Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=RedskinRat;846618]I HEART [URL="http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/10/total-failure.html"]this[/URL]:

I'm sure this won't sit well with some but I'd like to hear the counter position to Froggy's post.[/quote]


How do you counter a uneducated person's rant about people being uneducated? If this fool thinks "Occupy" is about college kids believing false things about economics, then he is truly is one of the very type he's talking about. I love the fact he brings up "unions" in the article. Just like a talking head parrot from the Republidiots. My guess is he still thinks Trickle Down theory works.


Idiots like "Froggy" let corporate media blow smoke up their ass and they sit in their recliners talking smack about the people making a stand. Here is the cold hard reality of it. Corporate America sponsors Corporate Media. They will report to you want they want to report. You think they are going to report the truth? No, they are detracting idiots just like Froggy with the smoke and mirrors that continue to haunt this country. They continue to do this with selective editing. Find one case, and make it out to the the norm. Hell, just outright lie, and we all know media like FOX lies its ass off repeatedly.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbZB9FOFiXE&feature=player_embedded]Occupy Wall Street bashes Fox News - YouTube[/ame]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=RedskinRat;846618]I HEART [URL="http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/10/total-failure.html"]this[/URL]:

[I]If there is any coherent message that can be gleaned from the Occupy Wall Street “movement”, it is that our system of public and higher education can now be declared a total and complete failure. The fact that there exists no accountability at any level of our Education-Industrial Complex is perfectly clear for all to see. It seems fair to say that responsibility for this can be laid squarely at the feet of the teacher’s unions and their members who have perpetuated an economic structure in education and a curricular agenda that has been allowed to defy gravity for 40 years.[/I][/quote]This ****tard needs to wake up and realize that knowing ****ing calculus, chemistry, or physics DOES NOT make you ANY MORE knowledgeable about economics(I know, since I have taken intro classes in all three areas). In fact, I would guess that plenty of guys who passed through those classes with flying colors are also "lefties".

Psychology is not a soft subject, and one obscure branch of it(Industrial-Organization) plays a SIGNIFICANT role in the coporate sector.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;849704]This ****tard needs to wake up and realize that knowing ****ing calculus, chemistry, or physics DOES NOT make you ANY MORE knowledgeable about economics(I know, since I have taken intro classes in all three areas). In fact, I would guess that plenty of guys who passed through those classes with flying colors are also "lefties".

Psychology is not a soft subject, and one obscure branch of it(Industrial-Organization) plays a SIGNIFICANT role in the coporate sector.[/quote]

yep, the bright-lights happy workers study was the first well known case, but there's a lot of interaction and environmental effects that have been studied in relationship to work/production/effectiveness.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

Here is a chance to stick it to a 1 percenter:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/jon-bon-jovis-pay-what-you-can-charity-restaurant-opens-in-nj-to-help-the-hungry/2011/10/19/gIQAfk6uxL_story.html]Jon Bon Jovi’s ‘pay-what-you-can’ charity restaurant opens in NJ to help the hungry - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

I posted this in one of the other political threads, but I think it belongs here. For those comparing the Tea Party movement to the Occupy movement, I would suggest there is a significant difference between the two. To be clear, I sympathize with elements of both movements - the Tea Party's theme of limited government and restoration of federalism, and the Occupy Movement's theme of corporate America's innate dysfunction and disconnect. I also disgree with both on many other issues. At the same time, from a practical analysis, I think the Tea Party has been (and will continue to be) a far more effective grass roots movement.

Unlike the the Tea Party, the Occupy movement is not actually organizing change it's just pouting about the problem. The Tea Party group - regardless of what you think of their message - organized, worked within the system, and elected numerous people who they believed would effect change. They were effective in that many politicians reflecting the "status quo" were defeated despite being backed by "the machine" (as it were). The Occupy folks have a clear and simple way to effect corporate change - buy in. Buy stocks and organize voting blocks within the corporations. It's hard, it's a lot of work, it would involve many setbacks, but there is a way for them to effectively change the structure. There is also, of course, the Tea Party route - identify an agenda, find individuals who support that agenda to run against machine politicians, and work like hell to elect those individuals -- or you can just sit in your own stench and whine. I am sure that will be effective too.

Just like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement oversimplifies both the problem & the solution and is just blatantly wrong on many things. They are every bit as stupid as those in the Tea Party whom the left likes to pillory. Of course, the dumb Tea Partiers probably don't have degrees from "I Am Smarter Than You & My Sh** Don't Stink" University so they are easier to pick on.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;849865]I posted this in one of the other political threads, but I think it belongs here. For those comparing the Tea Party movement to the Occupy movement, I would suggest there is a significant difference between the two. To be clear, I sympathize with elements of both movements - the Tea Party's theme of limited government and restoration of federalism, and the Occupy Movement's theme of corporate America's innate dysfunction and disconnect. I also disgree with both on many other issues. At the same time, from a practical analysis, I think the Tea Party has been (and will continue to be) a far more effective grass roots movement.

Unlike the the Tea Party, [B]the Occupy movement is not actually organizing change it's just pouting about the problem.[/B] The Tea Party group - regardless of what you think of their message - organized, worked within the system, and elected numerous people who they believed would effect change. They were effective in that many politicians reflecting the "status quo" were defeated despite being backed by "the machine" (as it were). The Occupy folks have a clear and simple way to effect corporate change - buy in. Buy stocks and organize voting blocks within the corporations. It's hard, it's a lot of work, it would involve many setbacks, but there is a way for them to effectively change the structure. There is also, of course, the Tea Party route - identify an agenda, find individuals who support that agenda to run against machine politicians, and work like hell to elect those individuals -- or you can just sit in your own stench and whine. I am sure that will be effective too.

Just like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement oversimplifies both the problem & the solution and is just blatantly wrong on many things. They are every bit as stupid as those in the Tea Party whom the left likes to pillory. Of course, the dumb Tea Partiers probably don't have degrees from "I Am Smarter Than You & My Sh** Don't Stink" University so they are easier to pick on.[/quote]

Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Lotus;849870]Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.[/quote]

Or large corporations can show up and dump buckets of money and they would all leave to go buy Birkenstocks and bongs.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Lotus;849870]Excellent post.

Since the OWS movement has vague goals and even vaguer paths for achieving them, I have wondered how it can be brought to an end. When will people stop sitting in? For example, an anti-war movement can be ended by ending a war. But what can be given to the OWS folks to make them feel like, "We've achieved our goals"?

The only proximate endpoint that I can see for the Occupy movement is the onset of cold weather.[/quote]


You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest. It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.


There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;849873]Or large corporations can show up and dump buckets of money and they would all leave to go buy Birkenstocks and bongs.[/quote]

Profile much?

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest. It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.


[B]There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars[/B], while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.

The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.[/quote]

I guess the media is also on youtube making these people look like fools without a clear msg. The part I highlight is the only thing you posted I agree with. You wnat the people convicted but the problem is that most of the people who ran this into the ground did not break laws they just made poor decisions or greedy decisions.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Lotus;849881]Profile much?[/quote]

He thinks he's pretty ****ing cute with his lame comments (and mocking a death/slaughtering of animals), but the reality of it is he's coming off like a huge douche bag.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=firstdown;849885]I guess the media is also on youtube making these people look like fools without a clear msg. The part I highlight is the only thing you posted I agree with. You wnat the people convicted but the problem is that most of the people who ran this into the ground did not break laws they just made poor decisions or greedy decisions.[/quote]


Again FD, SELECTIVE EDITING. I can create any story you want by finding the exact responses and then editing them to make it look like all the people are ****ing stupid. HERP DERP! LOOK GUYS I INTERVIEWED 150 PEOPLE BUT WILL ONLY SHOW YOU 5 BECAUSE THOSE WERE THE MOST STUPID PEOPLE I COULD FIND. Give me a ****ing break. This kind of shit pisses me off and it does exactly what it is supposed to. Throw guys just like YOU off on the real problem. (greedy banks and corruption) Keep you focus on the real problem at hand, not what you perceive is a bunch of jerk wads wanting free handouts. Our media reminds me much like this part in this movie. Blind them with the moon (bullshit) so they continue towing the line they want you to believe.

[YT]vgpQWPclSIg[/YT]


You mean fraud isn't breaking the law? Let me quote you what friend of mine said who is in the financial industry.


[quote]The banks greed is what caused the collapse.

I was in the industry, so I have some institutional history.

You can blame the consumer all you want, but that simply isn't correct. There were primarily to types of loans that were bad loans.

1. Sub-prime: these were the high interest variable loans for people with bad credit history. They were often sold as a "fix your credit" loan. People were told that they could make payments consistently for two years at high rates and then refi it into a fixed conventional loan. The banks gambled every single time they sold these, but didn't care. The points, fees and rates were extremely high and they were making a ton of money.

2. Neg-Am loans: these loans had a deferred interest feature. I'm other words...let's say the going rate was 6%. They would lower your payment by only charging you 2%. The other 4% would get added to your balance, increasing your debt each month. These are the ones that people say that the consumer was to blame and they do deserve some blame, but listen to how they were sold...greedy as ****...

People were told 2 things to convince them it was a good loan. First...they told people that they could take that money (payment savings) and invest it making more than the amount of deferred interest. Also...they were told that they could refi it every 2 years (that was the max you could defer) essentially keeping their payment low. (more fees, more loans, higher profits, higher stock prices, ETC.)

This inflated property values because cost of the house became less important to consumers. Payment were still low. When property values

The problem was when property values peaked and stopped rising, the deferred interest piled up to a point where people owed more than it was worth and couldn't refinance...the rate jumped back up and people could no longer afford the payments.

It's important to remember that these bankers knew these were bad loans and that at some point it would all collapse. They didn't care. They saw it as a way to makes gobs of money...and they did.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but I hate the "blame the consumer" argument[/quote]

Sounds like fraud to me. Nothing different from this and a Ponzi scheme.


Nope. Nothing wrong with this. /facepalm
[IMG]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/311031_2052589630476_1116581580_31749088_878844972_n.jpg[/IMG]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]They want to make it look like they are some [B]rambling idiots just protesting just to protest[/B].[/quote]For the most part they are.

[quote]
1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.[/quote]Does that include folks in the Clinton Admin. and Bush Admins?

[url=http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/hotproperty/archives/2008/02/clintons_drive.html]Bill Clinton's drive to increase homeownership went way too far - BusinessWeek[/url]

How about Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Greg Meeks, Lacy Clay, Athur Davis

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSDnGMzIdo]Democrats were WARNED of Financial crisis and did NOTHING - YouTube[/ame]

[url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/chris-dodd.html]Sen. Chris Dodd took millions from now-failing finance firms he oversees - latimes.com[/url]

[quote]There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.[/quote]If folks broke the law they should be prosecuted and punished. If folks stayed within the laws/regulations then we need to look at the problem being gov't interference in the markets. Without gov't programs to incentivize home ownership, lending standards would not have been eased to create the bad mortgage assets that triggered the financial crisis.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;849891]For the most part they are.[/quote]

And so are most republicans. See what I did there?





[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;849891]Does that include folks in the Clinton Admin. and Bush Admins?[/quote]

Hey, it's politicians doing the bidding of big business. Guess who wants to eliminate ALL corporate sponsorship of campaigns? THIS GUY.


Funny you mention Clinton, but some of his policies really were the start of the downfall. (deregulation/NAFTA)




[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;849891]How about Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Greg Meeks, Lacy Clay, Athur Davis[/quote]

What part of ALL of them didn't you get? I mean every last mother ****er that played a part in it. I mean like French Revolution style. Round them all up, and chop their heads off in public square.


[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;849891][url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/09/chris-dodd.html]Sen. Chris Dodd took millions from now-failing finance firms he oversees - latimes.com[/url]
[/quote]

I don't get you. Why in the **** are you up here trying to blast Democrats? Haven't you got it through your skull yet that I don't support ANY party and I think both parties are worthless? It's getting a bit annoying with your petty Repbulican vs Democrat bickering. That's the problem. Most of you guys are so blinded by the whole Repubs vs Dem that you take that mantle and run with it. You'd think many of you see it as a Cowboys vs Redskins rivalry. DEMOCRATS SUCK!!......REPUBLICANS ARE MORONS!!

News Flash: They are all equally worthless. The Republicans just show it more.

Sorry about the rant, but stop acting as I'm some dude toting a blue donkey flag parroting Democrat wishes.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;849865]I posted this in one of the other political threads, but I think it belongs here. For those comparing the Tea Party movement to the Occupy movement, I would suggest there is a significant difference between the two. To be clear, I sympathize with elements of both movements - the Tea Party's theme of limited government and restoration of federalism, and the Occupy Movement's theme of corporate America's innate dysfunction and disconnect. I also disgree with both on many other issues. At the same time, from a practical analysis, I think the Tea Party has been (and will continue to be) a far more effective grass roots movement.

Unlike the the Tea Party, the Occupy movement is not actually organizing change it's just pouting about the problem. The Tea Party group - regardless of what you think of their message - organized, worked within the system, and elected numerous people who they believed would effect change. They were effective in that many politicians reflecting the "status quo" were defeated despite being backed by "the machine" (as it were). The Occupy folks have a clear and simple way to effect corporate change - buy in. Buy stocks and organize voting blocks within the corporations. It's hard, it's a lot of work, it would involve many setbacks, but there is a way for them to effectively change the structure. There is also, of course, the Tea Party route - identify an agenda, find individuals who support that agenda to run against machine politicians, and work like hell to elect those individuals -- or you can just sit in your own stench and whine. I am sure that will be effective too.

Just like the Tea Party, the Occupy movement oversimplifies both the problem & the solution and is just blatantly wrong on many things. They are every bit as stupid as those in the Tea Party whom the left likes to pillory. Of course, the dumb Tea Partiers probably don't have degrees from "I Am Smarter Than You & My Sh** Don't Stink" University so they are easier to pick on.[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Very well said and i completely agree. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Though the Tea Party did a lot to advance their cause part of it was because they got hijacked. It was originally many young libertarian minded people who fell in love with the ideas of Ron Paul over the internet and were fueled by a rebellion to a intrusive, socially conservative and fiscally irresponsible federal government under Bush fresh. Constant mocking by from the left kept many of the socially liberal people who originally shared interest with the Tea Partiers away. It grew to influential size as many social conservatives joined because of dissatisfaction from a neo-conservative big government movement in the Republican party. While the addition of social conservatives gave the Tea Party movement organization and influence it also fundamentally changed it. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think something similar could happen with OWS, although besides the Unions I don’t really know any faction of the Democratic party that has the capability to organize non-race specific groups. Unfortunately the media on the right has spent a lot of time mocking these people just like the left did with tea partiers. While the originally tea parties shared a lot of common ground with social liberals many in the media ended up spoiling that relationship, and unfortunately it looks it may be same in the reverse situation…..[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

i do believe the current financial structure is out of whack. im sure a bunch of rich guys are getting richer on govt passed policies that make us working class people more in debt.

i hate the fact that over the next 30 years i am going to repay what? 1 million dollars for a 200k home loan . . . but im too tired and busy working to stop and look around. let alone think anything will be done about it.

US economy = working class in debt. it just is what it is. atleast they give us football on sundays and cold beers during happy hour.

im going to be dirving by the occupy balitmore a few times tonight, if i see anything noteworthy ill post it. mayeb ill run up to one of their tents and get a pic of me pissing on it? yay? nay?

edit - got another denial in the email again today. before when i had dirty pee i was invited to interviews, now that i got clean pee i cant get one. the next employer who denies me im goign to go and pee on their front door handle at night. eff employers with their policy of no thank you!

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Lotus;849881]Profile much?[/quote]

No, I look at pictures.

[img]http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0113.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0004.jpg[/img]
http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0063.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0367.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.lookingattheleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/101511_0292.jpg[/img]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

Lol, NC_Skins. First things first, just what in the code did they violate? You can't charge someone with a crime without identifying the crime first.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

AW, so based on a few pictures and image the media wants to portray you will generalize on an entire movement? Nice. Ever heard of a significant statistical sample?

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]You know why it's not clear? THE MEDIA. They don't want to make it clear. They want to make it look like they are some rambling idiots just protesting just to protest.[/quote]

One, all I have heard from the media is sympathy for the OWS movement - how they are a populist movement striving to focus their outrage. All sorts of little guy v. big bad corporations. At the same time, I am sure that media from the right is doing as you say. I am equally sure that left leaning media is portraying them as modern day evangelists/heros - little Davids against big bad Goliaths. [url=http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sunday-ows-notes/]Sunday OWS Notes - NYTimes.com[/url]; [url=http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/20/news/economy/goldman_sachs_occupy_wall_street/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2;]Occupy Wall Street reacts to Goldman Sachs pay - Oct. 20, 2011[/url]; [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44924775/]Occupy Wall Street shows muscle, raises $300K - US news - Life - msnbc.com[/url]

The typical preachers are talking to the typical choirs. The facts are out there and being reported. Depending on which channel you listen to, the space between the facts is filled with red or blue spin.

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]It's simple.

1) Criminally charge those who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground.

2) Remove corporate/wall street ties with government.

3) Tax corporations appropriately.[/quote]

I get it. You hate corporations and rich people. The OWS movement must just have you salivating like crack to an addict. However, if what you say is truly "the message", than the OWS is just plain dumb and is exhibiting a fundamental failure to understand economics and criminal law 101.

(1) Cite me the specific criminal statutes violated by specific individuals. Not some generic bull sh**. Facts & laws - specifics. When, where and how? Who, specifically, committed what specific crimes? Before you start depriving individuals of their liberty, I would suggest they are entitled to a little due process of the law.

If those "who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground" did so out of epically bad judgment rather than through specific criminal actions - does the OWS still support criminal sanctions? I, for one, don't support a movement that would suggest we allow the retroactive imposition of criminal penalties for actions not deemed criminal at the time they were taken. Seems to me a bad, bad precedent.

(2, 3) So tax corporations and take property from their investors but don't let those self-same investors have a voice in government through the corporate entity. More simply, tax but allow no representation - seems to me that was the underlying theme of some other revolution in history.

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]There is no ****ing way that those assholes that ran this economy into the ground should be walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, while sticking the American people with the bill. **** that. Arrest the criminals and send them to jail. Liquidate ALL of their assets and give it back to the people/government.[/quote]

And it was allllll "the corporations" fault - not all those taking advantage of easy money, applying for loans with inflated home values and false income information or purchasing homes on speculation.

BTW - Is the same govt in which you have no faith that you would have collecting and performing the wealth distribution?

[quote=NC_Skins;849878]The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, they are in bed with the politicians. They are major contributors and basically set the policy at hand. The politicians aren't going to take a stand because it's biting the hand that feeds them, and many of them are making huge gains off of the very stuff they let slide.[/quote]

No. The reason they aren't being tried and convicted is, to my knowledge, they have not done anything criminal but, rather, made dumb/bad investments and used traditionally accepted, but risky, accounting procedures to inflate values in an effort to create the most wealth for their investors.

Ultimately, with corporations, there is inherent conflict/disconnect between the need for and purpose of a corporation's legal existence and the proper functioning of a free market. Corporations exist to pool resources and protect individuals from personal liability which allows for greater risk and larger investment. At the same time, in doing so, the corporate entity shields managers from suffering the same penalty the corporation suffers for bad investments - loss of value. It is this disconnect that allows these large corporations to make dumb, risky investments while having the managers profit regardless of whether or not the corporation wins or loses.

If the OWS [I]really[/I] wants to change things then, as the Tea Party has done, create a specific agenda that addresses the real inequities and market dysfunction of corporate law as it applies to large corporations. Find a way to preserve the real and needed protections of the corporate structure while at the same time creating a practical market accountability for managers who exercise poor judgment. I suggest to you that the devil is in the details and that screaming "Corporations are bad" is ineffective, counter-productive and, mostly, just plain stupid.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

The tone of this whole thread is just representative of the state of our nation. Polarization, generalization and overall negativity reign supreme over actual intelligent debate.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=Lotus;849881]Profile much?[/quote]

lol

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=NC_Skins;849890]You mean fraud isn't breaking the law? Let me quote you what friend of mine said who is in the financial industry.

...

Sounds like fraud to me. Nothing different from this and a Ponzi scheme.[/quote]

“Sounds like fraud” to you? That’s good enough for me!! Let’s just skip the whole charges, trial, judge & jury thing – lock’em up! Better yet, let's get a posse together and just go door to door shooting people. You make the list, I'll get the guns. No need to involve any government, lawyers or police. They'd just get in the way!

Sorry, but both examples cited by your "friend" (sub-prime loans, neg-am loans) were legal but risky loans for the banks to make and for consumers to take. Risky for the consumer and, as evidenced by the economic collapse, risky for the bank.

I am simply not going to dig it up, but there were plenty of individuals, both corporate and consumer, who went were criminally prosecuted for knowingly falsifying info (oh, wait, you cited one – see below). That’s fraud. On the other hand, selling pie-in-the-sky money to gullible people is not, never has been and never will be, illegal.

Nothing in either example required an economics degree to understand – people were told what they wanted to hear and they ate it up. For a while, everybody profited – not just the banks. Subsequently, everyone had to pay the piper – even the banks.

[quote=NC_Skins;849890]Nope. Nothing wrong with this. /facepalm
[/quote]

Actually, I agree - the disconnect between white collar crime & penalties and traditional “blue collar” crime penalties is something that needs to be addressed and corrected.

Following the OWS model for change, I’ll meet you in front of the Capital, you bring the bull-horn, I’ll bring the sign. I bet that will be much more effective than organizing an actual national grass-roots political movement, electing like minded people to enact practical and responsive legislation. Regardless of it's effectiveness, I'm sure our bull horn and sign will be easier. Can you remember to bring the Starbucks? Vente Latte please.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=hooskins;849907]AW, so based on a few pictures and image the media wants to portray you will generalize on an entire movement? Nice. Ever heard of a significant statistical sample?[/quote]

Its hardly a [I]few [/I]pictures

This whole movement is so absurd it just begs to be mocked.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

AW, I see where you are coming from but I wouldn't dismiss the entire movement based on that. Just like the Tea Party movement shouldn't be dismissed based on some of their racist and religious nutjob followers. Again, see my previous post about the nature of this debate.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=hooskins;849933]AW, I see where you are coming from but I wouldn't dismiss the entire movement based on that. Just like the Tea Party movement shouldn't be dismissed based on some of their racist and religious nutjob followers. Again, see my previous post about the nature of this debate.[/quote]

Fair enough.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;849905]Lol, NC_Skins. First things first, just what in the code did they violate? You can't charge someone with a crime without identifying the crime first.[/quote]

[quote=JoeRedskin;849910](1) Cite me the specific criminal statutes violated by specific individuals. Not some generic bull sh**. Facts & laws - specifics. When, where and how? Who, specifically, committed what specific crimes? Before you start depriving individuals of their liberty, I would suggest they are entitled to a little due process of the law. [/quote]

I've got nothing on the above. What you both said is 100% true. I guess I'm more pissed there aren't laws and regulations just for this very thing. I do in fact believe many of these guys that got away (with millions and millions) did perpetrate fraud. Were there any investigations? I mean Congress sure went after MLB and steroid testing, but let those jackasses in Wall Street get a pass?

[quote=JoeRedskin;849910]And it was allllll "the corporations" fault - not all those taking advantage of easy money, applying for loans with inflated home values and false income information or purchasing homes on speculation. [/quote]

Not so much corporations as it was the banking industry. Not all corporations abuses it's wealth and power to influence government to do their bidding. It's just the major ones. They were giving out loans to people they knew they couldn't afford them and even talking them into these loans. I stated you information from a friend of mine in the industry. However, his professional opinion was passed off as it weren't correct, yet nobody can refute anything he said. This is the key here.

[quote]It's important to remember that these bankers knew these were bad loans and that at some point it would all collapse. They didn't care. They saw it as a way to makes gobs of money...and they did.[/quote]

If I go into a bank and make $60,000, and apply for a loan of 5 million dollars, why on earth would they give me that loan knowing good and damn well I'm going to default? Same thing they did here. Not only did they give out the bad loans, they enticed people by offering them low payments. It is ALL of their fault.

Why are we having to bail these asshats out? To big to fail my ass. The thing about "free market" and capitalism is that with the fail of one business, another will rise from the ashes.




[quote=JoeRedskin;849910]I get it. You hate corporations and rich people. [/quote]

You keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true no matter how many times you repeat it. It's almost to the point that Slinging Sammy keeps wanting to refer to me as the Libs/Dem side of the fence. I talk about corporate corruption a lot because it's widespread and they are embedded within our government. I have a HUGE problem with that, much like I do with religion and our government.

I'll say this again. I have 0 problems with corporations as long as they aren't influencing our government/news media, abiding by regulations, and paying their fair share of taxes. Do I need to make this a sig?




[quote=JoeRedskin;849910]BTW - Is the same govt in which you have no faith that you would have collecting and performing the wealth distribution? [/quote]

Not in the current set of assholes residing in DC. No.


[quote=JoeRedskin;849910]If those "who ran the economy/banking industry into the ground" did so out of epically bad judgment rather than through specific criminal actions - does the OWS still support criminal sanctions? [/quote]

I don't believe it was done on "bad judgment". Those guys knew exactly what they were doing. No, I do not support punishment retroactive on crimes committed.



[quote=JoeRedskin;849910](2, 3) So tax corporations and take property from their investors but don't let those self-same investors have a voice in government through the corporate entity. More simply, tax but allow no representation - seems to me that was the underlying theme of some other revolution in history.[/quote]

Corporations are NOT people, no matter what idiot law might say they are. They are a business and should be treated as such. I think corporations should pay their fair share of tax, just like everybody else. This GE making 14 billion dollars, but paying 0 tax dollars is absurd.



[quote=JoeRedskin;849910]I suggest to you that the devil is in the details and that screaming "Corporations are bad" is ineffective, counter-productive and, mostly, just plain stupid.[/quote]

I think you are reading what you want to. I've stated my thoughts on this and you continue to ignore what I've said and focus on the negative issues I bring up with corporations.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

Also, there are various reasons why people are protesting.


[url=http://occupydallas.org/seriously-you-dont-know-why-were-here]Seriously... You Don't Know Why We're Here? | Occupy Dallas[/url]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

The reason banks went and gave out subprime mortgages like crazy was that they could pass off the risk on those mortgages to investors who bought mortgage-backed securities. They were protected from the risk those mortgages had and thus didn't give a damn about whether the mortgages would get paid off. Hence, it is a matter of incentives leading the banks to do what they did. It was, as an economics guy would call it, an agency problem, and specifically "moral hazard".
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard]Moral hazard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

And I wouldn't call the consumer blameless. Not many will sympathize with falling for advanced-fee fraud(i.e Nigerian scam) schemes, so why should those "hoodwinked" by banks get a pass. Not to mention that low credit score people usually have no inhibitions about lying their asses off or deliberately ****ing around with you into giving them money to spend(or in the case of renting, "ethical" leverage into not filing for an eviction or not paying rent).

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

Only one man can resolve this conflict...

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/nyregion/dark-knight-rises-to-film-near-occupy-wall-street-site.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto[/url]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=SmootSmack;849995]Only one man can resolve this conflict...

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/nyregion/dark-knight-rises-to-film-near-occupy-wall-street-site.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto[/url][/quote]

thats pretty funny and the added element should give a little life to keep this thing going.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

This stuff is all amusing and these hippies sure do know how to make people laugh. At the end of the day though the wall st crooks are still crooking and so are the lobbyists who have weekly scheduled meetings with our leaders.

Jon comes through again:

[URL="http://www.hulu.com/watch/ad/66080"]http://www.hulu.com/watch/290660/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-scorn-in-the-usa[/URL]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

This is fascinating/hilarious to me:

So OWS has raised about 500k which is great for their cause, but since OWS doesn’t really have a uniform message its causing some angst inside the movement. OWS, as a microcosm of a socialist society, appears to be sharing the same issues of any socialistic style of government.

Apparently there are different groups within the movement like the Kitchen Group, Sanitation Group, Finance Working Group, Comfort Working Group and of course Pulse Working Group (the bongo guys). All recognized groups are funded with money by the OWS’s General Assembly. Guess what???? Some groups don’t think they are getting enough or don’t like rules the OWS GA imposes on them, Imagine that!

Several days ago the Pulse Working Group had some of its drums vandalized, stolen, or messed up from rain. So they wanted $8,000 to get new drums but were turned down by their own General Assembly! The drummers are a major revenue raiser since people leave tips for their performances and while the drummers get to keep some of that money the GA has been accused of “taxing” the drummers at around 50% of their earnings. Then, to the drummer’s displeasure, the GA voted that the drummers can only play 2 hours a day (apparently nonstop drumming all day and night can get annoying), which was later revised to 4 hours a day. There is even speculation that the vandalism to the drummer’s drums was a inside job as the vandalism happened after the drummers didn’t abide by the rules the GA enforced upon them.

As you can imagine the Pulse Working Group is PISSED! But a lot of the working groups are pissed so a new SpokesCouncil model was created to streamline things. This allows each working group to act independently without securing the will of the collective…. Kind of like a democracy with special interest groups. This was in response because the “GA is unwieldy, cumbersome, and redundant.”, much like any overbearing socialist government we have seen throughout history no matter how well intentioned…..

Imagine if the drummers were free to do what they wanted to do with all the money they raised? So instead of surrendering their money for the collective good they could use their own money to provide for themselves. I mean some of the drummers have to be thinking this right? 18 year old Seth Harper eloquently said in reference to the OWS GA “They’re imposing a structure on the natural flow of music”. I couldn’t say it better myself…..

Sweet quotes:
[quote]

“And we’ve had issues with the drummers too. They drum incessantly all day, and really loud.” Facilitators spearheaded a General Assembly proposal to limit the drumming to two hours a day.

To Shane Engelerdt, a 19-year-old from Jersey City and self-described former “head drummer,” this amounted to a Jacobinic betrayal. “They are becoming the government we’re trying to protest," he said. "They didn’t even give the drummers a say ... Drumming is the heartbeat of this movement. Look around: This is dead, you need a pulse to keep something alive.”

The drummers claim that the finance working group even levied a percussion tax of sorts, taking up to half of the $150-300 a day that the drum circle was receiving in tips. “Now they have over $500,000 from all sorts of places,” said Engelerdt. “We’re like, what’s going on here? They’re like the banks we’re protesting."

Daniel Zetah, a 35-year-old lead facilitator from Minnesota, mounted a bench. “We need to clear this out. There are a bunch of kids coming to stay here.” One of the hoodied men fought back: “I’m not giving up my space for ****ing kids. They have parents and homes. My parents are dead. This is my space.”

“The sunshine protestors will leave,” said “Zonkers,” a 20-year-old cleaner and longtime occupier from Tennessee. (He asked that his name not be used due to a felony marijuana conviction.) “The people who remain are the people who care. You get a lot of crust punks, silly kids, people who want to panhandle ... It disgusts me. These people are here for a block party.”

A man named Sage Roberts desperately rifled through the pile, looking for a sleeping bag. “They’ve taken my stuff,” he muttered. Lauren Digion, the sanitation group leader, broke in: “This isn’t your stuff. You got all this stuff from comfort [the working group]. It belongs to comfort.”

“When cleanups happen, people get mad,” Glaser said. “This is its own city. Within every city there are people who freeload, who make people’s lives miserable. We just deal with it. We can’t kick them out.”

In response to dissatisfaction with the consensus General Assembly, many facilitators have adopted a new “spokescouncil” model, which allows each working group to act independently without securing the will of the collective. “This streamlines it,” argued Zonkers. “The GA is unwieldy, cumbersome, and redundant."

As the communal sleeping bag argument between Lauren Digion and Sage Roberts threatened to get out of hand, a facilitator in a red hat walked by, brow furrowed. “Remember? You’re not allowed to do any more interviews,” he said to Digion. She nodded and went back to work. But when Roberts shouted, “Don’t tell me what to do!” Digion couldn't hold back.

“Someone has to be told what to do," she said. "Someone needs to give orders. There’s no sense of order in this ****ing place.”
[/quote]

[url=http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10/occupy_animal_farm_the_organiz.html]The Organizers vs. the Organized in Zuccotti Park -- Daily Intel[/url]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

I know its been a few years sense i purchased any drums (ok its probably been 25 years) but $8,000 for new drums seems a little high.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

Ok so I went to you tube to look and I guess if you get enough people together with POS drums they can add up to $8000 over paying for new equipment. They should not call them self drummers because this is just a bunch of stoned guys betting on drums.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVCEvdqIFx0&feature=related]Occupy Wall street drummers-10/09/11 - YouTube[/ame]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=firstdown;851961]Ok so I went to you tube to look and I guess if you get enough people together with POS drums they can add up to $8000 over paying for new equipment. They should not call them self drummers because this is just a bunch of stoned guys betting on drums.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVCEvdqIFx0&feature=related"]Occupy Wall street drummers-10/09/11 - YouTube[/URL][/quote]


Its the heartbeat of the movement brah

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=mlmpetert;849661][URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20122659-504083.html"]Protester allegedly raped at 'Occupy Cleveland' - Crimesider - CBS News[/URL][/quote]


A couple other incidents:

[url=http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/]Police Investigating Possible Sexual Assault Of Teen At Occupy Dallas « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth[/url]

[url=http://www.ballardnewstribune.com/2011/10/18/police-blotter/update-serial-exposer-captured]UPDATE: Serial Exposer Captured | Ballard News-Tribune[/url]

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=mlmpetert;852103]A couple other incidents:

[URL="http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/"]Police Investigating Possible Sexual Assault Of Teen At Occupy Dallas « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth[/URL]

[URL="http://www.ballardnewstribune.com/2011/10/18/police-blotter/update-serial-exposer-captured"]UPDATE: Serial Exposer Captured | Ballard News-Tribune[/URL][/quote]


You just have to love this comment from a protester from the link of the under age teen.

“We’ll find out what the truth is and if that’s her story, that she was having sex with older men in the park, I guess we really need to watch the age group that’s coming in here and get control of that,” protestor Rich Coffman said.

LMAO, they want to be taken serious but we are suppose to turn a blind eye to the pot smoking, drinking and having sex in public. The important thing is that they start checking ID's to make sure the sluts are over 18. Any of you single guys here if you want to score head on over to your local protest. You get extra points if you have your own tent and have had a bath in the past 10 days.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

In the Occupy Dallas article, it says "Occupy Dallas organizers said they’ll implement a 10 p.m. curfew and check the identification of anyone seen walking the grounds after that time."

Wait a minute, isn't this a public park? Does the City have a curfew? Regardless, what gives them the right to ask for my ID? The inanity just continues.

Re: 'Occupy' types
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;852170]In the Occupy Dallas article, it says "Occupy Dallas organizers said they’ll implement a 10 p.m. curfew and check the identification of anyone seen walking the grounds after that time."

Wait a minute, isn't this a public park? Does the City have a curfew? Regardless, what gives them the right to ask for my ID? The inanity just continues.[/quote]

If the cops said that they would throw a fit about their rights. Funny how things come full circle.