Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

and i doubt they suspend them... was this before the cba? i thought the league had no jurisdiction over that period of time...

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=mooby;859224]You know, these "Suck for Luck" fans may actually be the root cause of why, somewhere, deep down, a tiny part of me wants Luck to be a bust so all the "S4L" fans would just eat some massive crow, which is just a kinder way of me saying I would like them to stfu.[/quote]

The part of me that thinks we have no shot at getting him makes me wish the same thing.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

All I can picture is Cartman saying...."sweeeeeeeet".

Recreational drugs. Wow. Hey where are the "let's trade Cooley" fans?

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

I really hate when people use "realism" as a defense for their beliefs.

The only realistic thing is that we know nothing until it's all said and done. Nobody is a sure thing.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

If anyone on this team has been taking performance enhancers they should go get thier money back. Shit they should give performance enhancers to the whole fn team!! And coaches.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

Let's remember that these are young men with a lot of time and money on their hands. Not making any excuses for them, they should know better, but I'm not going to kill these guys for doing "recreational" drugs during the off season. Hopefully it won't happen again.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;859214]So you think its better to not have the no. 1 overall pick and to have the no.4-7 overall pick? Or in other words you'd rather have an unknown at 4-7 than a "sure thing" who has yet to have a negative critic from a scout against him?

We are in NFL Purgatory my friend. What's that saying, once you hit rock bottom, there's nowhere to go but up!

[B]And are they cowards, or are they the realistic ones[/B] that are smart enough to realize that this team isn't good and wants whats best for the team down the road instead of more sooner...[/quote]

Answer: Suck for Luck fans are cowards. Wanting your team to lose, for whatever reason, is cowardly. Period.

From a certain point of view it is rational to beat up and rob weak old ladies. But such an action not only is illegal, it is also cowardly. Suck for Luck is similarly cowardly.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=That Guy;859233]it'd be better if he didn't suck, considering we're #2 in the running right now.[/quote]

I know this is nit picking, because yes I know we are bad, but if the season ended today, we would pick at # 9 per [url=http://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/2012.htm]2012 NFL Draft Pick Pending Transactions[/url]

and there are 5 teams with worse records than us, and 6 with the same record. Not quite sure how we are # 2 in the running.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;859260]I know this is nit picking, because yes I know we are bad, but if the season ended today, we would pick at # 9 per [URL="http://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/2012.htm"]2012 NFL Draft Pick Pending Transactions[/URL]

and there are 5 teams with worse records than us, and 6 with the same record. Not quite sure how we are # 2 in the running.[/quote]

because we're worse then them and we've still got a lot of games to play. 2 more guys to IR this week.

that's also a week old and the seahawks, dolphins, rams, and jags all won, so we've moved up to #7 already.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

and I haven't checked the schedule yet, but next week we could potentially move into #2 assuming the vikes win tonight and all the 2 win teams win next week... that's probably too far to go in 1 week, but it's cool cause we have 7 :P being #2 really doesn't help us though when you look at it as a 1 player draft.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=Lotus;859256]Answer: Suck for Luck fans are cowards. Wanting your team to lose, for whatever reason, is cowardly. Period.

From a certain point of view it is rational to beat up and rob weak old ladies. But such an action not only is illegal, it is also cowardly. Suck for Luck is similarly cowardly.[/quote]

yes, these two things are exactly equal. In every way.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=That Guy;859449]yes, these two things are exactly equal. In every way.[/quote]

I didn't say equal. I said similar.

And I didn't say "in every way." I mentioned one, discreet way.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

bad example.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

The poster above claimed that his statement was not "cowardly," it was instead "rational," as if the two were opposites. The point is that they are not opposites.

Since you disliked my example, let me offer more:
1) It is rational for a soldier in war to ditch his buddies to die so that he can save his own skin. However, such behavior is cowardly.

2) If one wants candy, it is rational to take it from little kids because they are easily overpowered. However, such behavior is cowardly.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=Lotus;859514]The poster above claimed that his statement was not "cowardly," it was instead "rational," as if the two were opposites. The point is that they are not opposites.

Since you disliked my example, let me offer more:
1) It is rational for a soldier in war to ditch his buddies to die so that he can save his own skin. However, such behavior is cowardly.

2) If one wants candy, it is rational to take it from little kids because they are easily overpowered. However, such behavior is cowardly.[/quote]

You're giving extreme real life examples of cowards, but in no way should you ever compare a past time or interest such as rooting for a team, and a solider ditching his soliders in war. And no they aren't similar. The solider is looking out for himself, the suck for luck fans are looking out for their team and fanbase for the future. Do not ever compare that. You are giving awful examples, thus should stop talking on this subject.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;859548]You're giving extreme real life examples of cowards, but in no way should you ever compare a past time or interest such as rooting for a team, and a solider ditching his soliders in war. And no they aren't similar. The solider is looking out for himself, [B]the suck for luck fans are looking out for their team and fanbase for the future. [/B]Do not ever compare that. You are giving awful examples, thus should stop talking on this subject.[/quote]

No. You completely missed the point. Whether "Suck for Luck" is really rational is open to debate. What is certain is that, rational or not, "Suck for Luck" is cowardly because it means rooting for your team to lose. What you call "rational" Suck for Luck is cowardly no matter how you slice it.

You are not looking out for your team. You are rooting for the Redskins to lose just like any Cowboy fan does. That is patently cowardly.

Of course you are the same person who called racism "rational." So much for your version of "rational": your version of "rational" is both racist and cowardly.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=Lotus;859558]No. You completely missed the point. Whether "Suck for Luck" is really rational is open to debate. What is certain is that, rational or not, "Suck for Luck" is cowardly because it means rooting for your team to lose. What you call "rational" Suck for Luck is cowardly no matter how you slice it.

You are not looking out for your team. You are rooting for the Redskins to lose just like any Cowboy fan does. That is patently cowardly.

Of course you are the same person who called racism "rational." So much for your version of "rational": your version of "rational" is both racist and cowardly.[/quote]

Year 1 = Suck, Year 2= develop and build around luck, Years 3-12= become good, consistent team. Thats what Luck fans want. That's 1 maybe 2 bad years, and several years of good consistency.

Where as Skin fans against Sucking for Luck get a decent year, bad year, bad year, decent year, ...for the next 15 years and stay in the same place of mediocrity or laughing stalk of the NFL depending on the year.

(You can argue that you shouldn't put assumptions into Luck being good, that he could be a bust, but the reality is that A) He's better than any other QB we've had in the past 20 years. B) He has yet to have a negative scout against him. C) He's a more sure thing than other QB's that have come out in years past. D) If he is a bust, then he fooled everyone, because like I said no scout see's him being a bust.)

I don't know about you but I'd go the suck now, be good later route, than the try now and still suck year after year route. Just watch other teams, they have an awful year, and they build around that huge 1st overall pick, the teams that pick in the mid-first half of the draft usually stay there.


Again, I've always been told not to argue with an idiot because they make you look like the idiot in the end.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;859591]Year 1 = Suck, Year 2= develop and build around luck, Years 3-12= become good, consistent team. Thats what Luck fans want. That's 1 maybe 2 bad years, and several years of good consistency.

Where as Skin fans against Sucking for Luck get a decent year, bad year, bad year, decent year, ...for the next 15 years and stay in the same place of mediocrity or laughing stalk of the NFL depending on the year.

(You can argue that you shouldn't put assumptions into Luck being good, that he could be a bust, but the reality is that A) He's better than any other QB we've had in the past 20 years. B) He has yet to have a negative scout against him. C) He's a more sure thing than other QB's that have come out in years past. D) If he is a bust, then he fooled everyone, because like I said no scout see's him being a bust.)

I don't know about you but I'd go the suck now, be good later route, than the try now and still suck year after year route. Just watch other teams, they have an awful year, and they build around that huge 1st overall pick, the teams that pick in the mid-first half of the draft usually stay there.


Again, [B]I've always been told not to argue with an idiot because they make you look like the idiot in the end.[/B][/quote]

I get the so-called "logic" of the "Suck for Luck" argument. I got it a long time ago. Everyone gets the argument. Given that it is posed at a fourth-grade level, it is not hard to understand.

Let's put aside the fact that this "logic" is chock full of unverifiable assumptions which pass as "logic."

The indisputable ground floor is that it requires rooting against the Skins. The fact that you are willing to leave this year's team for dead by actively rooting against them makes your argument cowardly.

Given that you root against the Skins just like a Cowboys fan does, I suggest you hang out on a Cowboys board where you can mingle with like-minded individuals.

Finally, I don't have to make you look like an idiot. You once again are doing a great job of that all by yourself.

How about we keep this thread in topic? We have other threads to discuss Luck? Including a thread just for him

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=Lotus;859598]I get the so-called "logic" of the "Suck for Luck" argument. I got it a long time ago. Everyone gets the argument. Given that it is posed at a fourth-grade level, it is not hard to understand.

Let's put aside the fact that this "logic" is chock full of unverifiable assumptions which pass as "logic."

The indisputable ground floor is that it requires rooting against the Skins. The fact that you are willing to leave this year's team for dead by actively rooting against them makes your argument cowardly.

Given that you root against the Skins just like a Cowboys fan does, I suggest you hang out on a Cowboys board where you can mingle with like-minded individuals.

Finally, I don't have to make you look like an idiot. You once again are doing a great job of that all by yourself.[/quote]

I'd rather root for my team to lose one year, and root for them to win the rest of my life, than root for an inconsistent, broken, gives you hope but fails franchise year after year after year.

Also on the whole cowboys thing why would I go from one dysfunctional franchise to another..

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;859606][B]I'd rather root for my team to lose one year[/B], and root for them to win the rest of my life, than root for an inconsistent, broken, gives you hope but fails franchise year after year after year.

Also on the whole cowboys thing why would I go from one dysfunctional franchise to another..[/quote]

I know I'm just focusing on one portion of your statement, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. And I respect your desire for us to Suck for Luck, but as a fan, I can't stand seeing my team losing even if it does mean getting an all-star player next season. And as someone who used to play team sports, I can't just give up even if we were a bad team.

I just can't root for or respect a team of quitters.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

I fail to see how wanting luck is cowardly or in any way like leaving a soldier to die. can we please stop being ridiculous and over the top? thanks.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;859606][B]I'd rather root for my team to lose one year, and root for them to win the rest of my life, than root for an inconsistent, broken, gives you hope but fails franchise year after year after year.[/B]

Also on the whole cowboys thing why would I go from one dysfunctional franchise to another..[/quote]

Your statement is a false either/or. Those aren't the only two possible outcomes. That makes your statement irrational.

Further, rooting for your team to lose is cowardly.

So I'll end this conversation by saying that I get you now. You not only argue for irrational and cowardly things, you will insist on doing so.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=That Guy;859632]I fail to see how wanting luck is cowardly or in any way like leaving a soldier to die. can we please stop being ridiculous and over the top? thanks.[/quote]

I respectfully offer that you have missed my point. The point never was that Suck for Luck is exactly like being a soldier. The point was that "cowardly" and "rational" are not logical opposites.

Wanting Luck is not cowardly. We all would like to have Luck. However, leaving your team to suffer, even hoping that your team suffers, is cowardly.

But since you don't like the word "coward," please feel free to use DynamiteRave's term instead: rooting for your team to lose is the path of a "quitter."

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;859609]I know I'm just focusing on one portion of your statement, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. And I respect your desire for us to Suck for Luck, but as a fan, I can't stand seeing my team losing even if it does mean getting an all-star player next season. And as someone who used to play team sports, I can't just give up even if we were a bad team.

[B]I just can't root for or respect a team of quitters[/B].[/quote]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

One of the most storied NBA franchises, the Boston Celtics, recently "tanked" to try to get the top pick. I don't think Celtics fans care one way or another about it to be honest.

Not saying we should tank, just playing Devil's Advocate.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

The "suck for Luck" debate is an interesting case of ethics at work.

I am just making a comment.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=hooskins;859708]One of the most storied NBA franchises, the Boston Celtics, recently "tanked" to try to get the top pick. I don't think Celtics fans care one way or another about it to be honest.

Not saying we should tank, just playing Devil's Advocate.[/quote]

The NBA system, or former system, led to a lot of that, though I never heard anyone say it directly. The guaranteed contracts & cap put teams in a position to gut the roster for financial & competitive reasons. The Wizards did it a couple years ago & it was obvious to any fan that they were starting over.

Easier to do when there are 2-3 big contracts that can be offloaded to create huge cap space. The NFL is harder to do that in w/guaranteed money escalating in trades, but I think you see plenty of teams purging players & cap space. It may not be tanking per se but it's often implied.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=hooskins;859708]One of the most storied NBA franchises, the Boston Celtics, recently "tanked" to try to get the top pick. I don't think Celtics fans care one way or another about it to be honest.

Not saying we should tank, just playing Devil's Advocate.[/quote]

Well in that case tanking didn't exactly result in them winning, because they didn't get the top pick they wanted to go after Oden or Durant. They just got lucky that Minny was willing to trade Garnett.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

Ruhskins and freddy, I agree with everything you have said. I am just making the point that "tanking" happens with major storied franchises.

Does the structure of the NBA make it morally ok, or less wrong, to tank? To me, tanking is tanking.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=hooskins;859722]Ruhskins and freddy, I agree with everything you have said. I am just making the point that "tanking" happens with major storied franchises.

Does the structure of the NBA make it morally ok, or less wrong, to tank? To me, tanking is tanking.[/quote]

Gotcha.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

Hey can we now rename Davis and Williams to "Cheech and Chong"?

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=hooskins;859708]One of the most storied NBA franchises, the Boston Celtics, recently "tanked" to try to get the top pick. I don't think Celtics fans care one way or another about it to be honest.

Not saying we should tank, just playing Devil's Advocate.[/quote]

I'm a huge Celtics fan and have been for over 40 years. You're right. I don't care that they tanked that one season away. Danny Ainge and the Celtics were pretty honest with their fan base. They didn't admit to tanking per say but we knew from the day Ainge took over that he planned to accumulate assets and turn those assets into another superstars or in this case two superstars to pair with Paul Pierce. He spelled that out in the first month he was on board. Had he not gotten that high pick(#5 if memory serves me right) and drafted well for a few years he never lands Ray Allen and therefore Kevin Garnett never relents to be traded to Boston.

The problem with the Skins is for the past almost 20 years it seems there hasn't ever been a plan or a plan that Snyder has stuck with long enough see it succeed. For the first time in a long time it seems like Allen/Shannahan have a plan for the Redskins IMO. I felt this way when Ainge took over in Boston but it took him almost 5 years to turn straw into gold. At least he had a plan which was something the Celtics hadn't seen since Auerbach all but retired in the late 80's. It worked out in Boston. I hope it does the same in Washington but it take time and patience to see it through.

I'm willing to see a couple of bad seasons because that's what it takes to rebuild a terribly run team as the Skins have been for a long time. I still root for them every Sunday like I rooted for the not ready for prime time Celtics Pre-Big Three but I'm realistic. The Skin's don't currently have the talent to contend. It is time this fan base and it's owner realizes that and be patient.

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=TrustinGibbs;859801]I'm a huge Celtics fan and have been for over 40 years. You're right. I don't care that they tanked that one season away. Danny Ainge and the Celtics were pretty honest with their fan base. They didn't admit to tanking per say but we knew from the day Ainge took over that he planned to accumulate assets and turn those assets into another superstars or in this case two superstars to pair with Paul Pierce. He spelled that out in the first month he was on board. Had he not gotten that high pick(#5 if memory serves me right) and drafted well for a few years he never lands Ray Allen and therefore Kevin Garnett never relents to be traded to Boston.

The problem with the Skins is for the past almost 20 years it seems there hasn't ever been a plan or a plan that Snyder has stuck with long enough see it succeed. For the first time in a long time it seems like Allen/Shannahan have a plan for the Redskins IMO. I felt this way when Ainge took over in Boston but it took him almost 5 years to turn straw into gold. At least he had a plan which was something the Celtics hadn't seen since Auerbach all but retired in the late 80's. It worked out in Boston. I hope it does the same in Washington but it take time and patience to see it through.

I'm willing to see a couple of bad seasons because that's what it takes to rebuild a terribly run team as the Skins have been for a long time. I still root for them every Sunday like I rooted for the not ready for prime time Celtics Pre-Big Three but I'm realistic. The Skin's don't currently have the talent to contend. It is time this fan base and it's owner realizes that and be patient.[/quote]

word

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;859609]I know I'm just focusing on one portion of your statement, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. And I respect your desire for us to Suck for Luck, but as a fan, I can't stand seeing my team losing even if it does mean getting an all-star player next season. [B]And as someone who used to play team sports, I can't just give up even if we were a bad team. [/B]

I just can't root for or respect a team of quitters.[/quote]

This is true, respectable, and a much better answer than other people have been giving.

The whole root of my argument and bottom line, was basically "don't be mad skin fans when Andrew Lucks making Pro Bowl after Pro Bowl and appearing in Super Bowls, being like Oh we could have had him!" Ya we could have if we had sucked! We already suck enough to win 3 games, whats the difference between winning 3 games and 1? (Its a rhetorical question. Don't answer with 2)

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;859609]I know I'm just focusing on one portion of your statement, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that. And I respect your desire for us to Suck for Luck, but as a fan, I can't stand seeing my team losing even if it does mean getting an all-star player next season. And as someone who used to play team sports, I can't just give up even if we were a bad team.

[B][U]I just can't root for or respect a team of quitters[/U][/B].[/quote]

Ah sure you can i've been doing it for years, its really fun!!! Find me Sunday and ill show you how to do it!!

Re: Report: Trent Williams and Fred Davis Facing Suspension
 

[quote=Lotus;859662]I respectfully offer that you have missed my point. The point never was that Suck for Luck is exactly like being a soldier. The point was that "cowardly" and "rational" are not logical opposites.

Wanting Luck is not cowardly. We all would like to have Luck. However, leaving your team to suffer, even hoping that your team suffers, is cowardly.

But since you don't like the word "coward," please feel free to use DynamiteRave's term instead: rooting for your team to lose is the path of a "quitter."[/quote]

No, I don't see the point in bring up dead soldiers or how they have anything to do with a horrible football team. Maybe you've never seen a dead soldier, but it's kind of offensive to me. You're entitled to your opinion, but realizing your team sucks isn't cowardly, it's realistic.

I'm not rooting for them to fail, but I'm not really seeing too many wins in the future. If you'd like to play the blind optimist, because, that's like, really brave, I'll do $20 a game for the rest of the season, taking them for a loss every time.

And how is anyone "leaving their team to suffer" ? are the redskins losing because we're not cheering hard enough, or because a butterfly posted on a message board about them not being good enough? and, as you know, the media's coverage is also hugely responsible for wins and losses...

This thread is going nowhere