Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;919657]In order for the offense to be more balanced in 2012 than it was in 2011, the Redskins have to improve in the running game. Last season, the Redskins were 25th in the NFL in rushing and 14th in passing. That's not balanced at all. If Helu Jr. and Royster can improve in the ground game, then there's a chance the Redskins can be a more balanced offensive team.[/quote]

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;920753]If the Redskins can run the ball 25-35 times a game and throw 30 attempts a game, then that would be well balanced. Shanahan is the type of head coach that would open up airing it out and go up by 14 or 17 points and then run the ball for the remainder of the game if the defense is shutting down the opposing offense.[/quote]Thanks for your thoughts above.

I have a couple focused questions for you:

Do you [I][U][COLOR="YellowGreen"][B]expect[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 offense to be more balanced? (i.e. run the ball more then last year)

Do you [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]want[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 Redskins to be more balanced?

Do you really think Kyle [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]wants[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] to run the ball more?

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[QUOTE=REDSKINS4ever;920789]Under Zorn the Redskins were a terrible team. How do you start off 6-2 in 2008 and finish 8-8? In 2009 Redskins were worse than Richie Pettibon's 1993 squad although both of those teams finished with a 4-12 record. Anyways, in the years since Gibbs left and Shanahan took over, the Redskins were a dismal looking team to watch. They were not an explosive team at all.[/QUOTE]

Zorn's first half success was likely due to:

1) He did run things differently than any other NFL coach. This was ultimately his downfall, but at first, opponents had to figure out what the heck he was trying to do on the field

2) At first, he brought motivation and fun to the team in practice and on gameday. Remember the "hip hip hoorays". The players in interviews admitted it was corny and had no idea why they were doing it, but they were having fun and believed in him...while they were winning. Once the losses started coming, the team thought he was not a serious coach and the kid-like "fun" was no longer cutting it...so he lost the locker room, especially a team leader in Portis.

I'll always remember him for chucking yoga balls at the QBs in practice, the slip-n-slide drills and the swinging gate. The best part was he called a time-out after showing the formation, came out of the timeout and still ran it! Since he was a lame duck coach who had already been stripped of his power and dignity, I really think that was just a big middle finger to the organization and Dan Snyder...on Primetime National TV!

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;922117]Zorn's first half success was likely due to:

1) He did run things differently than any other NFL coach. This was ultimately his downfall, but at first, opponents had to figure out what the heck he was trying to do on the field

2) At first, he brought motivation and fun to the team in practice and on gameday. Remember the "hip hip hoorays". The players in interviews admitted it was corny and had no idea why they were doing it, but they were having fun and believed in him...while they were winning. Once the losses started coming, the team thought he was not a serious coach and the kid-like "fun" was no longer cutting it...so he lost the locker room, especially a team leader in Portis.

I'll always remember him for chucking yoga balls at the QBs in practice, the slip-n-slide drills and the swinging gate. [B]The best part was he called a time-out after showing the formation, came out of the timeout and still ran it! Since he was a lame duck coach who had already been stripped of his power and dignity, I really think that was just a big middle finger to the organization and Dan Snyder...on Primetime National TV![/B][/quote]

I don't think he was smart enough for it to intentionally be a middle finger to the organization. And what does that do anyway? 'Ha! I screwed you by making myself look stupid. Take that!' I think that play only proves that he is 2 points higher than legally retarded.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

I don't think he was dumb enough to show his cards and run it after a timeout though. He's not a dumb man, he was a successful NFL QB, which takes a brain. He's also a very good QB coach...but as a HC was in over his head.

I excuse the marroon and yellow and black comment as him spending too much time in Seattle...that place is REALLY OUT THERE and I'm not talking just geographically. I work with someone from Seattle too.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;922127]I don't think he was dumb enough to show his cards and run it after a timeout though. He's not a dumb man, he was a successful NFL QB, which takes a brain. He's also a very good QB coach...but as a HC was in over his head.

I excuse the marroon and yellow and black comment as him spending too much time in Seattle...that place is REALLY OUT THERE and I'm not talking just geographically. I work with someone from Seattle too.[/quote]

What would he gain from showing the formation? I just don't see how that would 'shove it in the organization's face' so to speak.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=Monkeydad;922127][B]I don't think he was dumb enough to show his cards and run it after a timeout though. [/B] He's not a dumb man, he was a successful NFL QB, which takes a brain. He's also a very good QB coach...but as a HC was in over his head.

I excuse the marroon and yellow and black comment as him spending too much time in Seattle...that place is REALLY OUT THERE and I'm not talking just geographically. I work with someone from Seattle too.[/quote]

IMO yeah, he was (temporarily) dumb enough.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922115]Thanks for your thoughts above.

I have a couple focused questions for you:

Do you [I][U][COLOR="YellowGreen"][B]expect[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 offense to be more balanced? (i.e. run the ball more then last year)

Do you [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]want[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 Redskins to be more balanced?

Do you really think Kyle [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]wants[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] to run the ball more?[/quote]

The Redskins haven't had a 1,000 yard rusher since 2008. I do expect them to run the ball a lot once they have the lead. But I expect them to throw it when the are trying to establish a lead. The NFL is a pass happy league so look for the Redskins to throw the ball more than they run.

Yes, I do expect the 2012 Washington Redskins offense to be more balanced. But being balanced means mixing in a certain number of passes with a mixture of runs.

I expect Kyle Shanahan to want to call more pass plays. He didn't have the 4th best offense in Houston in 2009 by running the ball. He wants to establish the Washington offense as an explosive offense. With Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, and F. Davis to go along with a trimmed down Moss, I expect this season to be the Redskins most offensive explosion under Kyle Shanahan's direction yet.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922164]The Redskins haven't had a 1,000 yard rusher since 2008. I do expect them to run the ball a lot once they have the lead. But I expect them to throw it when the are trying to establish a lead. The NFL is a pass happy league so look for the Redskins to throw the ball more than they run.

Yes, I do expect the 2012 Washington Redskins offense to be more balanced. But being balanced means mixing in a certain number of passes with a mixture of runs.

I expect Kyle Shanahan to want to call more pass plays. He didn't have the 4th best offense in Houston in 2009 by running the ball. He wants to establish the Washington offense as an explosive offense. With Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, and F. Davis to go along with a trimmed down Moss, I expect this season to be the Redskins most offensive explosion under Kyle Shanahan's direction yet.[/quote]Based on your reply I'm gonna guess the answers to the questions (correct me if I'm wrong)

Do you [I][U][COLOR="YellowGreen"][B]expect[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 offense to be more balanced? (i.e. run the ball more then last year)
[COLOR="DarkRed"]No[/COLOR]

Do you [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]want[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] the 2012 Redskins to be more balanced?
[COLOR="darkred"]? No[/COLOR]

Do you really think Kyle [I][U][COLOR="yellowgreen"][B]wants[/B][/COLOR][/U][/I] to run the ball more?
[COLOR="darkred"]No[/COLOR]

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922164]The Redskins haven't had a 1,000 yard rusher since 2008. I do expect them to run the ball a lot once they have the lead. But I expect them to throw it when the are trying to establish a lead. The NFL is a pass happy league so look for the Redskins to throw the ball more than they run.

Yes, I do expect the 2012 Washington Redskins offense to be more balanced. But being balanced means mixing in a certain number of passes with a mixture of runs.

I expect Kyle Shanahan to want to call more pass plays. He didn't have the 4th best offense in Houston in 2009 by running the ball. He wants to establish the Washington offense as an explosive offense. With Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, and F. Davis to go along with a trimmed down Moss, I expect this season to be the Redskins most offensive explosion under Kyle Shanahan's direction yet.[/quote]

But how do you have a great passing attack? By having to keep the defense honest with a great running attach and using play action. We have seen Shanny make diamonds out of thin air when it comes to running backs. If we can stay healthy, IF, on the offensive line I think we will have a serious ground threat that will definitely help the passing game with our new competent QB and WR's.

So do I think we will run more? Yes. But it will be to help the passing game as well. Do I think Shanny Jr. wants to run more? No. He seems like a pass happy kind of dude. But we aren't Houston. We don't have Andre Johnson. Find the balance. Win the game.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;922263]...So do I think we will run more? Yes. But it will be to help the passing game as well. Do I think Shanny Jr. wants to run more? No. He seems like a pass happy kind of dude. But we aren't Houston. We don't have Andre Johnson. Find the balance. Win the game.[/quote]I'm hoping we run more also.
But like you said Kyle is a pass happy OC.
He'll have [I]more[/I] weapons in the passing game then ever before since he's been in DC. (Griff, Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, Paul)


If Kyle is a pass happy OC (like he's shown himself to be) then I'm not sure what would compel him to run the ball more.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;922263]But how do you have a great passing attack? By having to keep the defense honest with a great running attach and using play action. We have seen Shanny make diamonds out of thin air when it comes to running backs. If we can stay healthy, IF, on the offensive line I think we will have a serious ground threat that will definitely help the passing game with our new competent QB and WR's.

So do I think we will run more? Yes. But it will be to help the passing game as well. Do I think Shanny Jr. wants to run more? No. He seems like a pass happy kind of dude. But we aren't Houston. We don't have Andre Johnson. Find the balance. Win the game.[/quote]

The way Mike Shanahan and Kyle Shanahan calls plays, it's not far fetched to think that they will keep the defense honest by having RG3 do a lot of rollouts and bootlegs much like Gibbs used to have Joe Theismann and Jay Schroeder do. The Redskins have the wide receivers to not only go deep, but also to get open anywhere on the field. It's my opinion, but I can see Garcon emerging as a respected NFL WR in this offense. He, Hankerson, Moss, and Morgan will be the primary targets in the passing game all year. Figure Chris Cooley, Niles Paul, and Fred Davis into that passing game also. The running game will take care of itself. Both Helu and Royster are hungry for success after getting a taste of the NFL as rookies last season. Add Tim Hightower to that mix also. The Redskins are overdue for a 1,000 yard rusher. One of these three will be it.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922426]...The running game will take care of itself...[/quote]So you think Kyle will change his philosophy/play calling tendencies?
If so why?

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922421]I'm hoping we run more also.
But like you said Kyle is a pass happy OC.
He'll have [I]more[/I] weapons in the passing game then ever before since he's been in DC. (Griff, Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, Paul)


[B]If Kyle is a pass happy OC (like he's shown himself to be) then I'm not sure what would compell him to run the ball more.[/B][/quote]

I agree. This is especially true since he now has a strong-armed QB toy to play with.

I just can't see us running the ball more with Griffin than we did with Wrecks/Beck.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922421]I'm hoping we run more also.
But like you said Kyle is a pass happy OC.
He'll have [I]more[/I] weapons in the passing game then ever before since he's been in DC. (Griff, Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan, Paul)


If Kyle is a pass happy OC (like he's shown himself to be) then [B]I'm not sure what would compel him to run the ball more.[/B][/quote]

Answer: Shanny Sr. I think Big Mike Shanahan likes to run the ball in that ZBS of his. We have seen the fruits of his labor in the past. I think Shanny Sr. will have some say so over Jr. in the "we need to run the ball some more" department. I agree with the idea that bootlegs and rollouts may be a staple in the run attack to keep defenses honest but I think we can be a threat with just our running backs (provided the Oline can stay healthy). That is a big asterisk right there...

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922448]So you think Kyle will change his philosophy/play calling tendencies?
If so why?[/quote]

Namely because he has a new quarterback who is capable of making dynamic plays inside the pocket and on the run. Wouldn't that change the way that you call your offensive game plan?

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922491]Namely because he has a new quarterback who is capable of making dynamic plays inside the pocket and on the run. Wouldn't that change the way that you call your offensive game plan?[/quote]

Yes, it would make me change my game plan. I would call more pass plays than before and hand it off to a running back less.

Which, to go back to the title of the thread, would hardly be a return of the running game.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;922460]Answer: Shanny Sr. I think Big Mike Shanahan likes to run the ball in that ZBS of his. We have seen the fruits of his labor in the past. I think Shanny Sr. will have some say so over Jr. in the "we need to run the ball some more" department. I agree with the idea that bootlegs and rollouts may be a staple in the run attack to keep defenses honest but I think we can be a threat with just our running backs (provided the Oline can stay healthy). That is a big asterisk right there...[/quote]

I'm not sure if we will run more but I certainly do expect the run to be more effective because of RG3. All the the play action rollouts will keep the back side defenders in place since one of the fast guys will be the QB and all the roll outs can quickly turn into qb keepers.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

Kyle should take notes from the Vick-Dunn-Duckett years.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922491]Wouldn't that change the way that you call your offensive game plan?[/quote]We're not talking about some generalized or ambiguous "change".
We're talking specifically about whether or not the offense will/should become more [I]balanced[/I] in the playcalling philosophy.
If Kyle's philosophy/playcalling were to become more balanced he would need to run the ball [I][B]more[/B][/I].

So to answer your question directly: Certainly, having Griff as opposed to Rex/Beck would make change my offensive game plan.
But, having a dynamic QB, one of the best QB prospect in recent memory as opposed to Rex/Beck (near league worst QBs) wouldn't make me pass [I]less[/I].
It would make me maintain my pass first focus if not increase my pass first tendencies.

I have a direct question for you: Would having a QB who is capable of making dynamics plays in the passing game and running the ball cause you to pass less?

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;922460]Answer: Shanny Sr. I think Big Mike Shanahan likes to run the ball in that ZBS of his. We have seen the fruits of his labor in the past. I think Shanny Sr. will have some say so over Jr. in the "we need to run the ball some more" department....[/quote]Well we know Mike Shanahan likes to a balanced offense as evidenced by his career pass/run ratio which is almost exactly 50/50 pass/run. <--heck that ratio now is probably considered run heavy.

But, I don't think Mike dictates the philosophy or gameplan to Kyle or any of his previous OCs.
Surely, if Mike was the OC last year we would have run the ball more often and more effectively much sooner in the year and maintained it all through the season.
Kyle threw the ball [I]591[/I] times with [I][B]Rex/Beck[/B][/I] as his QBs, despite having a QB situation thatt warranted leaning on the running game if not at a minimum a more balanced attack.

[quote=Skinswin]I agree with the idea that bootlegs and rollouts may be a staple in the run attack to keep defenses honest but I think we can be a threat with just our running backs (provided the Oline can stay healthy). That is a big asterisk right there[/quote]Well the boot action (bootlegs, nakeds, 'rollouts') and the zone stretch run go hand-in-hand they're complementary plays.
The success of the stretch run is made possible because the boot-action limits the backside pursuit, which creates cutback lanes.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922543]We're not talking about some generalized or ambiguous "change".
We're talking specifically about whether or not the offense will/should become more [I]balanced[/I] in the playcalling philosophy.
If Kyle's philosophy/playcalling were to become more balanced he would need to run the ball [I][B]more[/B][/I].

So to answer your question directly: Certainly, having Griff as opposed to Rex/Beck would make change my offensive game plan.
But, having a dynamic QB, one of the best QB prospect in recent memory as opposed to Rex/Beck (near league worst QBs) wouldn't make me pass [I]less[/I].
It would make me maintain my pass first focus if not increase my pass first tendencies.

I have a direct question for you: Would having a QB who is capable of making dynamics plays in the passing game and running the ball cause you to pass less?[/quote]

They positive thing about Griffin is that he can be used in more than one way. He can pass the ball. He can also run for long gains as we know. I've even seen highlights of him catching the ball in Baylor's offense. Passing less depends on how much yardage you are gaining on offense with the running game or if the run is consistently effective.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922585]Passing less depends on how much yardage you are gaining on offense with the running game or if the run is consistently effective.[/quote]Well of course playcalling on a play by play basis is dependent upon a multitude of in game contingencies that lead to a decision.

But, offensive philosophy guides those in game decisions.
E.g. a run oriented team will have a healthy number of run plays on their playcall sheet for 3rd and short (less then 3 yards) vs. a pass oreinted team that might only have pass plays only on their 3rd and short playcall sheet.

Those types of philosophical playcalling differences are what guides the in game decisions and determine the style of offense and the playcaller tendencies.

So I ask again, hoping the courtesy of answering the direct question you asked me earlier will be returned....
[quote=30gut;922543]...Would having a QB who is capable of making dynamics plays in the passing game and running the ball cause you to pass less?[/quote]

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922597]Well of course playcalling on a play by play basis is dependent upon a multitude of in game contingencies that lead to a decision.

But, offensive philosophy guides those in game decisions.
[B]E.g. a run oriented team will have a healthy number of run plays on their playcall sheet for 3rd and short (less then 3 yards) vs. a pass oreinted team that might only have pass plays only on their 3rd and short playcall sheet.
[/B]
Those types of philosophical playcalling differences are what guides the in game decisions and determine the style of offense and the playcaller tendencies.

So I ask again, hoping the courtesy of answering the direct question you asked me earlier will be returned....[/quote]

If that is the only factor when considering a run oriented team, which it isn't, then no way in hell will we be run oriented. With RG3 its a pass play with giving him an option to run 80% of the time on 3rd and short. At least when there is more than a yard to be gained.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=30gut;922597]Well of course playcalling on a play by play basis is dependent upon a multitude of in game contingencies that lead to a decision.

But, offensive philosophy guides those in game decisions.
E.g. a run oriented team will have a healthy number of run plays on their playcall sheet for 3rd and short (less then 3 yards) vs. a pass oreinted team that might only have pass plays only on their 3rd and short playcall sheet.

Those types of philosophical playcalling differences are what guides the in game decisions and determine the style of offense and the playcaller tendencies.

So I ask again, hoping the courtesy of answering the direct question you asked me earlier will be returned....[/quote]

The answer to your question is: it depends on how the offense is moving the ball. If the defense can't stop the run then more and more run plays will be called by the coaches. Then of course the more this happens the less a offensive coordinator will select to pass the ball.

Re: A Return of the Running Game?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;922608]The answer to your question is: it depends on how the offense is moving the ball. If the defense can't stop the run then more and more run plays will be called by the coaches. Then of course the more this happens the less a offensive coordinator will select to pass the ball.[/quote]Actually, that is not an answer to my question.
And as I've already stated of course there are in game contigencies that effect the in game play to play calls.
But, that is not what I'm talking about in this thread and I think you are well aware of that.

I'm asking about playcalling philosophy or tendency.
And those are not determined solely by in game contingencies.
Teams that have an identity execute their philosophy, passing teams pass and running teams run.
A passing team isn't gonna end up with a balanced pass/run ratio at the end of the season because its not their identity, regardless of the contingencies.

E.g. You can look at the Packers who almost always play with a lead and therefore have ample opportunity to run the ball because of that lead, yet are still unbalanced towards the pass with a 60/40 pass/run ratio.

Or look at the Jaguars who trail often yet still maintain a balanced pass/run ratio at 50/50.

So I ask again, and I'll rephrase for clarity:

If you are creating an offensive gameplan for this season and like Kyle have already established yourself as a pass focused offenisve coordinator (even when you had subpar QBs).

Would adding [I][B]more[/B][/I] talent in the passing game (Griffin+Garcon+Morgan+Nile Paul) cause your offensive gameplans (which are made [I]prior[/I] to the actual game) to include more pass plays or less pass plays?