Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;873158]So square peg-round hole is good roster management or you'd advocate reshaping philosophy to suit two ill fitting players? Not trying to be a wiseass, just trying to grasp your issue with the roster management under Shanahan as it relates to players he cut that are on rosters elsewhere.[/quote]They let them go because they were deemed to be "inconsistent" players unworthy of long-term deals. Not bad performers within the scheme, inconsistent performers.

Well, whose fault was that? The players? Well, at the time you could have argued that, but then they went elsewhere and performed like deserving pro bowlers. Nothing remotely inconsistent in their game.

So the only people who were wrong were those who determined that they were inconsistent performers in the first place. Again, no one thought these players were bad here, but Carter couldn't consistently do what was asked of an edge player in the scheme (I'm amazed they didn't try him over the tackle at LDE with Lorenzo Alexander as the in-space edge guy, but that is their prerogative).

Carter was still our second best pass rusher last season, and Rogers was our best or second best cover corner (depending what you thought of Phil Buchanon). That's what they were in this scheme. In other roles, they were pro bowlers. But if you looked at this years defense and thought that it couldn't have used a cover guy or another pass rusher, well, then I don't agree.

Full disclosure: [U]I didn't disagree with the decision[/U] to get rid of either of them. But that is not an excuse for poor roster management. I just think it's masquerading as one. The bigger issue is that [B]when they were here[/B] in 2010, [B]the unit underperformed and they got blamed for it[/B]. Good teams don't pass the blame, but that's something that the Redskins have been doing on departed veterans since the Cerrato days.

To say the 2010 defense wasn't talented or didn't have the right pieces simply isn't accurate. What those two guys did in 2011 (as every down players) shows as much.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;873165]Also, are you suggesting that Shanahan "can't find a role for most [of the] players" on the current roster?? There are lots of gaps to fill, but, c'mon man that's just crazy talk.

You mean like we did with Carter and Rogers? Like we may do with Landry? (Honestly, I don't remember if we cut Carter or just didn't renew. Even if we cut him, his replacement was a definite upgrade in our scheme and, letting him go, let us keep a couple of younger developmental guys - Jackson and Marcus White).

Well, seeing as 35 players of the 2009 roster are no longer in the NFL, I would suggest a substantial amount of people more knowledgeable than Redskins fans would agree that the 2009 roster contained a lot of "useless" players. Also, with an 85% turnover, there are going to be lots of "he's crap, but at least he's my crap" moves (Maake comes to mind).[/quote]My apologies on a misrepresentation of your argument. I'm so confused by the many different defenses for Shanahan that my brain is combining them into arguments that no one is making. I apologize for making a straw man about a high percentage of the current roster being non-scheme fits. That's not really the problem that caused 6-10/5-11.

Carter was released prior to drafting Kerrigan, creating the obvious need for an edge rusher. Rogers hit free agency, but the scheme-fit argument about Rogers was disingenuous when Shanahan made it and it's disingenuous now. I know the Redskins want to be a zone coverage team and they viewed Rogers as an inconsistent zone player. But I've spent a lot of time grading Rogers as a corner since 2005; he's not a poor zone player. The problem, IMO, was positioning (on the slot) in the Haslett defense. And "inconsistent" when you have the corner who gave up more passing yards than any player in football on the other side of the field is a really suspect term anyway.

It's the same problem the Eagles had with Nnamdi Asomugha this year. They got it fixed by the last four games though. The Redskins have a strong tendency to project failures onto departed players, a tendency that pre-dates Mike Shanahan. It's nice on some level to see Redskins draft picks make pro bowls, no matter how little affiliation I have with them when they do it.

If we do it with Landry, the mistakes are the same. Look, I realize Landry is doing himself no favors with this charade of trying to avoid surgery. I get that the Redskins probably should be growing frustrated with him. If you continue to let good secondary players walk because they do dumb things that make you want to pull your hair out, and then act like "hey, we're letting Landry walk now, it's addition by subtraction!" Well, sure. Have fun. Did I mention that I will criticize the Redskins for mishandling the situation? Thought you should know.

If you want to send a message, slap him with the franchise tag and don't open up long term contract negotiations until he gets his act together. He's a player you need in the defense, let's not overlook that.

The 2009 roster did contain [B]a lo[/B]t of useless players without any trade value. It also happened to include many of the players who are the high quality performers on the current team. And I think there could have been at least a few more quality starters on the 2011 team if things had been managed better.

One thing the Redskins have done well is getting picks for players they don't want anymore. What they've struggled with is replacing the players they don't want anymore with players who 1) they do want, and 2) are actually capable.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873167]Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting[/quote]

Well at least we've moved on to players worth talking about.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873167]Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting[/quote]Are you asserting they did not?

Because their efforts to bring either of them back onto the 2011 team, well, failed.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;873172]Well at least we've moved on to players worth talking about.[/quote]Wait only veteran starters are worth talking about?

I suppose we could start discussing McNabb and Haynesworth. What are those two worth going forward?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;873173]Are you asserting they did not?

Because their efforts to bring either of them back onto the 2011 team, well, failed.[/quote]

Blamed is the not word I would use

**awaits 10 paragraph response**

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873175]Blamed is the not word I would use

**awaits 10 paragraph response**[/quote]Let's try "soured" then.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

So we're not going to talk about how it was Andre Carter who went to the Redskins front office initially and said "no hard feelings but I don't think where you guys are headed and what I'm looking for mesh anymore" or that basically the whole league "soured" on Carlos Rogers' initial contract demands

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873180]So we're not going to talk about how it was [B]Andre Carter who went to the Redskins front office initially and said "no hard feelings[/B] but I don't think where you guys are headed and what I'm looking for mesh anymore" or that basically the whole league "soured" on Carlos Rogers' initial contract demands[/quote]

It seems the Skins Mgmt stated that he requested the trade to find a team more in line with his abilities......AND they honored it because he's a great dude that worked hard...Super Smart....Always fighting his guts out...etc

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873180]So we're not going to talk about how it was Andre Carter who went to the Redskins front office initially and said "no hard feelings but I don't think where you guys are headed and what I'm looking for mesh anymore" or that basically the whole league "soured" on Carlos Rogers' initial contract demands[/quote]Do you or do you not feel like we could have used those two guys on this years team?

I think I'm guilty of misrepresenting my own points at times. I do not think the Redskins have failed under Mike Shanahan [B]because[/B] they granted Andre Carter his release instead of talking him into staying and making a fortune on his annual salary, and [B]because[/B] they decided they could replace Carlos Rogers through free agency. We have more or less replaced the contribution of those "pro bowlers" with a first round pick and a free agent signing at corner. The issue, of course, is the lack of steady (2009-2012), clear improvement. But I think those are high-profile lapses in judgement/talent evaluation brought to light by the combination of the Redskins not being good and those guys (justifiably) being elected to the pro-bowl.

I wanted to talk more about how the Redskins struggle to evaluate talent, but oddly, no one seems to wants to argue against that point. Of course, whenever I talk about other symptomatic mistakes the Redskins make more consistently that maybe don't get as much publicity...well, why don't you go back through the thread and I can save you six paragraphs.

In short: people dismiss minor symptomatic moves as trival mistakes that no one should care about, and then they come up with individual justifications for moves that received a lot of publicity and were obviously wrong (McNabb). Then, based on some creative justifications, they arrive at the conclusion that the Redskins don't have an issue evaluating talent. For someone like me who doesn't need to eat food because I can sustain myself on a diet of haterade, well, logic and reasoning are much easier without the delusion.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Hog1;873184]It seems the Skins Mgmt stated that he requested the trade to find a team more in line with his abilities......AND they honored it because he's a great dude that worked hard...Super Smart....Always fighting his guts out...etc[/quote]And, I mean, heck of a signing by the Patriots. It's too bad about his injury, it would have been fun to watch Andre Carter in the playoffs again.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Kinda' makes me hungry for.....BBQ

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;873185]Do you or do you not feel like we could have used those two guys on this years team?

I think I'm guilty of misrepresenting my own points at times. I do not think the Redskins have failed under Mike Shanahan [B]because[/B] they granted Andre Carter his release instead of talking him into staying and making a fortune on his annual salary, and [B]because[/B] they decided they could replace Carlos Rogers through free agency. We have more or less replaced the contribution of those "pro bowlers" with a first round pick and a free agent signing at corner. The issue, of course, is the lack of steady (2009-2012), clear improvement. But I think those are high-profile lapses in judgement/talent evaluation brought to light by the combination of the Redskins not being good and those guys (justifiably) being elected to the pro-bowl.

I wanted to talk more about how the Redskins struggle to evaluate talent, but oddly, no one seems to wants to argue against that point. Of course, whenever I talk about other symptomatic mistakes the Redskins make more consistently that maybe don't get as much publicity...well, why don't you go back through the thread and I can save you six paragraphs.

In short: people dismiss minor symptomatic moves as trival mistakes that no one should care about, and then they come up with individual justifications for moves that received a lot of publicity and were obviously wrong (McNabb). Then, based on some creative justifications, they arrive at the conclusion that the Redskins don't have an issue evaluating talent. For someone like me who doesn't need to eat food because I can sustain myself on a diet of haterade, well, logic and reasoning are much easier without the delusion.[/quote]

Rogers yes, Carter no

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

I think if Carter played all of Adam Carriker's snaps this year at the same position, plus played the edge in sub package pass rushing situations, I think he would have had a heck of a year for us. Then we would have been able to use an extra linebacker in the dime package for the interior rush and gotten even more pressure on quarterbacks in those long yardage. I think Carter absolutely would have helped, but they would have needed to come to an agreement on not trying to make him a 3-4 linebacker.

Then again, I'm not a proven defensive talent evaluator, so what the heck do I know?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;873174]Wait only veteran starters are worth talking about?

I suppose we could start discussing McNabb and Haynesworth. What are those two worth going forward?[/quote]

More so than dime a dozen roster fillers like Tryon and Williams, yes.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

yeah, carter and rogers would have been to have, but carter didn't fit, and i'm not sure he'd be a great 3-4 end with his size... he's one of those guys that loses body weight during the season from what i remember.

meanwhile, carriker wasn't wanted in STL and has been solid here. I really don't feel like responding about tryon or reinhart - they showed us nothing and tryon may not be in the league, and even if they are, there are about 1000 other guys that can do the same thing. they're NFL bodies, nothing special, and guys that generally aren't that important to your W/L record.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Gtripp, I've read a lot of the posts you've had since the season ended and I'm just not quite sure I follow your vendetta. You seem completely against anything and everything Shanahan has done from free agents, drafting, playing certain players, play calling, time management, personnel.

I personally just don't get it. I'm not saying you are wrong or your opinion is not backed up, but can you succinctly tell me why you are so anti-Shanahan when it comes to almost everything?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;873185]Do you or do you not feel like we could have used those two guys on this years team?

I think I'm guilty of misrepresenting my own points at times. I do not think the Redskins have failed under Mike Shanahan [B]because[/B] they granted Andre Carter his release instead of talking him into staying and making a fortune on his annual salary, and [B]because[/B] they decided they could replace Carlos Rogers through free agency. We have more or less replaced the contribution of those "pro bowlers" with a first round pick and a free agent signing at corner. The issue, of course, is the lack of steady (2009-2012), clear improvement. But I think those are high-profile lapses in judgement/talent evaluation brought to light by the combination of the Redskins not being good and those guys (justifiably) being elected to the pro-bowl.

[B]I wanted to talk more about how the Redskins struggle to evaluate talent, but oddly, no one seems to wants to argue against that point. Of course, whenever I talk about other symptomatic mistakes the Redskins make more consistently that maybe don't get as much publicity...well, why don't you go back through the thread and I can save you six paragraphs.

In short: people dismiss minor symptomatic moves as trival mistakes that no one should care about, and then they come up with individual justifications for moves that received a lot of publicity and were obviously wrong (McNabb). Then, based on some creative justifications, they arrive at the conclusion that the Redskins don't have an issue evaluating talent.[/B] For someone like me who doesn't need to eat food because I can sustain myself on a diet of haterade, well, logic and reasoning are much easier without the delusion.[/quote]
So were T. Williams, Riley, Paulson, Bowen, Carriker, Cofield, Gaffney, Hightower, Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Gomes and Royster examples of poor talent evaluation? Were the 52 players released and now out of the NFL examples of poor talent evaluation?

I guess I kinda feel like Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men.. Please tell me you have more than Rinehart, E. Williams and Justin Tryon.. Please tell me this is about more than Carter and Rogers.. We're talking about the future of our beloved franchise, please tell me you're basing your argument on something more than Stephon Heyer.. I'm going back to my base..

So again, for clarification, is the issue who is NOT here anymore or the fact that better players who replaced the 52 departed aren't better players. That I would agree is an issue but I'd offer that there's more at play than just 'poor' talent evaluation.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Hog1;873184]It seems the Skins Mgmt stated that he requested the trade to find a team more in line with his abilities......AND they honored it because he's a great dude that worked hard...Super Smart....Always fighting his guts out...etc[/quote]

Word. Pretty hard to find sh!t to complain about with AC...he's about as high-character as they come.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;873220]So were T. Williams, Riley, Paulson, Bowen, Carriker, Cofield, Gaffney, Hightower, Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Gomes and Royster examples of poor talent evaluation? Were the 52 players released and now out of the NFL examples of poor talent evaluation?

I guess I kinda feel like Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men.. Please tell me you have more than Rinehart, E. Williams and Justin Tryon.. Please tell me this is about more than Carter and Rogers.. We're talking about the future of our beloved franchise, please tell me you're basing your argument on something more than Stephon Heyer.. I'm going back to my base..

So again, for clarification, is the issue who is NOT here anymore or the fact that better players who replaced the 52 departed aren't better players. That I would agree is an issue but I'd offer that there's more at play than just 'poor' talent evaluation.[/quote]

Well...talent evaluation is rather critical in pro football. It's as much the story between Patriots vs Rams as it is Belichick vs Spags. Smart to brilliant talent evaluators tend to keep their jobs as long as they wish. Poor ones get canned within a couple years. So far, Mike has been a lousy talent-evaluator more often than not, and especially where it counts most in pro football...at quarterback. But he's the "safest" coach in pro football tonight.

And you cannot say "rebuild the defense in season 1" or why else McNabb? Why additions at WR? I just don't see the planning angle you do...

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Rogers left years ago. He was just still playing on the team. Short of paying him more than Nnamdi got payed he was leaving the skins and even than it was questionable.

AC was a scheme causality. Too small for 3-4 DE not good standing in space.

They are both good players just not for the skins.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Bushead;873219]Gtripp, I've read a lot of the posts you've had since the season ended and I'm just not quite sure I follow your vendetta. You seem completely against anything and everything Shanahan has done from free agents, drafting, playing certain players, play calling, time management, personnel.

I personally just don't get it. I'm not saying you are wrong or your opinion is not backed up, but can you succinctly tell me why you are so anti-Shanahan when it comes to almost everything?[/quote]There are people here that are convinced I cannot do anything succinctly.

In brief: I didn't think Shanahan was a good hire for where the Redskins were at the time, I wasn't enamored by his staff picks (particularly Kyle), he kept an incredibly high percentage of Zorn's roster in year one for most of the offseason (though perhaps not the right percentage), I didn't like the McNabb trade, I didn't like how poorly and largely uninspired the whole team performed in year one, I don't like how he treats some veteran players (McNabb in particular, but there are other examples) vs others, I didn't think that the direction of second offseason showed a great concept of where this team was at the time, I thought the whole Rex vs. Beck thing was stupid and easily avoidable, I don't like that he has managed to fall vastly short of my expectations as a manager of the game on the sideline, and I don't always like that when Shanahan opens up a window (via the dreaded media relations) into what he is thinking that he often seems to have little grasp of what is actually happening around him. None of that was a case of second guessing, it was all first guessing.

As to the reason why it seems like I hate everything so much, I think that's more a case of everyone else being irrationally hopeful that there is no way that this era could fail and doing anything and everything to justify mistakes made by this regime as some sort of process of suffering before we come out the other side as super bowl contenders. I would suggest that absent that sentiment that things WILL work out and the Redskins WILL have a quarterback tomorrow that is better than anyone we've ever had at the position before, well, then I'm just some dude with some opinions that are likely too bullish on the Redskins (with the right moves they can compete for the division next year!!!11!), and others that are too bearish and don't give enough credit where it is due.

So that would make me pretty much like anyone else here, except that my football paradigm doesn't lead me to the conclusion that things will be absolutely alright as long as Mike Shanahan is the coach here. My football paradigm doesn't lead me anywhere exactly. The evidence Shanahan has left does lead me to the conclusion that he will not succeed here, but that's not something I necessarily believed when he was hired.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;873220]So were T. Williams, Riley, Paulson, Bowen, Carriker, Cofield, Gaffney, Hightower, Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Gomes and Royster examples of poor talent evaluation? Were the 52 players released and now out of the NFL examples of poor talent evaluation?[/quote]Well, when Zorn left SOMEONE FORGOT TO LOCK THE BACK DOOR and Mike Williams and Casey Rabach got contract extensions as a result.

To answer your question, no. I mean, you shouldn't need more examples of poor talent evaluation than I have provided to believe there is a problem. Compile a list of names of the players who the Redskins have targeted and acquired in trades (McNabb, Brown, Hightower, and well, yes, Gaffney). Compile a list of names of the players who the Redskins have targeted and extended (M. Williams, Rabach, Moss, Montgomery, Alexander, Doughty) from their own roster. Now consider who the the [B]core players[/B] on this team are and have been and how many of those guys have actually been awarded contract extensions since Dec. 2009 vs who has been allowed to walk.

My assertion there would be that at least 20 other NFL teams, and probably 25, could match the names on your list just with moves dating back to March 2010. It's not something we should believe that Mike has brought an unprecedented amount of good football players into the organization. He had a strong draft in 2011. Some teams had a good draft in 2010. The Redskins weren't one of those teams. Neither the 2010 or the 2011 draft is going to define our personnel department the way the evidence I provided throughout this thread is going to.
[quote]I guess I kinda feel like Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men.. Please tell me you have more than Rinehart, E. Williams and Justin Tryon.. Please tell me this is about more than Carter and Rogers.. We're talking about the future of our beloved franchise, please tell me you're basing your argument on something more than Stephon Heyer.. I'm going back to my base..

So again, for clarification, is the issue who is NOT here anymore or the fact that better players who replaced the 52 departed aren't better players. That I would agree is an issue but I'd offer that there's more at play than just 'poor' talent evaluation.[/quote]I think the strength of my argument speaks for itself. I mean, if you boil it down in a way so that you're just looking at guys like Tryon, Rinehart, and Edwin Williams alone, well, then that point isn't strong. If you're just looking at Carter and Rogers alone, well, that point isn't strong. If you're just looking at McNabb, well, then that point doesn't mean much by itself. Actually that's lunacy, no one thinks highly of the McNabb trade.

If you actually realize that the struggles the Redskins have had to identify the players [B]within their own building[/B] that are worth keeping and building around vs the ones that are totally useless and out of the league the day they are handed their walking papers [U]has been completely unprecedented in the NFL[/U] these last two years, well, then that's not weak at all, it's very telling.

You could maybe, maybe argue that the Mike Holmgren Browns have been just as bad at evaluating talent as the Mike Shanahan Redskins. That team did let a lot of the talent that Rob Ryan brought into that organization walk for nothing. But I don't know if "we do it as well as those schlubs in Cleveland!" has quite the same ring as the fact that "we're finally getting our QB this year" whether or not it is true.

And Colt McCoy is a better quarterback than anyone that Mike Shanahan has brought to town to date, which would be the tiebreaker between the two organizations.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Mike Williams was a effin joke. A lot of fans liked that dude. Great guy, great story but, average player.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

GTripp0012 makes some great points and everybody else debating him make some good points too.I tend to lean on the side of Tripp.
As Ive said before,ask any Denver fan,ask any knowledgable football expert,they all agree on one thing,[B]great coach-TERRIBLE GM TALENT EVALUATOR[/B]From his terrible time management and mishandling of instant replay calls along with other factors I dont even consider him that good of a coach anymore

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long. But is he really terrible? Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

I believe Shanny and Allen are definitely getting this ship moving in the right direction. I think they wanted to try and compete the first year because of the "supposed" talent they had on the team and to see if they would respond to Shanny and really compete. Bringing Donovan in wasn't a bad move from the stand point of where Donovan has been, how he had played over his career, and what they thought he brought to the table as far as leadership and instant credit in the locker room. That experiment turned out to be a bad one.
But to take what he had in 2010, and reshape this roster with a GREAT draft and some pinpoint free agency additions, you have believe that this team will be competing for the division and NFC championship in the next two years. They are building young talent, some quality depth and looking at the draft from last season they really seem to be aquiring good depth.
The more I look at last years draft, the QB situation we have was probably the best we could have done. Shanny couldn't make any deals to move up to get the QB's he wanted. For whatever the reason he saw things in Blane Gabbert that he didn't want any part of. And by all early indications, he was right by not drafting him. It remains to be seen how much we are going to be willing to part with to move up to get Luck or RGIII. Personally, I wouldn't give up a ton because the draft will be stocked with a few good QB's again next year. Plus, there are quality QB's that I believe we can get later in the 1st or 2nd round this year.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873920]He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long. But is he really terrible?[B] Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.[/B][/quote]I compared his track record to other teams over the time period (1995-2008, because I could not find which year he received full draft autonomy from the Broncos) and this is very true for the positions of RB, WR, TE, G, and C. Shanahan likely outdrafted all of his competition in the late rounds at those positions. And we've seen glimpses of that ability here, with guys like Helu and Royster.

Defensively and in terms of finding quarterbacks though, the Broncos basically had no success beyond the first three rounds. Elvis Dumerville is probably "the" success story there, though he ranks behind Nate Wayne in AV.

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1995&year_max=2008&type=&round_min=4&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=den&pos=ALL&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all"]Shanahan in the 4th-7th[/URL], career with Denver.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]/looks around to find the person that said Shanahan can't draft.

Must be on a different board.

Anyway, if Shanahan had the ability to translate his drafts into on-field results, no one would think this.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]

Good read.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][URL="http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft"]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/URL]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]
Is it not amazing how many Arm Chair Coaches will lay that nonsense down....To Funny.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]

good read and opened my eyes a bit,Although I would like it to go back his whole tenure and not just 4 yrs.I have a good friend that lives in Denver who always complained about him as a GM and have seen several NFL experts say the same,maybe its just a myth thats been perpetuated thru the years and Ive fell victim to it.I need to see all the evidence,somebody do the research for me :)

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Isn't it interesting that when Shanahan drafts a lot of useful pieces and parts that go on to be successful elsewhere around the league, it is evidence that he is a good drafter. But when he cuts a lot of those young players and they go elsewhere to be starters, then it's a scheme issue, not that the coach can't evaluate his own roster.

Me thinks that is very, very interesting. It would seem that some people are being disingenuous about what they truly believe.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873920][B]He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long.[/B] But is he really terrible? Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.[/quote]

I have absolutely, or rather exactly, no idea what this means? Are you saying Mike was a lousy sideline manager (clock, timeouts, challenges, offensive tempo, scheme, and general leadership) over the last two seasons because he has so much experience?

Or are we still (trying) to debate whether Mike has any business whatsoever acting as a "co-general manager" and play a significant role in personnel?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

The latter

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=The Goat;874122]I have absolutely, or rather exactly, no idea what this means? Are you saying Mike was a lousy sideline manager (clock, timeouts, challenges, offensive tempo, scheme, and general leadership) over the last two seasons because he has so much experience?

Or are we still (trying) to debate whether Mike has any business whatsoever acting as a "co-general manager" and play a significant role in personnel?[/quote]

He's talking about his draft record.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]


I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874128]I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.[/quote]

Yep let's try and let the cake bake for once