Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

I think Reed is the classic example of fan perception not lining up with reality.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Most of my points have already been addressed! Great B&G minds think alike!

If R. Grossman and R. Doughty are cut, then with addition by subtraction, all will be better. Neither are worthy of a roster spot.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Mattyk;925267]I think Reed is the classic example of fan perception not lining up with reality.[/quote]

I agree. If the coaches felt Reed didn't bring anything to the table, they wouldn't be wasting a roster spot on him.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Oh, I disagree. Doughty is very capable as a backup.

But he should be a backup only. Having him start would speak negative volumes about our talent/skill level at safety.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Undrafted rookie CB Chase Minnifield (knee) will reportedly open training camp on the active/PUP list.

Although Minnifield underwent microfracture surgery over the winter, this still comes as a bit of surprise in that the former Virginia star shined while participating fully in June minicamp. The Redskins are building in roster flexibility with the option to leave Minnifield on reserve/PUP for the first six games. RB Tristan Davis (undisclosed) is also expected to open camp on the PUP list.

[URL]https://twitter.com/ESPNRadio980/status/225353675579719681[/URL]

[URL="http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7526/chase-minnifield"]Chase Minnifield - Washington Redskins - 2012 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com[/URL]

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Chico23231;925266]Please tell me why the Shanny's go out and get least talented players to start over Reed? Reed is a backup at best. Another instance of stats lying to ya.[/quote]I wasn't aware anyone had been named or given the starting job.
Shanahan is all about competition and if Meriweather, Jackson or M.Williams prove to be better then I'm sure they'll start.
And my guess as Shanny's thinking behind bringing in those players is the [I][B]hope[/B][/I] that they can resurrect their careers and return to a level of play that might only exist in the past.
If Meriweather or Jackson could return to the players they were 2 and 3 years ago it would be sweet.
All, I'm saying is that I doubt it.

When you compare each player you would be lying if you said that last year any of them played better then Reed. (that's despite the fact that Reed had a bad year.

Personally, I think we should placed greater priority on addressing the safety position then we did.

But, short of that if all things are equal I want to see youth.

BTW-
football outsider/profootball focus go to great lengths to ensure the validity of their metrics

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=mooby;925276]I agree. If the coaches felt Reed didn't bring anything to the table, they wouldn't be wasting a roster spot on him.[/quote]Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.

[quote=Lotus;925278]Oh, I disagree. Doughty is very capable as a backup.

But he should be a backup only. Having him start would speak negative volumes about our talent/skill level at safety.[/quote]Reed has been a capable starting SS, just not well liked or appreciated by fans.
2011-11 starts
2010-9 starts
2009-7 starts

I would love it if we found a Safety or 2 that are better then Doughty.
Nothing would make me happier.
I just question whether the guys we brought in are them.
Its gonna be an interesting competition to watch.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925297]Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.[/quote]

Reed is okay but we need a FS that can cover like a corner.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925297]Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.

Reed has been a capable starting SS, just not well liked or appreciated by fans.
2011-11 starts
2010-9 starts
2009-7 starts

I would love it if we found a Safety or 2 that are better then Doughty.
Nothing would make me happier.
I just question whether the guys we brought in are them.
Its gonna be an interesting competition to watch.[/quote]

As far as Doughty's being a "capable" starter - I appreciate his attitude. I appreciate his grit. I appreciate his understanding of the defense. I appreciate his discipline. I appreciate his play recognition. What I don't appreciate is his speed, which seems to always leave him one step too late in arriving.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Lotus;925306]As far as Doughty's being a "capable" starter - I appreciate his attitude. I appreciate his grit. I appreciate his understanding of the defense. I appreciate his discipline. I appreciate his play recognition. What I don't appreciate is his speed, which seems to always leave him one step too late in arriving.[/quote]

Takes bad angles too. Reed and Rocky needed to take remedial geometry.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925295]I wasn't aware anyone had been named or given the starting job.
Shanahan is all about competition and if Meriweather, Jackson or M.Williams prove to be better then I'm sure they'll start.
And my guess as Shanny's thinking behind bringing in those players is the [I][B]hope[/B][/I] that they can resurrect their careers and return to a level of play that might only exist in the past.
If Meriweather or Jackson could return to the players they were 2 and 3 years ago it would be sweet.
All, I'm saying is that I doubt it.

When you compare each player you would be lying if you said that last year any of them played better then Reed. (that's despite the fact that Reed had a bad year.

Personally, I think we should placed greater priority on addressing the safety position then we did.

But, short of that if all things are equal I want to see youth.

BTW-
football outsider/profootball focus go to great lengths to ensure the validity of their metrics[/quote]

If Reed is starting over them this year, wow. Here we go again with bottom of the league safety play.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Chico23231;925320]If Reed is starting over them this year, wow. Here we go again with bottom of the league safety play.[/quote]huh?
So if Reed wins the job it means the Safety play is going to be bad?
But, if 1 of the worst 2 safeties in the NFL last year win the job the safety play is gonna be good?

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925327]huh?
[B]So if Reed wins the job it means the Safety play is going to be bad[/B]?
But, if 1 of the worst 2 safeties in the NFL last year win the job the safety play is gonna be good?[/quote]

An emphatic [B]YES[/B]

30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense? And not just Reed, Gomes too. I mean, Jackson and Merriweather are just as responsible as well. I know both the last year have struggled, and go back and read, I was not a fan of the initial Merriweather signing one bit. But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Jackson will play well and I think at this point at looking at players on paper he is the best we have.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote][QUOTE=30gut;925327]huh?
So if Reed wins the job it means the Safety play is going to be bad?
But, if 1 of the worst 2 safeties in the NFL last year win the job the safety play is gonna be good?[/quote][quote=Chico23231;925328]An emphatic [B]YES[/B][[/quote][/QUOTE]Your answer might be emphatic, but its far from logical.
And to be clear the Redskins did not have league worst safety play last year.
They were decent in pass defense 12th.

[quote]30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense?[/quote]Of course.
But, I'm not gonna start believing in ghosts to upgrade the safety play just because it makes me feel good.

Expecting Meriweather or Tanard Jackson based on last years actual on the field play is akin to pissing on my leg and telling me its raining.

[quote]But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out[/quote]I could name a long (and recent) list of ghosts that this FO has chased that haven't panned out.
But, suffice it to say that nothing about the recent play of either Meriweather or Jackson suggest that they'll be better then Reed much less return to the players they were 2-3 years ago.
I hope like heck they do, but if i was in the FO I certainly wouldn't be going in their direction.

Me thinks you're dislike of Reed Doughty clearly clouds your evaluation of him as a player.
And what is to stop Gomes form playing at a high level?
Gomes already plays as well or better then Meriweather or Jackson played last year and there always the possiblity of improvement with young players.

[quote]The Redskins cut O.J. Atogwe and saw LaRon Landry sign with the Jets in free agency, so they will have two new starting safeties next year, and not necessarily very good ones. Tanard Jackson finished third in our broken tackle count last year, but since he only played 10 games, his 16 broken tackles work out to a horrid 33.3 percent broken tackle rate. Jackson claims that he'll be better once he recovers from a shoulder injury, but that injury is the main reason Tampa Bay cut him. The current plan is to put Brandon Meriweather next to Jackson, but the Patriots were so sick of his freelancing that they cut him before last season, and the Bears were so sick of his freelancing that they benched him after four games. When Washington inevitably gets sick of him, they still have veteran Reed Doughty and youngster DeJon Gomes, who are both strong box safeties but struggle in coverage. They also added Madieu Williams, a seven-year veteran with the Bengals, Vikings, and 49ers. [/quote][url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2012/four-downs-nfc-east-0]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Four Downs: NFC East[/url]

[B]Reed Doughty comes in at 7th on the "Best DBs" list, with only 3 broken tackles with 75 tackles, a 3.8% rate. The surest DB, Jason Allen, comes in at a 0% rate with 0 broken with 55 tackles. The worst DB is Asante Samuel - 14 broken with 39 tackles......[/B]

...in 2010 according to Football Outsiders Doughty carried a 63% 'Success Rate' in all plays he was involved in - good enough to rank him 14th in the NFL amongst his SS peers. He has improved every year...

[B]Top 10 Run Defense Ratings for Safeties (2011)[/B]
[url=http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/19/2011s-best-performances-safeties/]2011's Best Performances: Safeties | ProFootballFocus.com[/url]

1. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+3.8)

2t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 10 at Cincinnati (+2.8)

2t. Ryan Mundy (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+2.8)

4. Thomas Decoud (ATL), Week 13 at Houston (+2.5)

[B][U]5t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 7 at Carolina (+2.4)[/U][/B]

5t. Tyvon Branch (OAK), Week 9 vs. Denver (+2.4)

5t. Quintin Mikell (SL), Week 15 vs. Cincinnati (+2.4)

8t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 16 at St Louis (+2.3)

8t. Kam Chancellor (SEA), Week 1 at San Francisco (+2.3)

[B][U]8t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 13 vs. New York Jets (+2.3)[/U][/B]

8t. Roman Harper (NO), Week 10 at Atlanta (+2.3)


[url]https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/06/three-years-of-tackling-efficiency-defensive-backs/[/url]

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Chico23231;925328]An emphatic [B]YES[/B]

30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense? And not just Reed, Gomes too. I mean, Jackson and Merriweather are just as responsible as well. I know both the last year have struggled, and go back and read, I was not a fan of the initial Merriweather signing one bit. But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out.[/quote]

READ THIS HOW IT IS WRITTEN, IN ALLLLLLLLL CAPS! You can have a good pass rush all day long, but if any QB can throw it up and KNOW damn good and well that no one back there is fast enough to get behind their WR to pick it or at least break it up, this year is gonna be like the Eagles Masssacre ALLLLLLLL over again.

The SS, FS and CB position scare the flying monkey shit out me this year. Remember '06? The only reason every team we played didn't score 40+ every game is because of the late, great SEAN FUGGIN TAYLOR(RIP).

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;925302]Reed is okay but we need a FS that can cover like a corner.[/quote]

Hopefully Cedric Griffin can fill that role. He has experience playing corner and he's slated to play safety this season.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925335]Your answer might be emphatic, but its far from logical.
And to be clear the Redskins did not have league worst safety play last year.
They were decent in pass defense 12th.

Of course.
But, I'm not gonna start believing in ghosts to upgrade the safety play just because it makes me feel good.

Expecting Meriweather or Tanard Jackson based on last years actual on the field play is akin to pissing on my leg and telling me its raining.

I could name a long (and recent) list of ghosts that this FO has chased that haven't panned out.
But, suffice it to say that nothing about the recent play of either Meriweather or Jackson suggest that they'll be better then Reed much less return to the players they were 2-3 years ago.
I hope like heck they do, but if i was in the FO I certainly wouldn't be going in their direction.

Me thinks you're dislike of Reed Doughty clearly clouds your evaluation of him as a player.
And what is to stop Gomes form playing at a high level?
Gomes already plays as well or better then Meriweather or Jackson played last year and there always the possiblity of improvement with young players.

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2012/four-downs-nfc-east-0]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Four Downs: NFC East[/url]

[B]Reed Doughty comes in at 7th on the "Best DBs" list, with only 3 broken tackles with 75 tackles, a 3.8% rate. The surest DB, Jason Allen, comes in at a 0% rate with 0 broken with 55 tackles. The worst DB is Asante Samuel - 14 broken with 39 tackles......[/B]

...in 2010 according to Football Outsiders Doughty carried a 63% 'Success Rate' in all plays he was involved in - good enough to rank him 14th in the NFL amongst his SS peers. He has improved every year...

[B]Top 10 Run Defense Ratings for Safeties (2011)[/B]
[url=http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/19/2011s-best-performances-safeties/]2011's Best Performances: Safeties | ProFootballFocus.com[/url]

1. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+3.8)

2t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 10 at Cincinnati (+2.8)

2t. Ryan Mundy (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+2.8)

4. Thomas Decoud (ATL), Week 13 at Houston (+2.5)

[B][U]5t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 7 at Carolina (+2.4)[/U][/B]

5t. Tyvon Branch (OAK), Week 9 vs. Denver (+2.4)

5t. Quintin Mikell (SL), Week 15 vs. Cincinnati (+2.4)

8t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 16 at St Louis (+2.3)

8t. Kam Chancellor (SEA), Week 1 at San Francisco (+2.3)

[B][U]8t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 13 vs. New York Jets (+2.3)[/U][/B]

8t. Roman Harper (NO), Week 10 at Atlanta (+2.3)


[url]https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/07/06/three-years-of-tackling-efficiency-defensive-backs/[/url][/quote]

Why are we bringing all these safeties, vets and rookies, to displace this great player? Why havent we signed Reed to a long term deal? Its just not logical, is it?

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Chico23231;925360]Why are we bringing all these safeties, vets and rookies, to displace this great player? Why havent we signed Reed to a long term deal? Its just not logical, is it?[/quote]C'mon Chico, don't do that crap bro, where have I ever said that Reed is a great player?

And if you want to play that game why was a 1st round pick safety with 2 "pro-bowls" cut by the team that drafted him signed by a team that ran a similar 2-deep scheme then benched and cut by that team?

Look it, and this is the last I'll say about it.
Reed is an average SS in the NFL.<-----not an opinion
Our safety position could stand an upgrade.
Based on how the safeties we signed performed last year(<----not an opinion they were BAD) I doubt they will provide that upgrade.
Your contention that the they will be better then Reed seems to based soley on your dislike for Reed and your desire to see improved safety play.
I guess the grass is always greener.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;925358]Hopefully Cedric Griffin can fill that role. He has experience playing corner and he's slated to play safety this season.[/quote]Cedric Griffin was a poor coverage corner that couldn't tackle.
I don't understand why people think he can play FS.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

reed's been great... for a 6th round pick. speed will always be an issue, and it'd be much better if he were a reserve imo.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Where is that video someone posted of Cedric Griffin getting beaten and burned by several WR's? I say that because the next time someone suggests putting him as our starting FS, I wanna put up that video to see if they have second thoughts about that

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

There's a difference between playing safety and corner. Has C. Griffin played safety much during his time in the NFL? He may be better suited to play safety than playing corner. I'm looking forward to the competition in the defensive backfield between Madieu Williams, Brandon Meriweather, Kevin Barnes, and Cedric Griffin.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;925382]There's a difference between playing safety and corner. Has C. Griffin played safety much during his time in the NFL? He may be better suited to play safety than playing corner. I'm looking forward to the competition in the defensive backfield between Madieu Williams, Brandon Meriweather, Kevin Barnes, and Cedric Griffin.[/quote]

Tanard Jackson, Jordan Bernstein and Chase Minnifield too.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=30gut;925362]Cedric Griffin was a poor coverage corner that couldn't tackle.
I don't understand why people think he can play FS.[/quote]

this.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;925382]There's a difference between playing safety and corner. Has C. Griffin played safety much during his time in the NFL? He may be better suited to play safety than playing corner. I'm looking forward to the competition in the defensive backfield between Madieu Williams, Brandon Meriweather, Kevin Barnes, and Cedric Griffin.[/quote]

I really don't think it matters who starts at the safety positions. We simply don't have good players back there. Morris had a lot of work to do with this patch work unit.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Spare the Reed...Spoil the other team's offense

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=skinsfan69;925420]I really don't think it matters who starts at the safety positions. We simply don't have good players back there. Morris had a lot of work to do with this patch work unit.[/quote]

I am a little bit concerned about the talent level at safety too. But Tanard Jackson is a good safety. Although Meriweather has been unpredictable at times during his career, we have to keep in mind that he is a two time all pro and is capable of playing solidly. Madieu Williams I'm not too sure about. Cedric Griffin has played CB all of his career and will be playing safety for the first time. Usually when a corner converts into a safety, it's for the better.We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

TC starts today! Woot! Woot!

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Lotus;926415]TC starts today! Woot! Woot![/quote]

It only "starts" today. Practices don't really start until tomorrow if I'm not mistaken...

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=mbedner3420;926418]It only "starts" today. Practices don't really start until tomorrow if I'm not mistaken...[/quote]

Right...well that's what Lotus said anyway. That it starts today

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=SmootSmack;926420]Right...well that's what Lotus said anyway. That it starts today[/quote]

True, but to me, training camp involves practices. So, tomorrow is what I mark as the official day of TC. It's all semantics really...

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Yes, practice does not begin until tomorrow. But people are in the building beginning for-real prep for the season. To me, the offseason is over and season has begun. Heck yeah!

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Lotus;926431]Yes, practice does not begin until tomorrow. But people are in the building beginning for-real prep for the season. To me, the offseason is over and season has begun. Heck yeah![/quote]

Exactly. We made it through the last week with no major incidents involving Skins players, and now everyone is back into the season mindset as opposed to vacation/offseason mindset. This is a good day! :)

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

Time to get back to work. Hard to believe it's time for TC already.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=Mattyk;926446]Time to get back to work. Hard to believe it's time for TC already.[/quote]

Just an FYI I don't plan to report to Warpath TC this year. Don't really see the need. I'll see you in August

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=SmootSmack;926447]Just an FYI I don't plan to report to Warpath TC this year. Don't really see the need. I'll see you in August[/quote]

It's attitudes like these that lead to sporadic quick reply outages.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

As usual, SS thinking of himself before the Warpath. F'ing prima donna. Man posts a lot but contributes next to nothing content wise. All his "insider" stuff is warmed over Schefter reposts. Dude's been coasting on rep for the last couple years. Bench him and give the spot to an up and comer.

Maybe he can be traded to Hog's Haven while he still has some value.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;926457]As usual, SS thinking of himself before the Warpath. F'ing prima donna. Man posts a lot but contributes next to nothing content wise. All his "insider" stuff is warmed over Schefter reposts. Dude's been coasting on rep for the last couple years. Bench him and give the spot to an up and comer.

Maybe he can be traded to Hog's Haven while he still has some value.[/quote]

Already talking with them and others. It's about respect, feeding my family, etc.

Re: 2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion
 

[quote=SmootSmack;926447]Just an FYI I don't plan to report to Warpath TC this year. Don't really see the need. I'll see you in August[/quote]

Matty, I'll gladly drive down to TC and take over this vacant moderator position since SS just resigned.

I'll set Schefter's Twitter feed as my home page and I'll be ready to pick up where he's leaving off.