I wonder if being associated with Shula and Gibbs hurts Beathard.

I mean when people say "Can you believe Gibbs won a Super Bowl with Williams at QB and Timmy Smith at RB?!" they're basically saying he won despite the talent. Which is not a good indictment of Beathard as GM.

I'm not saying I agree with this assessment, just wondering if some may think that

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Not saying he was'nt good, you're saying he's better ...and I say not really.Don Shula brought more of those players in then Beathard in Miami but at no time am I trying to shoot down his achivements.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

His grandson, C.J. Beathard, is committed to the University of Mississippi as a quarterback in the class of 2012.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SmootSmack;862999]I wonder if being associated with Shula and Gibbs hurts Beathard.

I mean when people say "Can you believe Gibbs won a Super Bowl with Williams at QB and Timmy Smith at RB?!" they're basically saying he won despite the talent. Which is not a good indictment of Beathard as GM.

I'm not saying I agree with this assessment, just wondering if some may think that[/quote]

Point ,Tim Smith did what after the super bowl???

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Giantone;863001]Not saying he was'nt good, you're saying he's better ...and I say not really.Don Shula brought more of those players in then Beathard in Miami but at no time am I trying shoot down his achivements.[/quote]

First off, I didn't say he was better than Young, but I did say he was better Wolf. Isn't the the job of the director of player personnel to get the talent for the team? He did that for the Dolphins, why do you think the Redskins hired him? Because of what he did in Miami. George Young was a great scout, Coach, GM. Beathard also turned around the perennial loser Chargers and took them to the SB after his 3rd year there. I say Beathard was just as responsible for the 2 SB by the Dolphins as Shula.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Chris Doleman deserves to go. He terrorized quarterbacks from the defensive end position for the Vikings like no other. Donnie Shell should have been in the HOF a long time ago, and he deserves enshrinement.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[url=http://bgobsession.com/showthread.php?t=1226]Where Are They Now? Bobby Beathard - BGObsession.com[/url]

Bobby "badass" Beathard catching a wave at 74.

[url=http://www.signonsandiego.com/photos/2011/aug/17/430086/]Photo | SignOnSanDiego.com[/url]

I wouldn't sell Ron Wolf short. He's had quite the career

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SmootSmack;863070]I wouldn't sell Ron Wolf short. He's had quite the career[/quote]

I agree, but I still say Beathard was better. He built those 2 SB Miami teams of the 70's including the undefeated season, Redskins 3 SB's (2 wins one loss) and Chargers 1 SB. Wolf had success with Raiders (2 SB), TB and GB (1 SB). My point is why isn't Beathard considered along with Young and Wolf? Both great GM's just like Beathard, I think Bobby has the better record from all the 3.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;863005][B]First off, I didn't say he was better than Young,[/B] but I did say he was better Wolf. Isn't the the job of the director of player personnel to get the talent for the team? He did that for the Dolphins, why do you think the Redskins hired him? Because of what he did in Miami. George Young was a great scout, Coach, GM. Beathard also turned around the perennial loser Chargers and took them to the SB after his 3rd year there. I say Beathard was just as responsible for the 2 SB by the Dolphins as Shula.[/quote]

I actually don't have an opinion on Beathard, Young and Wolf but I would like to point out that if ANY of them go in, it will only be 1 this year.

You have to remember that this is the HALL OF FAME. Just like the earlier discussion in this thread about Sterling Sharpe. The question is not if someone was good at their position, the question is were they better than the other guys nominated? Your opening point indicates Young would be the front office guy who should go in.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;863005]First off, I didn't say he was better than Young.[/quote]
Post #36, My Point is they hired Shula before they hired Bethard...they wanted him to build this team........and he did.

Really wish Butz would make it in


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Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

From the Redskins I would like to see (in no particular order) Larry Brown, Pat Fischer, Dave Butz, Joe Jacoby and Charles Mann.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;863122]From the Redskins I would like to see (in no particular order) Larry Brown, Pat Fischer, Dave Butz, Joe Jacoby and Charles Mann.[/quote]

Yeah Id like to see that too of course,plus Manley also.Larry Brown doesnt deserve it though,hes got absolutely no shot of making it.Fischer probably deserves it more than Butz

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Here is to hoping Chris Carter doesn't make the HoF yet again.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=htownskinfan;863129]Yeah Id like to see that too of course,plus Manley also.Larry Brown doesnt deserve it though,hes got absolutely no shot of making it.Fischer probably deserves it more than Butz[/quote]
I thought about Manley but left him off the list figuring his off the field issues would get him. For someone like LT, he was able to get past them. For someone on the bubble, I see it as a deal breaker with voters.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Wouldn't that be something if Jack Kent Cooke got in??? That would probably really chap Snyder's ass. But I just don't see that happening. One guy that I really think deserves it is Charles Haley. The guy was truly a difference maker.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;863066][URL="http://bgobsession.com/showthread.php?t=1226"]Where Are They Now? Bobby Beathard - BGObsession.com[/URL]

Bobby "badass" Beathard catching a wave at 74.

[URL="http://www.signonsandiego.com/photos/2011/aug/17/430086/"]Photo | SignOnSanDiego.com[/URL][/quote]

BB was a GREAT front office and personel man. Like he said...'he was in it at the right time.' You could keep guys and groom them. It's way harder now then it was back then. If there's one team that really does it like we use to it's is Pittsburgh. If they lose a guy it seems they have one ready to step right in. They rarely bring in guys from the outside. But like every GM, BB had some serious stinkers in there. But think about some of the guys he got...Bostic, D. Green, Mann, Jacoby, Joe Washington, Monk, Grimm, Charley Brown, Dexter, May, D. Grant, Gary Clark...I'm sure I'm missing some. But damn those are just some damn good and great players.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=skinsfan69;863141]Wouldn't that be something if Jack Kent Cooke got in??? [B]That would probably really chap Snyder's ass.[/B] But I just don't see that happening. One guy that I really think deserves it is Charles Haley. The guy was truly a difference maker.[/quote]

Why would it? I'm sure it would bring more publicity to the team, just like when Monk and Green got it.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Bobby Bethard was going to come back in 2004, but something had got in the way. It would have been nice to see a Bethard-Gibbs reunion. Too bad it didn't happen.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;863197]Bobby Bethard was going to come back in 2004, but something had got in the way. It would have been nice to see a Bethard-Gibbs reunion. Too bad it didn't happen.[/quote]

Bobby wanted his own scouting staff, Snyder wanted to use the existing staff at the time.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Ruhskins;863158]Why would it? I'm sure it would bring more publicity to the team, just like when Monk and Green got it.[/quote]

that was totally different. the old owner was loved by the fans and won. the current owner is not loved by the fans and has lost.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=skinsfan69;863212]that was totally different. the old owner was loved by the fans and won. the current owner is not loved by the fans and has lost.[/quote]
To illustrate your point, was anyone at the 49ers game where Chris Hanburger got his ring at half time and started off by thanking Snyder for the courtesy he had shown Chris?

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;863197]Bobby Bethard was going to come back in 2004, but something had got in the way. It would have been nice to see a Bethard-Gibbs reunion. Too bad it didn't happen.[/quote]

Beathard and Snyder couldn't agree on scouting staff, Bobby wanted his own while Snyder wanted the existing staff at the time.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[url=http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/1/7/class-of-2012-finalists/]Enshrinement » Class of 2012 Finalists[/url]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:

Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers

Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers

Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins

Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers

Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers

Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers

Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers

Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys

Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks

Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets

Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys

Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins

Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs

Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs

Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins

Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Rickey Sanders should be in for this record alone: Most touches of the football of any player without a fumble during his career.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;863197]Bobby Bethard was going to come back in 2004, but something had got in the way. It would have been nice to see a Bethard-Gibbs reunion. Too bad it didn't happen.[/quote]

Please explain...

Bobby Beathard was not coming back to be the GM for the Redskins - - or to have any other executive position - - in 2004 when Gibbs 2.0 began. In fact, the reason Beatherd "left" the Redskins is that he and Gibbs had a falling out and got into a power struggle starting in the late 80s. Jack Kent Cooke had to make a decision on which guy would leave town and he kept Gibbs not Beathard.

I am sure that the pissing contests between those two guys has died down over the years but they are not BFFs...

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

It was 2002, not 2004

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;873793][URL="http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/1/7/class-of-2012-finalists/"]Enshrinement » Class of 2012 Finalists[/URL]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee’s 17 finalists (15 modern-era and two senior nominees*) with their positions, teams, and years active follow:

Jerome Bettis – Running Back – 1993-95 Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1996-2005 Pittsburgh Steelers

Tim Brown – Wide Receiver/Kick Returner – 1988-2003 Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders, 2004 Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Jack Butler* – Cornerback – 1951-59 Pittsburgh Steelers

Cris Carter – Wide Receiver – 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins

Dermontti Dawson – Center – 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers

Edward DeBartolo, Jr. – Owner – 1977-2000 San Francisco 49ers

Chris Doleman – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1985-1993, 1999 Minnesota Vikings, 1994-95 Atlanta Falcons, 1996-98 San Francisco 49ers

Kevin Greene – Linebacker/Defensive End – 1985-1992 Los Angeles Rams, 1993-95 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996, 1998-99 Carolina Panthers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers

Charles Haley – Defensive End/Linebacker – 1986-1991, 1999 San Francisco 49ers, 1992-96 Dallas Cowboys

Cortez Kennedy – Defensive Tackle – 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks

Curtis Martin – Running Back – 1995-97 New England Patriots, 1998-2005 New York Jets

Bill Parcells – Coach – 1983-1990 New York Giants, 1993-96 New England Patriots, 1997-99 New York Jets, 2003-06 Dallas Cowboys

Andre Reed – Wide Receiver – 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins

Willie Roaf – Tackle – 1993-2001 New Orleans Saints, 2002-05 Kansas City Chiefs

Will Shields – Guard – 1993-2006 Kansas City Chiefs

Dick Stanfel* – Guard – 1952-55 Detroit Lions, 1956-58 Washington Redskins

Aeneas Williams – Cornerback/Safety – 1991-2000 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 2001-04 St. Louis Rams[/quote]

C. Kennedy, W. Roaf & Parcells are my bets, several others I'm on the fence on. Really weak class of RBs, the O line candidates are strong. Haley will be hard to deny, except for the fact the dude was crazy! C. Carter & T. Brown will both get in, but not both at this time.

Mann is our best candidate overall, but he's got some tough competition. Jacoby I think is going to suffer from comparison to modern day, quick foot OTs & he could never block LT or Banks. B. Mitchell is only in the conversation as a returner, can't really say he deserves to be in.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=freddyg12;874201]C. Kennedy, W. Roaf & Parcells are my bets, several others I'm on the fence on. Really [B][U]weak class of RBs[/U][/B], the O line candidates are strong. Haley will be hard to deny, except for the fact the dude was crazy! C. Carter & T. Brown will both get in, but not both at this time.

Mann is our best candidate overall, but he's got some tough competition. Jacoby I think is going to suffer from comparison to modern day, quick foot OTs & he could never block LT or Banks. B. Mitchell is only in the conversation as a returner, can't really say he deserves to be in.[/quote]

I loved watching Curtis Martin run, he could bring it and was on pace to break Emmitt(run out of bounds or fold up like a tent) Smiths record when he got hurt. Martin was a good tough rb.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

Curtis Martin IMO deserves it. Watching him play growing up was awesome and I was pulling for him to break Moose Johnson and the Cowboy's OL's rushing record.....oh I mean Emmit Smith's record....

Also Roaf should have already been inducted and its nice to see Tim Brown as well.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=freddyg12;874201]C. Kennedy, W. Roaf & Parcells are my bets, several others I'm on the fence on. [B]Really weak class of RBs[/B], the O line candidates are strong. Haley will be hard to deny, except for the fact the dude was crazy! C. Carter & T. Brown will both get in, but not both at this time.

Mann is our best candidate overall, but he's got some tough competition. Jacoby I think is going to suffer from comparison to modern day, quick foot OTs & he could never block LT or Banks. B. Mitchell is only in the conversation as a returner, can't really say he deserves to be in.[/quote]

How can you say Martin and Bettis are a "weak class"?:spank:

I am also not a Parcells fan. Look when he had real success - he had the HC in NE on his staff. When Bill B wasn't there, Parcells was average at best.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874220]How can you say Martin and Bettis are a "weak class"?:spank:

I am also not a Parcells fan. Look when he had real success - he had the HC in NE on his staff. When Bill B wasn't there, Parcells was average at best.[/quote]

Those two might be the most deserving of the class. Bettis IMO is a good candidate. Martin was good, not great, and more than anything deserves credit for longevity. Not sure that's enough for the hall though.

Overall though, there are some RBs in that class that are nowhere near HOF level, e.g. Stephen Davis & Tikki Barber. Both were good players, but also fumble prone & were not consistenly great through their careers.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874220]How can you say Martin and Bettis are a "weak class"?:spank:

I am also not a Parcells fan. [B]Look when he had real success - he had the HC in NE on his staff. When Bill B wasn't there, Parcells was average at best[/B].[/quote]

The Tuna won 2 super bowls in NY, went to another in NE, got the jets competitive, built a good team in Dallas that was competitive, & built a decent roster in Miami, though that's hard to see now.

I know Parcells had Belicheck for part of his career, but if you use that logic you can always downgrade anyone's success & Parcells had success w/out Belicheck.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

I dint realize TO is 2nd all time in reception yardage behind Rice. Megatron at #169 and climbing!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874220]How can you say Martin and Bettis are a "weak class"?:spank:

I am also not a Parcells fan. Look when he had real success - he had the HC in NE on his staff. When Bill B wasn't there, Parcells was average at best.[/quote]

Parcell belongs there, he beat the shit out of Bill Walsh more than once in the playoffs and almost killed Joe Montana.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=freddyg12;874234]The Tuna won 2 super bowls in NY, went to another in NE, got the jets competitive, built a good team in Dallas that was competitive, & built a decent roster in Miami, though that's hard to see now.

I know Parcells had Belicheck for part of his career, but if you use that logic you can always downgrade anyone's success & Parcells had success w/out Belicheck.[/quote]


Yes, his 2 Super Bowls in NY and 3rd in NE, who was by his side as DC? Belicheck. When Belicheck wasn't there - what did Parcells do? Bill B was HC in Cleveland from 91-95. How many Super Bowls did Parcells go to then?

He made the playoffs in Dallas but got no where. Miami wasn't any better. Parcells only real success happened not because of Parcells.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Leader In Sports;874282]Yes, his 2 Super Bowls in NY and 3rd in NE, who was by his side as DC? Belicheck. When Belicheck wasn't there - what did Parcells do? Bill B was HC in Cleveland from 91-95. How many Super Bowls did Parcells go to then?

He made the playoffs in Dallas but got no where. Miami wasn't any better. Parcells only real success happened not because of Parcells.[/quote]Then why did'nt Belichick do well in Cleveland ?Your argument does'nt stand up ....at all.

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;874258]Parcell belongs there, he beat the shit out of Bill Walsh more than once in the playoffs and almost killed Joe Montana.[/quote]

They knocked Montana out twice Burt got him once in 87 and Marshall in 90 they were both brutal hits. That Marshall hit would have sent me to ER.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAY_fUOF2HA]Burt vs Montana - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAABWqhNvtg&feature=related]Leonard Marshall knocking Joe Montana out! 1990 NFC Championship game. Giants vs. 49ers - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2012
 

[quote=Giantone;874335]Then why did'nt Belichick do well in Cleveland ?Your argument does'nt stand up ....at all.[/quote]

If memory serves, Belichick was starting to get that team turned around and then Modell announced the move to Baltimore and it fell apart.

Even if my memory is off on that, Bill B had success without Parcells, but Parcells hasn't done squat without Bill B.

edit: Heck, how many playoff games has Parcells won without Bill B on his staff? I bet you they could be counted on 1 hand.