Religion can be great but there are many examples where it abused. This is one of them. Violence is never the answer.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

human nature is not professional

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;940335]This is clearly a problem with "religion" overall, not violent Islamic extremist factions. I was just watching the news reports of violent mobs of Christians, Jews, Buhdists, moderate Muslims, etc. storming the Egyptian and Libyan embassies here in the U.S. in retaliation.

Last I checked the U.S. was providing many countries in the ME with billions (aggregate) in aid to improve people's standard of living and attempt to promote human rights.....bad U.S., very bad!


:frusty:[/QUOTE]

Might want to broaden your frame of reference a bit. Once you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty of violent behavior attributable to the western religions you mentioned. (hmm... Crusades? Salem witch trials? Catholic persecution of scientists)

And regarding the US, let's cut the shit. Any dollar that makes its way into the ME is sent with the underlying purpose of subverting their chosen way of life in favor of the western style which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided to force upon the rest of the world. If they want to live under an Islamist government, that's their right. We don't have the moral authority to get involved. If we had abstained from being so goddamned proactive in the affairs of other nations, there's a good chance that there would never have been a 9/11. Just because we send some funds their way does not mean we have the right to interfere.

With regards to the violence we're discussing, it can be boiled down to two simple factors:

1) religion provides the moral authority to do violence against those who have beliefs contrary to yours. (contrasted with agnostics and atheists who don't have any supernatural father figure to tell them it's alright to go mass murder each other)

2) the US has repeatedly ****ed with these people in such various and obscenely short sighted ways that we are now collectively reaping what we have sewn.

Those two pieces combined result in what we are experiencing now. Impossible to deny.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

yes, christians never pointlessly murder other religions. not in the crusades, not in the holocaust, not during the black plague (the first thing that happened is they blamed the jews and started killing them).

granted, those examples are a bit dated, but i'd says christians have killed plenty in their time too.

and you don't need to aggregate. egypt is scheduled to get 2billion from us next year alone as one of our non-NATO member allies.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940360]Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?[/quote]

to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

i always accept what i'm told as the truth

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940356]Might want to broaden your frame of reference a bit. Once you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty of violent behavior attributable to the western religions you mentioned. (hmm... Crusades? Salem witch trials? Catholic persecution of scientists)[/quote]Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references.

[quote]And regarding the US, let's cut the shit. Any dollar that makes its way into the ME is sent with the underlying purpose of subverting their chosen way of life in favor of the western style which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided to force upon the rest of the world. If they want to live under an Islamist government, that's their right. We don't have the moral authority to get involved. If we had abstained from being so goddamned proactive in the affairs of other nations, there's a good chance that there would never have been a 9/11. Just because we send some funds their way does not mean we have the right to interfere. [/quote]Any interference/funding in the ME has a lot more to do with secular U.S. interests (goodwill/positive outreach are generally better for business than violence) that promoting a religious agenda.

[quote]With regards to the violence we're discussing, it can be boiled down to two simple factors:

1) religion provides the moral authority to do violence against those who have beliefs contrary to yours. (contrasted with agnostics and atheists who don't have any supernatural father figure to tell them it's alright to go mass murder each other)

2) the US has repeatedly ****ed with these people in such various and obscenely short sighted ways that we are now collectively reaping what we have sewn.

Those two pieces combined result in what we are experiencing now. Impossible to deny.[/quote]While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative (and very condescending) statements against those who are religious. While you focus on the violence done by religious extremists, or those who manipulate people using religion, you never mention the vast good people who are religious do everyday in the name of their God/religion.

And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc. Japan's persecution of Christians in the 1600-1800s, Mexico's persecution in the early 1900s.

Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular. It's pretty old to hear athetists/agnostics bash religion every chance they get with weak arguments.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=That Guy;940363]to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.[/quote]

Suck to be that medieval.....
The can also hold a drone dropped JDAM up their wazoo then.

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[quote=BleedBurgundy;940307]Don't you just love religion. Look at our omnipotent deity working in mysterious ways! Isn't it glorious? Praise jeebus. Also, way to go America for [COLOR="Red"]sticking your collective nose where it doesn't belong for decades[/COLOR]. That policy is clearly working out for you. You should stick with that.[/quote]

Purely a matter of opinion, and since we are invited their by their govts in most cases that argument never held any water with me. Especially in Bin Ladens case.
Islam and Islamic extremists are not a govt nor are they a uniformed army.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

if bombs solved everything, america would be issue free. things just typically aren't that simple though.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;940380]Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references. [/quote]

A recent example? Damn, you got me... wait, except for this [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?pagewanted=all"]minor incident.[/URL] And [URL="http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_violence.html"]these...[/URL]

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;940380]
While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative ([B]and very condescending[/B]) statements against those who are religious.[/quote]

All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;940380]
And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc. [/quote]

No these regimes do not require holy authority, which is why in addition to my normal anti-religion shit talking I was also coming out against US Foreign Policy. (remember, there were two components of my argument...) We potentially kill innocents with every drone strike, let's not pretend we operate on a higher moral level. Also... with all of our awesome dedication to the sanctity of human life, we're still the only society that's ever done this:

[YT]AtSt5XZ7fq4[/YT]

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;940380]
Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular.[/quote]

Sammy, I don't know you personally, but I love you. In a completely old testament, love thy neighbor sort of way. That said, the above quote is borderline retarded. It's a complete straw man argument in that I never said Christians were run amok throughout the US causing mayhem. Or the majority of mayhem. But certainly SOME mayhem. When I think of crimes involving money, sex and drugs (oh so secular), i can't help but think of[URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/26/ted-haggard-sex-drugs-bri_n_160954.html"] this[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_PTL_Club#Scandal_and_subsequent_demise"]this[/URL], and, just because I'm originally from Lancaster, PA, i've got to include[URL="http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/01/amish.unholy.alliance/"] this.[/URL]

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?
You may be polarized by the atomic bomb but it was the best option at the time.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;940389][B]Purely a matter of opinion[/B], and since we are invited their by their govts in most cases that argument never held any water with me. Especially in Bin Ladens case.
Islam and Islamic extremists are not a govt nor are they a uniformed army.[/quote]

Surely, and of course the opinion of the invaders should carry more weight than that of the invaded. Also... for ****'s sake, let's remember that the US and USSR played a role in creating these terrorists. Would they exist in the same context as they currently do had those two nations not spent decades using them as pawns? I think it might have played a role. /condescending!

Sure, I'm a commie bastard... but what about our Secretary of State?

[YT]Dqn0bm4E9yw[/YT]

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940398]pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?[/quote]

No, do you?

And by the way... played the Hiroshima card? Seriously??? We vaporized two cities. And then have the audacity to make sure that other nations never get their hands on this dangerous technology (yet we made sure to buy enough of them to wipe out all life on the planet) because we can't trust them not to use it. We can't be trusted not to use it! In short... that's a big ****ing card when you're talking about hypocrisy.

I can't say whether that was right or wrong. Not making that argument. Just saying that we as country get really preachy when history shows that we're not shy about ****ing people up who are ideologically opposed to us.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940400]No, do you?[/quote]

Yea, and so do a lot of other people.
Far more than that what the nukes killed.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940400]No, do you?

And by the way... played the Hiroshima card? Seriously??? We vaporized two cities. And then have the audacity to make sure that other nations never get their hands on this dangerous technology (y[COLOR="Red"]et we made sure to buy enough of them to wipe out all life on the planet[/COLOR]) because we can't trust them not to use it. We can't be trusted not to use it! In short... that's a big ****ing card when you're talking about hypocrisy.

I can't say whether that was right or wrong. Not making that argument. Just saying that we as country get really preachy when history shows that we're not shy about ****ing people up who are ideologically opposed to us.[/quote]

If you understood and or lived thru the entire cold war you would understand why we did that.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940401]Yea, and so do a lot of other people.
Far more than that what the nukes killed.[/quote]

I'm looking for a number, since you're being definitive on one quantity vs. another. Obviously there is no such number. It's hypothetical.

That said, I think we can agree that it was the biggest single attack on a civilian population in the entire history of human civilization. And why do we hate terrorists? Oh yeah, because they're willing to blow up non-combatant citizens. You can't make the argument for one and not the other. It just doesn't exist. The only differentiator is scale.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940403]I'm looking for a number, since you're being definitive on one quantity vs. another. Obviously there is no such number. It's hypothetical.

That said, I think we can agree that it was the biggest single attack on a civilian population in the entire history of human civilization. And why do we hate terrorists? Oh yeah, because they're willing to blow up non-combatant citizens. You can't make the argument for one and not the other. It just doesn't exist. The only differentiator is scale.[/quote]

Hiroshima was a military target that was chosen because of its industry, naval ports and military headquarters. Not because of its civilian population.
Pretty common knowledge.....

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940402]If you understood and or lived thru the entire cold war you would understand why we did that.[/quote]

Would there have been a cold war if the US wasn't so goddamned self assured that their form of government didn't have to be [B]the[/B] prevailing form of government for other nations? No, we played the who's got a bigger dick game and, luckily, won. Doesn't mean that we didn't open pandora's box.

Look, this is getting really off track... I think i've made my case, which is simply that the US is both hypocritical and grossly arrogant in it's foreign policy, and that as a partial result of that hypocrisy/arrogance the Middle East pays a price in terms of borderline constant destabilization. The region has historically been a cluster ****, but that doesn't mean we haven't contributed a whole lot of f*ckery to the equation.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;940404]Hiroshima was a military target that was chosen because of its industry, naval ports and military headquarters. Not because of its civilian population.
Pretty common knowledge.....[/quote]

So the civilians weren't there? Imagine this was some afghani saying "the cafe was chosen because military personnel held meetings there." Would that be ok? Because it's the same ****ing thing on an exponentially smaller scale.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

You expected us to go to war with Japan without creating any collateral damage?
:rofl:
Please go read up on a A LOT of history before you respond.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940407]You expected us to go to war with Japan without creating any collateral damage?
:rofl:
Please go read up on a A LOT of history before you respond.[/quote]

It's not "collateral" when it's the primary target. Feel free to read the below definition before you respond.

Collateral Damage
: injury inflicted on something other than an intended target
merriam-webster

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

You're either a troll or only 12 years old.
Or possibly you have a dove shoved so far up your a$$ that you have lost connection with reality.

Game. Set. Match.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940397]All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)
[/quote]EDIT: duplicate post...see below

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940397]All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)
[/quote]I'm very sorry you've had some sort of bad experiences with over-zealous Christians or something of that nature. I won't change your mind, but I will pray for you.

Hopefully, you will open your mind to accept the fact that although you can find examples of violence in the name of religion, you will find a whole heck of a lot more good that is done by people (of all faiths) in the name of their religion. And most religious folks are genuinely good people.

God Bless.

As far as your issues with U.S. policies, you sound completely ashamed of and disgusted by our country and its actions. If I felt as you appear to, I would renounce my citizenship and find a better place to call home.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;940410]You're either a troll or only 12 years old.
Or possibly you have a dove shoved so far up your a$$ that [B]you have lost connection with reality[/B].[/quote]You can't win with BB. You can make a completely cogent agrument that blows up his angry and incoherent babble and he'll shift to more nonsense about how terrible the U.S. is or it's all Christians' fault.

Your point about him studying some more history is sure to fall on deaf ears, as facts about why the U.S. was brought into WWII, or why we were at odds with the USSR in the first place don't sync-up with his points.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Ah well...why debate with facts when you can say so much more with off the hip emotion hype......

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

yes, because anyone who has an arguement that doesn't agree with your world view is obviously an idiot, a troll, or out of touch.

every major religion and most major powers have done terrible things.

remember, iran was a democracy till the US/UK blew it up for english oil interests in the 1950s. the US put saddam, the taliban, and the shah into power. the allied powers sorta kicked the palestinians out of palestine in the 1940s, so all of this meddling in the ME/SWA has caused some long term problems for us there.

that doesn't mean that we're evil or that muslims are all super violent monsters. a lot of bad sh$% has happened over the years on both sides and the generalizations don't really help.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

I find it amusing when people suggest we should have been more humane to the Japanese while they were trying to conquer the world while slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people.

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;940431]You can't win with BB. You can make a completely cogent agrument that blows up his angry and incoherent babble and he'll shift to more nonsense about how terrible the U.S. is or it's all Christians' fault.

Your point about him studying some more history is sure to fall on deaf ears, as facts about why the U.S. was brought into WWII, or why we were at odds with the USSR in the first place don't sync-up with his points.[/QUOTE]

Or, what I'm saying is that when these violent events happen, it's important to realize the underlying causes.

In my opinion, the US has a habit of getting much too involved when it comes to how other nations govern themselves. No only do we stick our national nose where it doesn't belong but we happen to be really bad at it. The end result is that we end up fighting wars to force a system of government on people who, based on results to date, don't want it. (and don't have to want it) There seems to be this thought among some people here that we automatically have the right to engage in the internal affairs of sovereign nations. I disagree. (and please don't point to 9/11 as a blanket justification for any of this - without a shitload of shady actions on the part of the US, the case could be made that there never would have been a 9/11)

Regarding the religion thing, and I'm really trying to be respectful here, the fact that these "terrorists" (talk about a word with an ever broadening definition) happen to believe in a completely different faith then the vast majority of Americans, well, that just makes it so much easier to objectify and pigeon hole them doesn't it? They don't believe in our god or our system of govt? Let's get those ****ing heathens! They need our help, ignorant violent bastards. They really should thank us for coming into their society (which has existed multiple orders of magnitude longer than our own) and forcing leaders who support us into power.

I'm providing a counter point to the above position.

[QUOTE=Alvin Walton;940451]I find it amusing when people suggest we should have been more humane to the Japanese while they were trying to conquer the world while slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people.[/QUOTE]

This is where you are confused. I'm not making any claims a far as right or wrong. What I'm saying is that we don't get to both blow up a couple hundred thousand civilians, justify it militarily, and then play the morality card when others do the exact same thing (on a much smaller scale).

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[quote=BleedBurgundy;940472]This is where you are confused. I'm not making any claims a far as right or wrong. What I'm saying is that [COLOR="Red"]we don't get to [/COLOR]both blow up a couple hundred thousand civilians, justify it militarily, and then play the morality card when others do the exact same thing (on a much smaller scale).[/quote]

Yes we do.
And we do it with a proper calling card and uniformed soldiers.
Bin Laden and his buddies changed the rules when they chose to start a conflict anonymously. Any collateral damage is their fault AFAIC.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940472]This is where you are confused. I'm not making any claims a far as right or wrong. What I'm saying is that we don't get to both blow up a couple hundred thousand civilians, justify it militarily, and then play the morality card when others do the exact same thing (on a much smaller scale).[/quote]I was unaware that the US had taken airliners loaded with civilian men, women, and children, and flown them into office buildings of a country that had not declared war on their country. (In fact, we were invited into Saudi Arabia by their government.)

"Exact same thing" indeed. :doh: You made a claim of right and wrong, and failed badly at it.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;940477]Yes we do.
And we do it with a proper calling card and uniformed soldiers.
Bin Laden and his buddies changed the rules when they chose to start a conflict anonymously. Any collateral damage is their fault AFAIC.[/quote]

and once again, i'm sure the people you advocate accidently killing wouldn't possibly mis-direct their hate at the americans that are actually killing them instead of the terrorists that "made them do it".

that's the same excuse abusive husbands use.

this thread seems to be going in circles, but i personally don't think there's justification to kill thousands of innocent civillians just because they're located in the wrong part of the world, and i don't think that kind of work helps our standing or safety in any way. we should go after the bad guys, but not by shooting everything in sight.

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[QUOTE=That Guy;940551]and once again, i'm sure the people you advocate accidently killing wouldn't possibly mis-direct their hate at the americans that are actually killing them instead of the terrorists that "made them do it".

that's the same excuse abusive husbands use.

this thread seems to be going in circles, but i personally don't think there's justification to kill thousands of innocent civillians just because they're located in the wrong part of the world, and i don't think that kind of work helps our standing or safety in any way. we should go after the bad guys, but not by shooting everything in sight.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the information that we justify killing thousands of innocent civilians just because they're located in the wrong part of the world. And not to help take down a brutal dictator. And that we shoot everything in sight when we do so.

It's not the people killing over a movie they don't like, that are the problem. We are the problem.

If we accept the random killing, ethnic cleansing, driving people of a certain religion out of their homes, and burning of churches, is our fault, things will be better. We'll be in better standing and safety......... "abusive husbands" syndrome indeed.

[QUOTE=That Guy;940551]and once again, i'm sure the people you advocate accidently killing wouldn't possibly mis-direct their hate at the americans that are actually killing them instead of the terrorists that "made them do it".

that's the same excuse abusive husbands use.

this thread seems to be going in circles, but i personally don't think there's justification to kill thousands of innocent civillians just because they're located in the wrong part of the world, and i don't think that kind of work helps our standing or safety in any way. we should go after the bad guys, but not by shooting everything in sight.[/QUOTE]

I can't understand why this is such a hard concept for some to comprehend or accept. And if you acknowledge that our actions in the past have played some part in the current climate, you're some kind of anti-American asshole. It's no wonder we keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

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[quote=BleedBurgundy;940596]I can't understand why this is such a hard concept for some to comprehend or accept. And if you acknowledge that our actions in the past have played some part in the current climate, you're some kind of anti-American asshole. It's no wonder we keep making the same mistakes over and over again.[/quote]Thatguy's premise is faulty, and his conclusion best applied to his own argument rather than current policy.

Sure we aren't perfect or saints. But seriously, what "actions (of ours) in the past play some part in the current climate" over there, of storming embassies and killing people over a movie?

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940307]Also, way to go America for sticking your collective nose where it doesn't belong for decades. That policy is clearly working out for you. You should stick with that.[/quote]

Agree totally. Our fail foreign policy is only creating more enemies across the world.


[quote=hooskins;940340]Religion can be great but there are many examples where it abused. This is one of them. Violence is never the answer.[/quote]


Tell that to our founding fathers. Violence is sometimes the answer. Not in this case though.



[quote=Alvin Walton;940360]Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?[/quote]


Well, the KKK hangs on tightly to it's religious beliefs and we know all too well what they are capable of. There is a lot of violence from christianity over the years as well.




[quote=Alvin Walton;940401]Yea, and so do a lot of other people.
Far more than that what the nukes killed.[/quote]

You can't say that because you simply don't know. Not that I don't disagree with your point in regards to how we attacked them and why we attacked that particular place.





[quote=That Guy;940443]remember, iran was a democracy till the US/UK blew it up for english oil interests in the 1950s. the US put saddam, the taliban, and the shah into power. the allied powers sorta kicked the palestinians out of palestine in the 1940s, so all of this meddling in the ME/SWA has caused some long term problems for us there.[/quote]

THIS is so key to it all. People talk about "knowing history", yet refuse to actually look at history. We are largely reponsible for the instability in the middle east right now and it's all about oil. It's always been about oil.




[quote=Alvin Walton;940477]Yes we do.
And we do it with a proper calling card and uniformed soldiers.
Bin Laden and his buddies changed the rules when they chose to start a conflict anonymously. Any collateral damage is their fault AFAIC.[/quote]

No, we really can't. Well, not without being a huge hypocrite.