazy even though its all the same politicians who got us in this mess in the first place. Who are the crazy ones?

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821189]So the S&P might be called to testify before Congress. The gloves are about to come off. This is getting ugly.

[url=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/60909.html]S&P investigated by Senate Banking Committee - Josh Boak - POLITICO.com[/url][/quote]

HAHAHA! So they S&P runs our political environment through the ringer and the those responsible for it are now gonna haul them in to answer for their crimes. That's rich! A bunch of thin-skinned thugs.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

If they do try and haul these guys before a Senate committee, it will be an unmitigated disaster. Our debt is so out of hand that, as others have said, this downgrade should have happened years ago. There will be ample evidence in support of it - just based on numbers alone. All it these idiots will do is give S&P a chance to highlight just how idiotic the govt. is and make it seem like S&P was giving the U.S. a break.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to [I]not[/I] pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about [I]future[/I] spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821313]HAHAHA! So they S&P runs our political environment through the ringer and the those responsible for it are now gonna haul them in to answer for their crimes. That's rich! A bunch of thin-skinned thugs.[/quote]


Well its a little more rich then busting down their doors and raiding them....

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/04/police-raid-milan-moodys-standard-poors]Police raid Milan offices of Moody's and Standard & Poor's | World news | The Guardian[/url]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821350]FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.
[B]
Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to [I]not[/I] pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about [I]future[/I] spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.[/B][/quote]

I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821375]I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.[/quote]

Best post in the thread.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821350]FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, [B]had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right,[/B] the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to [I]not[/I] pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about [I]future[/I] spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.[/quote]

Hello, go back to post number 46 and listen to the dems defending the lenders telling the American people they were in good financial shape as other warned of the problems.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821375]I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.[/quote]

Same page. Totally agree.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821375]I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.[/quote]

The only problem with SS is that they expanded it for more then retirements and then they stole the money from SS to buy more votes. If the money intended for SS was left in its account we would have more then enough to cover its cost.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821350]FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

[B]Let's not confuse raising the debt ceiling and deficit reduction. Raising the debt ceiling isn't about dispensing a blank check to the president and giving him more spending authority[/B]. The federal debt limit is about how much revenue we can raise, not about how well we budget. We raise the debt to cover pass expenditures that have already passed through Congress like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that we're still paying for, TARP, Medicare Part D, and the Bush tax cuts. So the notion that the Tea Party was sent to Washington to gum up Congress in order to [I]not[/I] pay our bills? I'm not buying it. Yes, they were sent to Washington with a stern message about [I]future[/I] spending, but they were also sent to Washington to govern and keep the country functioning. I will give them credit, they've been extremely successful and effective in changing the terms of the debate and getting Washington to focus on deficit reduction and getting our house in order. Bravo to them in that regard.[/quote]

Really Obama just Saturday started talking about new spending. You know the new spending for roads and bridges that some how the 800 billion for those programs never made it there.


Obama Calls for More Federal Money for Roads, Bridges and Airports to Create Jobs.
[URL="http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-calls-more-money-roads-bridges-and"]Obama Calls for More Federal Money for Roads, Bridges and Airports to Create Jobs | CNSnews.com[/URL]

Now go back to 2009 when he was saying the stimulas money would go to rebuilding the roads. What the hell happened to all that money?

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28695368/ns/business-personal_finance/t/obamas-stimulus-plan-promises-new-jobs/"]Obama's stimulus plan promises jobs - Business - Personal finance - Careers - msnbc.com[/URL]

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

We got a bunch of new roads in my town.
Many of us wondered why they tore up a decent road and rebuilt it.
Instead of dicking around with building roads that only create temporary jobs how about we do something to get manufacturing back into this country?

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

First, go to the White House website. [url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/recovery/]The Recovery Act | The White House[/url] There should be an accounting of all the projects funded by The Recovery Act. I'm sure you peruse the White House's site all the time.

You know, we're going to have to make some investments --spend-- whatever word you want to use. I don't think we should view any and all spending as unnecessary and burdensome. We just have to balance national priorities and be fiscally responsible at the same time. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=firstdown;821387]The only problem with SS is that they expanded it for more then retirements and then they stole the money from SS to buy more votes. If the money intended for SS was left in its account we would have more then enough to cover its cost.[/quote]

I think there are way more problems than that. That's just the easy to debate issue.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821425]First, go to the White House website. [URL="http://www.whitehouse.gov/recovery/"]The Recovery Act | The White House[/URL] There should be an accounting of all the projects funded by The Recovery Act. I'm sure you peruse the White House's site all the time.

You know, we're going to have to make some investments --spend-- whatever word you want to use. I don't think we should view any and all spending as unnecessary and burdensome. We just have to balance national priorities and be fiscally responsible at the same time. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.[/quote]

You mean to use the site that claim to invest in districts that did not even exist.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;821416]We got a bunch of new roads in my town.
Many of us wondered why they tore up a decent road and rebuilt it.
Instead of dicking around with building roads that only create temporary jobs how about we do something to get manufacturing back into this country?[/quote]

Not enough people want manufacturing jobs in this country. Or more precisely can't afford to have them without there being a minimum wage that makes hiring them indefensible for publicly traded companies.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=firstdown;821440]You mean to use the site that claim to invest in districts that did not even exist.[/quote]

Yep, that's the one I'm talking about.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=12thMan;821350]FRPLG, I'm not dismissive of the events or the downgrade for that matter. It's a huge deal. We've lost billions in market cap in less than two weeks. But I wholeheartedly stand by my criticism, rating agencies have no business dictating policy. Especially S&P. They are three years too late and a dollar short downgrading anything. Had they downgraded the failed banks and unscrupulous mortgage lenders that led to the financial meltdown, had they issued the proper warnings when conditions were right, the politics of this current debate would have been far less difficult and much more achievable, in my opinion. We'd probably be looking at a completely different chain of events with a different menu of options to address them. But that's all water under the bridge now.

If lawmakers want to take their cue from economic forecasts to shape policy, fine. It shouldn't be the other away around. In some twisted way, I feel like our democracy has been undermined.

[/quote]

And ealier you said this:

[quote]FRPLG, I didn't say the credit rating wasn't important. A credit rating agency, in my opinion, should issue downgrades or upgrades based on economic data; The models and metrics they've been using since the company was founded. Not politics. If you think I believe that the credit rating is somehow trivial, then I don't know what else to tell you.[/quote]

Its impossible for rating agencies to not dictate policy. When they downgrade a company that’s effectively what theyre doing. No matter the reason a company gets downgraded the rating agency is basically saying something needs to change and major change usually needs starts at top with management and policy. And rating agencies aren’t just using economic models to forecast growth, this isn’t pure science, it’s a mixture of art of science. It’s a evaluation of an entire company including qualitative factors. So for S&P to come out and put their primary concern on the management of US and question the policy of our leaders may be a stretch of what their main focus should be but it shouldn’t be something they neglect. When our 2 parties refuse to work together and play chicken with raising the debt ceiling it should be a concern of credit agencies and likewise investors who put trust in them.

I agree that you got to put less reliance in something that totally missed downgrading the failed banks and mortgage lenders that hurt us so badly 3 years ago, but what are you supposed to do ignore them? They made mistakes and now they are apparently acting more hawkish. If they didn’t downgrade US creditworthiness, like they failed to do so for the banks, should we be more concerned?

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821375]I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.[/quote]

Let's not pretend the tea party is a voice reason. Their solution consists of cut spending and cut taxes after all. These numbnuts have no problem brining the bacon back home either.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=saden1;821451]Let's not pretend the tea party is a voice reason. Their solution consists of cut spending and cut taxes after all. These numbnuts have no problem brining the bacon back home either.[/quote]

Their solution is far and away better than anyone elses in my opinion. Anything that doesn't involve actually stopping spending that we can't afford is useless. Third-rail spending or not.

The question of taxes is such a sh*t issue. I'm pretty tired of people wanting the gov't do do everything but not have taxes.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821375]I guess to them, I am not a tea partier by any stretch but I do agree with some fundamental philosophy, the debt ceiling was representative of what they feel the issue has been--the willingness to continue spending money into the future that we don't have now and likely won't have then. Ultimately it was a tool for them to start twisting the Washington establishment away from the destructive policies of the past and present. The culture of our governing few is busted and it is going to take cracking that culture in half to start making the right decisions for this country. It isn't something that can be effectively changed over a long and slow process. It is going to need a shock to make it happen most likely. Until the system is changed so that the hard decisions are actually made instead of them PRETENDING to make hard decisions (but really just masking the same old same old) I applaud anyone who goes to Washington and holds it hostage.

[B]Example number 1. Social Security. We can't afford it. We can't afford it now and we can't afford in the future. At least not without it changing so much that it isn't even the same thing any more. Yet no one in Washington does a damn thing about really CHANGING it or simply getting rid of it. Why? Because instead of making a hard but correct decision they all engage in group think to stay elected. I don't know about anyone else but when it comes down to it I pay for food, water, electricity and a host of other necessities before I start dropping a bunch of money into my retirement. But our gov't has been saying for decades "Screw that! We can pay for everything all at once even without the cash to do it! Future generations be damned!". Well guess what, the "future generation" is here and a lot of us are f*cking pissed about it.[/B][/quote]


Bush tried, got trashed by people in his own party and most of the old farts he couldn't sell his idea to are now part of the tea party talking about "I paid into it." And these same Tea Party Republicans got into office by telling their constituents Obama is going to cut your social security, Obama is going to gut Medicare, Obama is going to kill you.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=FRPLG;821453]Their solution is far and away better than anyone elses in my opinion. Anything that doesn't involve actually stopping spending that we can't afford is useless. Third-rail spending or not.

The question of taxes is such a sh*t issue. I'm pretty tired of people wanting the gov't do do everything but not have taxes.[/quote]

How did the vote on the [URL="http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/156329-drama-erupts-on-house-floor-in-vote-over-conservatives-budget"]Republican Study Committee budget turnout[/URL]?

They're peacocking is all. As we have seen from the last decade Tax Cuts can be quite costly especially since they are currently the lowest they have ever been.

Re: US Credit Rating Downgraded To AA+
 

[quote=saden1;821454]Bush tried, got trashed by people in his own party and most of the old farts he couldn't sell his idea to are now part of the tea party talking about "I paid into it." And these same Tea Party Republicans got into office by telling their constituents Obama is going to cut your social security, Obama is going to gut Medicare, Obama is going to kill you.[/quote]

How come the left did not rais hell like this when Clinton cut SS?