Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;862220]This season started with promise. I look at the bye week as the turning point. The Redskins were 3-1 heading into the bye week. After the bye week the Redskins suffered six straight losses and are therefore 3-7. Would this have happened had the bye week come after week 8 or week 7. That bye week is a jinx. I never liked it. I always felt that the bye week should be after half the games have been played. It seemed to me that the bye week derailed the fierce momentum the Redskins had before it.[/quote]

we got creamed by the eagles shanahan did not have a good plan in that game we came out flat and paid the price the injuries in this game were a killer

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;862266]Um, he had a few thousand posts before this one.[/quote]

Pretty sure he just meant first post in this thread

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=#56fanatic;862247]I for one am very excited about the future of my Washington Redskins. This year started out with a lot of excitement, but reality sets in and you see why the experts are the experts prodicting us to win 3 or 4 games, and be in the running for the #1 pick.

As far as Shanahan, I am liking what I see. Players seem to be buying into what he is selling, and really holding themselves accountable. I have been waiting for this organization to build this team the right way and finally I am getting what I have wished for every christmas for the last 10 years.

I can see the young talent being injected into this team and if you look at it, it really is exciting to think of the possibilities of the future, which honestly is a year to two away.

I wont even discuss the QB because we all know where that is going.

But the youth at RB with Hightower, Helu, Torain (which probably wont be around next year)
WR with Hankerson, Paul, Austin, Armstrong
TE with Davis
offensive line - Williams, Lichinsteiger, Montgomery, Chester and Brown are late 20's I believe (29ish)
D line - Bowen, Cofield,(not sure the age, but under 30) and Jenkins who is going to be a stud. Rotating Neild, a 7th rounder mind you.
LB core, come on Orakpo, Kerrigan, RILEY, jackson - i think we'll draft a LB somewhere this years draft
Corners and safeties. Hall isn't old (but better step it up) Barnes, Landry, Westbrooke (so,so)

really this team is headed in the right direction. I hope Snyder gives Shanny 4 good seasons to build this thing and reap the benefits because we are going to build a winner here. Allen has proven he can build a winner in Tampa and Oakland. Two superbowls as a GM in a short span. These guys will get it done, Danny just needs to give it 4 or 5 years and we'll be a consistant winner again.[/quote]


Good post I feel the same HTTR!

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=Paintrain;862052]So here we sit 10 games into another lost season, one that started with what turns out to be false hope. Injuries and overall crappy play have been the signatures of what we've seen and calls for the coach's head have predictably started. I was thinking over the past two weeks about how bad our overall roster is and it's been pointed out that Shanny has turned over about 70% of the roster he inherited from Zorn/Vinny so this is 'his team/his fault'. CLKSM-5400170

Food for thought on the Shanaplan as I see it:
1. 2010 season-Shanny 'went for it' by going after McNabb but otherwise, started the season with pretty much the same core roster and starters. Think about our starting offense on opening day last year outside of T. Williams and McNabb. Portis, Sellers, Rabach, Dockery, Cooley, Moss were all returning. The change to the 3-4 was questionable but necessary for the long term. This was a way to gauge what he had, who fit-who didn't and to see how big of a project was ahead of him or see if he could win with what was here. The 2010 draft class contributed starters in Trent Williams, Perry Riley and Adam Carriker (via trade) and depth players in Terrence Austin and Brandon Banks (RFA) plus Erik Cook who is on the roster but showed in his brief action he's probably not an NFL player.

2. 2011 offseason-this was a complete bust as a result of the lockout. At the beginning of the season it seemed that the loss of OTA's and the offseason wasn't a big deal but as we got into the depth of the roster we saw a dramatic dropoff. The gap between raw talent and coached skill was huge. We also saw the slow development of rookies like Hankerson and Paul where a full offseason would have made an impact. However, as noted in a separate thread, our draft class has given us at least 7 players (Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Paul, Hurt, Neild) who will likely contribute in 2012 and beyond. In two years, we've added 10-12 players via the draft who should be valuable through their rookie contracts.

In addition, with a whole offseason, I think the Beck experiment would have never happened. I think another veteran QB would have been brought in to truly compete for the starting job and Beck-mania never would have gotten off the ground.

3. 2011 season-Let's be real, this season sucks. A good start, a hard crash down to reality. Reality as I see it is that we still have one of the worst rosters in the league, probably bottom 2 or 3 from a talent perspective. I've stated that no more than 6 of our 22 starters could start for a competitive NFL team. That being said, we are making progress. This is our first season of truly 'rebuilding'. Last year was trying to win with what was here + a vet QB. This year is playing young players to see who develops and who is not a piece to work with going forward. For the rest of the season we will continue to see young players get experience and players who won't be here getting phased out. Positives are the play of Kerrigan, Jenkins in the preseason, Helu, Paul and Neild. Hankerson showed the light starting to come on before his injury. Our 2010 rookies have played decently, none have fallen off from their prior season performance which is a positive.

4. 2012 offseason-This is where the work begins to take shape. Our strategy should be clear. Get a QB, get a playmaking WR, build depth on the OL, get a CB. The great thing about Beck/Rex is that we aren't tied to either one of them. Same goes for most positions that need to be upgraded. The only veteran WR we are tied to is Moss. Our opening day starting OL wasn't elite but they were good enough. I don't think we have 5 INT from our entire secondary so that needs to be a focus as well.

The future is brighter than the present and a far cry from our past. Thoughts?[/quote]

I (genuinely) admire the optimism you have for this franchise in its current state! Optimism is a great attitude for life in general...I have it...but I can't for the franchise.

Every major decision Mike, or Mike and/or BA, or Mike and/or BA and/or Kyle, made has set this team further and further back. Why was switching to the 3-4 defense necessary for the future? Is your argument saying only 3-4 defenses are elite? I don't buy that. Regardless, the opportunity cost of blowing up the defense has proven enormous. This fact is corroberated every time someone on the board acknowledges our offense is terrible and terribly deficient of talent i.e. we spend the last two off-seasons spending more than half our picks/FAs on defense.

...and the bottom line is our defense still isn't as good as it was before the switch. I think there's a stong argument to be made we'd still be a better 4-3 defense, especially based on our front 7, because we still don't have the NT required to make the 3-4 dominant. Soooooo we can say Mike and/or whoever decided to force the system w/o the most important piece in place. We can also say it will still require at least a few more major investments in the defense to "finish" it so to speak. NT. FS. CB (maybe two). Prior to the switch we really just needed a FS and maybe another CB. So again I say we're still better suited in the 4-3 because it eliminates the need for a dominant NT, which will require a high draft pick (think BJ Raji or Suh) or a bigtime FA signing.

Next we can talk about Mike's decisions on QBs. I don't have the energy to keep going over it though lol. Bottom line he's utterly wasted two critical years through 4 terrible moves (Jason, McNabb, Rex, Beck). We don't have a QB of the future or a vet QB to help mentor the guy of the future (please don't mention Rex here). Meanwhile several of the QBs he passed on, both solid vets and draft picks, are doing far better than either goofball on our roster.

Finally, Mike and this coaching staff has lost the team. Last Sunday against a division rival was the only real show of emotion we've seen from more than a couple/few players in months. Shit, the winless Colts play with more passion, as do the Dolphins and Browns.

Add all that to the week to week stupidity in play-calling, roster decisions (like running Torain instead of Helu) and game and clock management. This just isn't a serious franchise. I don't think it's the players. It's the leadership.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862293]I (genuinely) admire the optimism you have for this franchise in its current state! Optimism is a great attitude for life in general...I have it...but I can't for the franchise.

Every major decision Mike, or Mike and/or BA, or Mike and/or BA and/or Kyle, made has set this team further and further back. Why was switching to the 3-4 defense necessary for the future? Is your argument saying only 3-4 defenses are elite? I don't buy that. Regardless, the opportunity cost of blowing up the defense has proven enormous. This fact is corroberated every time someone on the board acknowledges our offense is terrible and terribly deficient of talent i.e. we spend the last two off-seasons spending more than half our picks/FAs on defense.

...and the bottom line is our defense still isn't as good as it was before the switch. I think there's a stong argument to be made we'd still be a better 4-3 defense, especially based on our front 7, because we still don't have the NT required to make the 3-4 dominant. Soooooo we can say Mike and/or whoever decided to force the system w/o the most important piece in place. We can also say it will still require at least a few more major investments in the defense to "finish" it so to speak. NT. FS. CB (maybe two). Prior to the switch we really just needed a FS and maybe another CB. So again I say we're still better suited in the 4-3 because it eliminates the need for a dominant NT, which will require a high draft pick (think BJ Raji or Suh) or a bigtime FA signing.

Next we can talk about Mike's decisions on QBs. I don't have the energy to keep going over it though lol. Bottom line he's utterly wasted two critical years through 4 terrible moves (Jason, McNabb, Rex, Beck). We don't have a QB of the future or a vet QB to help mentor the guy of the future (please don't mention Rex here). Meanwhile several of the QBs he passed on, both solid vets and draft picks, are doing far better than either goofball on our roster.

Finally, Mike and this coaching staff has lost the team. Last Sunday against a division rival was the only real show of emotion we've seen from more than a couple/few players in months. Shit, the winless Colts play with more passion, as do the Dolphins and Browns.

Add all that to the week to week stupidity in play-calling, roster decisions (like running Torain instead of Helu) and game and clock management. This just isn't a serious franchise. I don't think it's the players. It's the leadership.[/quote]

couldnt agree more with everything said in this post except maybe that he's lost the team,I think thats very hard to determine unless your inside that locker room.Everything else you said is spot on.I know your sposed to let coaches have a 5 year plan but im ready to move on,Im afraid what moves this regime will make next to set us back another couple yrs in the QB situation because it is OBVIOUS they dont know how to judge qbs

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

I'm cautiously optimistic about the future. The QB(s) selected next year will largely make or break Shanny's tenure. I am absolutely sold thus far on the mgmt. of Allen & Shanny. Change must start at the top & they established a new direction early on & have continued to follow through w/prudent decisions. Only blemish to me is McNabb.

We aren't having a good time these days, but I still think this transition could've been much uglier. We look at this roster & how limited it is now, but think about all the youth that's been brought in the last 2 years. We were heading towards rebuilding regardless of who took over after Zorn.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=htownskinfan;862295]couldnt agree more with everything said in this post except maybe that he's lost the team,I think thats very hard to determine unless your inside that locker room.Everything else you said is spot on.I know your sposed to let coaches have a 5 year plan but im ready to move on,Im afraid what moves this regime will make next to set us back another couple yrs in the QB situation because it is OBVIOUS they dont know how to judge qbs[/quote]

You're right on the locker room htown I have no idea what it's like.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

I'm not in the locker room, but have talked to people who have talked to people that are. And the locker room is not at all lost. It's probably not quite at the "we'll do anything for anyone" days of Gibbs but it's not lost.

I did underestimate though how strongly the players feel about Rex vs. Beck. I thought it was just talk supporting the starting QB at the time (Grossman), but no the actual respect for Beck the QB is (deservedly, in my opinion) quite low inside the locker room

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SmootSmack;862302]I'm not in the locker room, but have talked to people who have talked to people that are. And the locker room is not at all lost.[B] It's probably not quite at the "we'll do anything for anyone" days of Gibbs but it's not lost.[/B]

I did underestimate though how strongly the players feel about Rex vs. Beck. I thought it was just talk supporting the starting QB at the time (Grossman), but no the actual respect for Beck the QB is (deservedly, in my opinion) quite low inside the locker room[/quote]

See that's where I get confused. Until the 2nd half of the '07 season (after Sean died) I don't remember Gibbs offense or s teams playing much inspired football. The defense mostly did but I thought it was Williams leadership? I think Gibbs could have taken the team to a new level in '08 but that's just me.

...could be wrong but my impression is the has-been coaches usually don't thrive in the game today. The extent to which Mike has regressed as a game-manager, talent evaluator, motivator and head-coach is unparalleled and nothing like Joe's 2nd tenure. I think if Joe had a better FO situation (aka no Vinny and lil Danny muddling around but a real GM) he could have made the franchise a contender.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862309]See that's where I get confused. Until the 2nd half of the '07 season (after Sean died) I don't remember Gibbs offense or s teams playing much inspired football. The defense mostly did but I thought it was Williams leadership? I think Gibbs could have taken the team to a new level in '08 but that's just me.

...could be wrong but my impression is the has-been coaches usually don't thrive in the game today. The extent to which Mike has regressed as a game-manager, talent evaluator, motivator and head-coach is unparalleled and nothing like Joe's 2nd tenure. I think if Joe had a better FO situation (aka no Vinny and lil Danny muddling around but a real GM) he could have made the franchise a contender.[/quote]

Quality of the players just might have something to do with it. Football is not played solely with the mind. Some guys that are not as physically gifted may look uninspired when they're actually playing their guts out. Maybe, just maybe Todd Collins knew how to QB better than Jason Campbell.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[QUOTE=SirClintonPortis;862313]Quality of the players just might have something to do with it. Football is not played solely with the mind. Some guys that are not as physically gifted may look uninspired when they're actually playing their guts out. [B]Maybe, just maybe Todd Collins knew how to QB better than Jason Campbell.[/[/B]QUOTE]

Word to this!!! After the '07 season I was really hoping Todd would be our starter for a cpl/few years in Saunders system (Saunders as OC), giving Jason an opportunity to sit and learn the system inside and out.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;862313]Quality of the players just might have something to do with it. Football is not played solely with the mind. [B]Some guys that are not as physically gifted may look uninspired when they're actually playing their guts out.[/B] Maybe, just maybe Todd Collins knew how to QB better than Jason Campbell.[/quote]

That's pretty much it.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

Nice write up. Definitly QB 1st round. I'm not as high on CB as some of you I'd say we need a FS before a CB. Whether we have a shut down Corner or not a really good FS will make up for that and help the Corners. None of our FS are any good, Landry and Doughty are SS's and should only be used in the box to stop the run. After that RT or OL, WR, then it's a toss up either a CB or more OL.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;862313]Quality of the players just might have something to do with it. Football is not played solely with the mind. Some guys that are not as physically gifted may look uninspired when they're actually playing their guts out. Maybe, just maybe Todd Collins knew how to QB better than Jason Campbell.[/quote]

You realize pointing to quality of players (particularly on offense) is possibly the biggest indictment against Mike? It goes directly back to the opportunity cost of unneccesarily blowing up the defense and therefor not focusing to revamp the (lagging) offense first and foremost.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

...and the defense is (still) far from being finished. Getting a dominant NT to make the 3-4 work isn't an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862339]...and the defense is (still) far from being finished. Getting a dominant NT to make the 3-4 work isn't an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote]

I think if everyone comes back healthy then we are set on DL. But we need quality back ups I'll admit that. Cofield has been better then I expected, getting Jenkins back next year will only cause problems for defenses along with Kerrigan and Orakpo.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SBXVII;862344]I think if everyone comes back healthy then we are set on DL. But we need quality back ups I'll admit that. Cofield has been better then I expected, getting Jenkins back next year will only cause problems for defenses along with Kerrigan and Orakpo.[/quote]

Cofield is ok at best. We're not gonna be anything like Green Bay, Baltimore, Pitt or Houstan (under Wade) w/o a dominant NT. Why make the massive investment to a 3-4 if not to become elite (coming from a top 10 4-3)?

...I still haven't seen a solid argument for Mike's two biggest decisions: defense and QB.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862345]Cofield is ok at best. We're not gonna be anything like Green Bay, Baltimore, Pitt or Houstan (under Wade) w/o a dominant NT. Why make the massive investment to a 3-4 if not to become elite (coming from a top 10 4-3)?

...I still haven't seen a solid argument for Mike's two biggest decisions: defense and QB.[/quote]
I don't like stats too much, but our performance on D is actually not that bad this season, at least in the stats.

We are giving up the 11th fewest points points per game at 20.5pts/G, which is actually slightly under the 21 points per game in 2009.

We are also giving up 17.6 1st downs a game this season. In 2009, we gave up 17.5 1st downs a game.

Our 3rd down percentage this season is 37%, which is lower than the defense's 40% 3rd down percentage in 2009.

So, some of our stats are back to levels similar to the 2009 levels.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862293]I (genuinely) admire the optimism you have for this franchise in its current state! Optimism is a great attitude for life in general...I have it...but I can't for the franchise.

[B]Every major decision Mike, or Mike and/or BA, or Mike and/or BA and/or Kyle, made has set this team further and further back. [/B] Why was switching to the 3-4 defense necessary for the future? Is your argument saying only 3-4 defenses are elite? I don't buy that. Regardless, the opportunity cost of blowing up the defense has proven enormous. This fact is corroberated every time someone on the board acknowledges our offense is terrible and terribly deficient of talent i.e. we spend the last two off-seasons spending more than half our picks/FAs on defense.

[B]...and the bottom line is our defense still isn't as good as it was before the switch. [/B] I think there's a stong argument to be made we'd still be a better 4-3 defense, especially based on our front 7, because we still don't have the NT required to make the 3-4 dominant. Soooooo we can say Mike and/or whoever decided to force the system w/o the most important piece in place. We can also say it will still require at least a few more major investments in the defense to "finish" it so to speak. NT. FS. CB (maybe two). Prior to the switch we really just needed a FS and maybe another CB. So again I say we're still better suited in the 4-3 because it eliminates the need for a dominant NT, which will require a high draft pick (think BJ Raji or Suh) or a bigtime FA signing.

Next we can talk about Mike's decisions on QBs. I don't have the energy to keep going over it though lol. Bottom line he's utterly wasted two critical years through 4 terrible moves [B](Jason, McNabb, Rex, Beck)[/B]. We don't have a QB of the future or a vet QB to help mentor the guy of the future (please don't mention Rex here). Meanwhile several of the QBs he passed on, both solid vets and draft picks, are doing far better than either goofball on our roster.

[B]Finally, Mike and this coaching staff has lost the team. Last Sunday against a division rival was the only real show of emotion we've seen from more than a couple/few players in months. Shit, the winless Colts play with more passion, as do the Dolphins and Browns. [/B]

Add all that to the week to week stupidity in play-calling, roster decisions (like running Torain instead of Helu) and game and clock management. This just isn't a serious franchise. I don't think it's the players. It's the leadership.[/quote]

Dear The Goat,

I think it is very narrow minded of you to say EVERYTHING Shanny has done has made the team worse. That is quite false.

1. Teams switch from 3-4 to 4-3 defenses all the time. It's just a philosophical preference. New coaching staffs that come in want to mold the team to the belief system they have. You mean to tell me the aging 4-3 defense we had two years ago was going to be the long term future of this team anyway? We were one of the oldest teams in the league. We were going to have to get a bunch of new pieces anyway, so your argument is not valid on this point.

2. Of course our defense is not as good, it takes time to put the players in place that you need. I'm sure Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Andre Carter, Renaldo Wynn, Jeremy Jarmon, HB Blades, Fred Smoot, Chris Horton and the rest would be LIGHT YEARS ahead of the unit we have today..... FALSE.

3. Part A. The Jason Campbell trade was not a bad move IMO. Jason had plenty of opportunity in several offenses in Washington and showed he could not get us to the next level. We traded him away FOR a pick, not giving up picks like we always used to. If a guy is not working in your system, do you just keep him for the sake of it? No. When we traded him we had no way of knowing exactly who we would or would not be able to get via FA. It's a risk, but you know that if you keep him you are not taking your team to the next level. If you go a different direction you at least have a chance.
Part B. This is the only thing I agree with you on. The McNabb trade was a debacle. However, teams take risks on FA players all the time. Some pan out and some done. If it pans out you look like a genius. If it doesn't, you look like... well, a goat. Just like Mike Smith looks like a genius if he converts that 4th and inches. He didn't so people criticize him. Hindsight is 20/20.
Part C & D. I've said it before and I will say it again. Rome wasn't built in a day. This team has faced years of inadequacies, deficiencies, and neglect in the hands of Cerrato. You can't fix everything at once. Shanny did not like any of the draft picks available and the FA's available either. It is asinine to say "Meanwhile several of the QBs he passed on, both solid vets and draft picks, are doing far better than either goofball on our roster." A good fit for another team does not mean it is a good fit for our system. You are comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison here. A most resounding FALSE. Yes Grossman and Beck are inept to say the least, they will not lead us to the playoffs, but in reality we weren't going to the playoffs anyway. We will get a 1st round talent at QB in this year's draft and you will have nothing more to complain about at that position. Well, maybe... I'm sure you'll think of something.

4. I don't mean to come off as sounding rude, but I find it interesting that you would know the mood of the locker room unless you were in it. It's a long season, we've had a lot of injuries, and when you lose 6 straight games I'm guessing it takes a toll on you. However, I don't think that means Shanny and Co. have lost the team. I just means we are down a lot of starters, we are struggling in all phases of the game, and time's aren't good. If he had lost the locker room, Haynesworth 2.0, 3.0, etc would be exploding from the locker room via the media. I don't see that discontent anywhere. Do you?

Respectfully submitted,
SkinzWin
Drinker of the Cautiously Optimistic Redskins Kool-aide

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

I also don't know that Rex was a terrible move.They didn't break the bank to get him

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SmootSmack;862363]I also don't know that Rex was a terrible move.They didn't break the bank to get him[/quote]

It was only terrible in that they thought of him as a starter.

Too bad Rexy doesn't have the skills to match his moxy. He'd be a heck of a QB.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

I'd like to see Rex back with us next season in a backup role.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;862370]I'd like to see Rex back with us next season in a backup role.[/quote]

I could see that happening. It's not like he's going to be in high demand elsewhere.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;862370]I'd like to see Rex back with us next season in a backup role.[/quote]

i dont care if Rex comes back, but I want 2 young QBs on the roster period. Not 1, 2

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

We all [I]know[/I] what's going to happen though... A rookie QB will be drafted, in all likelihood he'll struggle and have all the typical growing pains in his first year, and our record might still be on the wrong side of 8-8. Add to that a rebuild of the offensive line which also isn't going to be completely in sync.

Then we'll hear from The Crazies that Shanahan's 3-year new coach/rebuilding window has closed, and that he should be fired.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=Beemnseven;862383]We all [I]know[/I] what's going to happen though... A rookie QB will be drafted, in all likelihood he'll struggle and have all the typical growing pains in his first year, and our record might still be on the wrong side of 8-8. Add to that a rebuild of the offensive line which also isn't going to be completely in sync.

Then we'll hear from The Crazies that Shanahan's 3-year new coach/rebuilding window has closed, and that he should be fired.[/quote]So why is it a good idea to have him involved with the selecting of the right quarterback?

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;862360]I don't like stats too much, but our performance on D is actually not that bad this season, at least in the stats.

We are giving up the 11th fewest points points per game at 20.5pts/G, which is actually slightly under the 21 points per game in 2009.

We are also giving up 17.6 1st downs a game this season. In 2009, we gave up 17.5 1st downs a game.

Our 3rd down percentage this season is 37%, which is lower than the defense's 40% 3rd down percentage in 2009.

So, some of our stats are back to levels similar to the 2009 levels.[/quote]It's close, but I'd take the current defense over the 2009 defense. The fundamental problems are similar (can't get off the field), but the pass defense is unquestionably better now, and that makes the ability to limit points much more sustainable. It's a positive change that we don't totally crap the bed anymore when facing an NFC East opponent because you haven't made an adjustment since 1977.

Neither would qualify as a great defense, and neither was capable of carrying even an average offense to the playoffs. The offense still has to get better. I think The Goat's point about the opportunity cost of switching things up on defense is fair though I don't know if anything except a huge decline would have been achieved if we simply focused on nothing but offense.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SmootSmack;862363]I also don't know that Rex was a terrible move.They didn't break the bank to get him[/quote]

Rex is a nothing move...he's solves nothing short term or long term. But when he's the only legitimate guy there's reason to ask "wtf was going through your head Mike?"

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=GTripp0012;862389]It's close, but I'd take the current defense over the 2009 defense. The fundamental problems are similar (can't get off the field), but the pass defense is unquestionably better now, and that makes the ability to limit points much more sustainable. It's a positive change that we don't totally crap the bed anymore when facing an NFC East opponent because you haven't made an adjustment since 1977.

Neither would qualify as a great defense, and neither was capable of carrying even an average offense to the playoffs. The offense still has to get better. I think The Goat's point about the opportunity cost of switching things up on defense is fair though [B]I don't know if anything except a huge decline would have been achieved if we simply focused on nothing but offense.[/B][/quote]

I didn't mean to imply we would have completely neglected defense GTripp but I see how it read that way...I tend to skip over points when I try writing down my thoughts.

I think Rak would have been our LDE, Carter RDE and added a DT. Of course I've assuming AH is still contributing something because the offense is built around him (re-closing can of worms now). We could have spent, say, half the total number of picks/FAs on defense had we stayed in the 4-3 and likely be better than we are today because this defense isn't going to dominate w/o a real NT.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862390]Rex is a nothing move...he's solves nothing short term or long term. But when he's the only legitimate guy there's reason to ask "wtf was going through your head Mike?"[/quote]

Well it depends on how you look at it. QB is certainly our biggest need. And it's the most important position on any roster, in my opinion. But it's not the only position that we needed to improve upon.

So I mean yes I wish we had, for example, gotten Locker at #10 but he wasn't there so we could have traded up to ensure we get him. Or we could have said well let's go with the next best QB on our list. Or we could have done what we did and said "OK, we didn't get the QB we wanted. But we have a chance to get the LB, DT, and WR we need."

So maybe that's what they did. Maybe they said you know we like our best LB better than our second best QB so let's do that. Because next year and in future years we don't see LB (or DT or WR, etc) that we really would want. But we do see a QB. So we'll build other areas of our team in 2011 and then we'll get that QB in 2012.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

Draft a 1st round QB to start.
Get rid of Beck and Grossman.
Either draft a late round young QB to have 2 or
Look for another more accurate Vet QB.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SBXVII;862459]Draft a 1st round QB to start.
Get rid of Beck and Grossman.
Either draft a late round young QB to have 2 or
Look for another more accurate Vet QB.[/quote]

I think there's several vet QBs who are/will be upgrades over what we have...good idea.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=SmootSmack;862401]Well it depends on how you look at it. QB is certainly our biggest need. And it's the most important position on any roster, in my opinion. But it's not the only position that we needed to improve upon.

So I mean yes I wish we had, for example, gotten Locker at #10 but he wasn't there so we could have traded up to ensure we get him. Or we could have said well let's go with the next best QB on our list. Or we could have done what we did and said "OK, we didn't get the QB we wanted. But we have a chance to get the LB, DT, and WR we need."

So maybe that's what they did. Maybe they said you know we like our best LB better than our second best QB so let's do that. Because next year and in future years we don't see LB (or DT or WR, etc) that we really would want. But we do see a QB. So we'll build other areas of our team in 2011 and then we'll get that QB in 2012.[/quote]

Well said. And it should be noted, though it's way early -- the QB that Shanahan passed on, Blaine Gabbert, is looking awfully lost out there.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862395]I didn't mean to imply we would have completely neglected defense GTripp but I see how it read that way...I tend to skip over points when I try writing down my thoughts.

I think Rak would have been our LDE, Carter RDE and added a DT. Of course I've assuming AH is still contributing something because the offense is built around him (re-closing can of worms now). We could have spent, say, half the total number of picks/FAs on defense had we stayed in the 4-3 and likely be better than we are today because this defense isn't going to dominate w/o a real NT.[/quote]No, this is my bad. I implied, but did not write, that the reason I thought the Redskins defensed declined and then came back to 2009 ish talent levels is because the Redskins didn't add anything to it last year. Which is to say that 3-4/4-3 is a lot of window dressing, but the defense was going to get changed one way or another, and there wasn't exactly a coordinator out there similar to Greg Blache nor should we have hired him if there was.

But if you change your defensive identity and then don't add any talent to it and then you have a public spat with your highest profile player, you're destined to have a pretty disappointing year on defense. And I don't entirely believe Mike Shanahan or Jim Haslett should take the blame for the decline from 2009. We didn't have anything to build off of on that side of the ball beyond the years that Fletcher, Carter, and Orakpo had and the huge contracts to Hall and Haynesworth.

Anyway, it's moot now because Brian Orakpo is never going to be a three down defensive end in this league. He's a linebacker in any scheme on a rushing down, and then he puts his hand in the dirt on third down. Or we could keep playing what we are now, and keep getting the quarterback on the ground on early downs. I like that a lot better.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=The Goat;862463]I think there's several vet QBs who are/will be upgrades over what we have...good idea.[/quote]

Just curious, which veteran QB that were available this offseason or rookies (again that were available in 2010 or 2011) would have made a better long term decision than what we currently have. Please don't mistake this for me embracing Rex/Beck as anything more than a one season stopgap as both of their contracts are done at the end of the season so we have $0 invested at that position for 2012.

In answering that question, remember that if we drafted a QB at 10 we wouldn't have Kerrigan, Hankerson or Helu and would have had to give up 2012 picks to move up in the 2nd round for Dalton. One big failing IMO was not drafting a depth QB in the later rounds of either 2010 or 2011.

Not picking on you but the revisionist history of 'we should have done better' without citing specifics always strikes a nerve.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

One thing bothers me and that's Mike Shanahan's ego. He said before the preseason and during the NFL lockout that he was going to stake his reputation on John Beck. But Beck lost the QB competition in training camp/preseason to Rex Grossman. Grossman actually played well the first three weeks. But by the forth game, his play began to decline. After the bye week, Grossman was benched after tossing 4 picks against the Eagles defense. Then Beck takes over after Grossman is benched and plays worse in terms of how the position should be played. He checks it down to his halfback on 3rd and 20 instead of finding a WR open down field. Then Shanahan switches back to Grossman and Rex has actually played satisfactory the last two outings against the Dolphins and Cowboys.

Where am I going this this, you ask?

Mike Shanahan won't admit that he made a mistake going with Grossman and Beck atop the depth chart at the start of preseason. So, how does he draft a QB without admitting that he was wrong from the start? Until he does that, Mike Shanahan may still delude himself into thinking that Grossman may improve and Beck is the QB of the future.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

You guys are funny..

So Shanahan was suppose to come out in the first press conference this year and just say..

"Hey guys, look.. I understand we have two mediocre QB's on this football team, but I'm hoping for the best and that we can win a few games with talent around him untill we can draft our QB in 2012. Since we went for defense in this draft"

I'm sorry, but you guys act like he's suppose to come out and throw his team under the bus lol. He's the head coach, and would you want to play for a guy that basically would just say you suck or you're not good enough to play? What coach in the NFL actually says he's not confident in his team/players?

Of fcking course he would state his reputation on his QB's.. It's his freaking football team...Get a brain!!!!!! I'm so tired of reading half wit comments.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=Bucket;862599]You guys are funny..

So Shanahan was suppose to come out in the first press conference this year and just say..

"Hey guys, look.. I understand we have two mediocre QB's on this football team, but I'm hoping for the best and that we can win a few games with talent around him untill we can draft our QB in 2012. Since we went for defense in this draft"

I'm sorry, but you guys act like he's suppose to come out and throw his team under the bus lol. He's the head coach, and would you want to play for a guy that basically would just say you suck or you're not good enough to play? What coach in the NFL actually says he's not confident in his team/players?

Of fcking course he would state his reputation on his QB's.. It's his freaking football team...Get a brain!!!!!! I'm so tired of reading half wit comments.[/quote]

Well, if Shanahan knows whether he was wrong or not in thinking so highly of Beck, I guess he knows better now. Of course he's not going to admit that he was wrong. But with all of the pop warner level QB play this season, and the criticism that Shanahan, Beck, and Grossman has received, you would think that he would draft a QB in the 2012 draft.

You have 31 other head coaches in the NFL that would not have gone with either Beck or Grossman atop their teams depth charts. So Shanahan was either planning to lose this year in order to draft high the next off season because he knew the level of collegiate QBs was going to be there for him, or he's a moron who doesn't know quarterbacks.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;862602]Well, if Shanahan knows whether he was wrong or not in thinking so highly of Beck, I guess he knows better now. Of course he's not going to admit that he was wrong. But with all of the pop warner level QB play this season, and the criticism that Shanahan, Beck, and Grossman has received, you would think that he would draft a QB in the 2012 draft.

You have 31 other head coaches in the NFL that would not have gone with either Beck or Grossman atop their teams depth charts. So Shanahan was either planning to lose this year in order to draft high the next off season because he knew the level of collegiate QBs was going to be there for him, or he's a moron who doesn't know quarterbacks.[/quote]

Hate to be cliche but actions speak louder than words. The fact that neither are signed past this season or to significant money clearly indicates they weren't viewed as anything long term. You always want to win but smart planning says win as much as you can with what you have even if they are just here as a placeholder.

Re: Some optimism on the 'Shanaplan'
 

Some people put way too much stock into coach speak.