The Core Group
 

Hello guys,

Whenever asked about free agency and this off season, Joe reminds us time and time again that he is most concerned with maintaining his core group of guys. Whenever I have heard him respond in this way, I always wondered, who does he mean?

I think that there is a direct correlation between his core group philosophy and the gentleman that are actively trying to re-structure their contracts for the team. The team must view these individuals as keepers as I assume that by restructuring we are extending our deals with them.

So have a close look at the guys that re-structure, they are our core.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

Monk,

As I said in an earlier post, I agree Coles can't have his cake and eat it too. If he demands a trade/release, he ought to give back some of his signing bonus. If he would like to leave, but won't hold out if he isn't traded or cut, then I don't have any beef with him.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]
I'd only criticize Coles if he started bitching to the press, held out, or demanded a trade/release while simultaneously holding onto all of his signing bonus.[/QUOTE]

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

Im a different monk, so forgive my interruption. But I would hate not to get anything for him. I think trading him is the only realistic option for us. Your thoughts?

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

JWSleep:

Damn! If you narrow down the suspects to people at Redskin Park who may have been pissed as something Danny Boy did or said, you have probably included every hominid there - except his butt-boy, Vinny.


Monksdown:

Danny Boy paid $800M for the team and the stadium. However, he has not endeared himself to very many people inside the organization or in the league since then; other owners tolerate him because he makes a ton of money and that adds value to their franchises, but he isn't "best buds" with any of them. And, he treats players wonderfully just as they are signed, but after that... Even $800M does not allow you to be an arrogant tyrant with your organization - unless you want people to jump ship of course.


NCSkinfan:

The team does NOT lose every time there is a team/player conflict. Now when the team has overpaid for a player and given them a signing bonus that is nowhere near justified, then the team always loses. But the Eagles did not lose when they let Trotter go; they still won the Division and went ot the NFC championship game for both years that Trotter was gone. Then they resigned Trotter to a contract that was not only less than what he was asking for, it was less than half of what he had been making in Philly before he left town. So, how did they lose out there? The Skins lost out because they paid Trotter far more than he was worth then or is worth now or will ever be worth. And who did that???


Longtimefan:

In addition to the fact that the way we got Portis here was by his griping about his contract situation in Denver, please recall that Portis has already done a bit of griping about Joe Gibbs in his single year here. So, it is not impossible that Portis may be "disgruntled" sometime next season and asking out. Will that change his status here from a "warrior" to a "punk"?


Matty:

I don't think Coles relishes the amount of blocking he has to do on running plays in this offense. Yes he caught a bunch of balls in the last coupla years, but in the OBC offense, he was running a pattern when he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him. Now he's blocking down - sometimes on a linebacker - and I think he prefers the other kind of offense. I am NOT questioning his courage here. I'm saying he has a preference and blocking a guy who weighs about 80 pounds more than he does is not his preference.


monk81:

I think that the Skins threw deep on the Vikings because the Vikings defense was so vulnerable. I doubt that was due to some epiphany on the part of the offensive playcallers.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]
monk81:

I think that the Skins threw deep on the Vikings because the Vikings defense was so vulnerable. I doubt that was due to some epiphany on the part of the offensive playcallers.[/QUOTE]


But Sportscurmudgeon.........there were other teams whose defense was vunerable and Gibbs DIDN'T throw deep.........we lost some close games, we might've won if we threw the ball down the field. ..remember,
people complained about how predictible the plays were..........players on other teams laughed about it........It wasn't just about the lousy Viking defense,in the last game the plays were diversified, Gibbs opened it up!...........

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Wow! I can't believe how quickly people have turned against Smoot, Pierce, Samuels, and Coles. All those guys were praised and loved by so many 'Skins fans.

Can anyone honestly blame Coles for feeling frustrated? He's played his ass off for a team that has won 11 of 32 games since he's been here, he was totally misused last season as a possession reciever, and the wide receiving corps was a patsy for our troubles in 2004. I don't blame him for wanting to move on.

As for Pierce and Smoot, can anyone honestly say they wouldn't try to get the most money they could. If you had the opportunity to earn several million dollars more by playing for another team, wouldn't you try to hit free agency? Neither of these guys are from D.C., they don't have any previous connection to the team, and they know they're about to hit the lottery. I can't say that we should be pissed at them for wanting to get the most money they can. Any player (or person) who says he doesn't care about money is crazy or a liar.[/QUOTE]

Honestly if I were one of these guys I wouldnt give a damn how much money I made, as long as I was making a living playing football. The one job in the world that to this day I still wish that I could have. My attention would be on winning games as opposed to how many more millions I can get in a year, or how many catches, or how many yards. But I am not one of these players nor will I ever be.
I would say that those overpayed palyers should take some time out to think about the people who don't make as much money. Or even contemplate how much other people will (no matter how bad the team is)give almost anything just to be given the opportunity to play the game professionally. But, that is probly too much to ask. They have already walked in our shoes once and they are not comming back. Greed has taken over, and the team that gave you your first shot at the pros isnt good enough anymore. You have proved your worth, and you are going to get yours no matter what.
The one thing that I am gratefuly for is that our United States Service Men and Women do not often trade teams as often just because someone is flashing dollar signs in there faces. I am also glad tht they do not have greedy agents.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I can understand Coles' frustrations, but I really don't understand his decision making in this situation.

He's well paid, he's caught over 170 passes in his two seasons here, and he would stand to receive just as much work next season if not more especially with the departure of Gardner. Dude caught 90 balls this year, don't tell me he doesn't get enough work. And if anyone thinks for a second we're going to see the same offense again next year you're seriously smoking something. Gibbs knows the offense was what held the team back this year, do you really think he's not going to make any changes?

Back on Coles, like I said before, what happens when he goes somewhere else and gets frustrated? Will he look to back out of another deal with someone else?[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I'm saying...

I mean catching 90 balls and you're unhappy with the offense? I said this in another post and I'll say it again.

Can your feet just not cut it anymore Coles?!?

I mean 90 freakin' catches!! Not to mention the couple dozen or so thrown to him by limp-wristed bitch-ass Mark Brunell. If he's not happy with that type of "look" his way during a game, how the hell else is he going to be happy??

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=angryssg]Honestly if I were one of these guys I wouldnt give a damn how much money I made, as long as I was making a living playing football. The one job in the world that to this day I still wish that I could have. My attention would be on winning games as opposed to how many more millions I can get in a year, or how many catches, or how many yards. But I am not one of these players nor will I ever be.
I would say that those overpayed palyers should take some time out to think about the people who don't make as much money. Or even contemplate how much other people will (no matter how bad the team is)give almost anything just to be given the opportunity to play the game professionally. But, that is probly too much to ask. They have already walked in our shoes once and they are not comming back. Greed has taken over, and the team that gave you your first shot at the pros isnt good enough anymore. You have proved your worth, and you are going to get yours no matter what.
The one thing that I am gratefuly for is that our United States Service Men and Women do not often trade teams as often just because someone is flashing dollar signs in there faces. I am also glad tht they do not have greedy agents.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that. A few million more?! I mean people are SUPPOSED to be in this game for the love of it. I mean I would at LEAST hope that the love would at LEAST be 51% of the drive of a pro-athlete. If the desire for money outweighs the love of the game, then I don't see why there is any passion left in sports.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

A lot of people in careers outside of sports are in it because they love it, yet they still try to maximize their worth monetarily when the opportunity arises

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

I feel that when you're maximizing your worth at the expense of your word THAT is when the scales are tipped in favor of playing for money and not for the love of the game.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=smootsmack]A lot of people in careers outside of sports are in it because they love it, yet they still try to maximize their worth monetarily when the opportunity arises[/QUOTE]

And that is why the Japaneese are better businessmen than we are. Loyalty to the company as opposed to loyalty to self and money.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

I'm of the opinion this guy should be made to play out the contract he signed two years ago and cry the blues all he wants when he's finished. Either he play out the cantract' or he shouldn't be allowed to play for anyone else.Personally I would not want the guy playing for me because what guarantee do I have that in two years he's not satisfied with the way I run my offense and decides he wants to cut a simular tune?

There's far too much of this kind of attitude in professional sports anymore and it should not be allowed, though I don't know what you do to stop it espically when a player can pull this kind of act and there's some other team just waiting to give him an opportunity to do the same thing to them.

I've been a fan of Pro-Football since 1948 and I have never seen the likes of many of the things that are allowed to go on in the game today. In the day when football was "Football" Mr. Coles would play for the Redskins or he "would not" play for anyone. Back to the day is the only way to rid the league of this type nonsense, because I would be afraid to think of what would happen to a team with 53 Mr. Coles on it. When you don't like the way things are going, hold the team hostage by making unreasonable demands. I would not even consider trading Mr. Coles, or allowing him out of his contract even if it cost me money. Because if you do this you open the door for a lot of other little Coles to do the same thing in the future. There's much too much of this kind of thing going on in the league now days anyway, and I just think someone should take a stand and say enough is enough.

Good Luck Skins!! Things will look up in 05

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

damn, a fan since 1948! You aren't kidding when you say longtimefan

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]I'm of the opinion this guy should be made to play out the contract he signed two years ago and cry the blues all he wants when he's finished. Either he play out the cantract' or he shouldn't be allowed to play for anyone else.Personally I would not want the guy playing for me because what guarantee do I have that in two years he's not satisfied with the way I run my offense and decides he wants to cut a simular tune?

There's far too much of this kind of attitude in professional sports anymore and it should not be allowed, though I don't know what you do to stop it espically when a player can pull this kind of act and there's some other team just waiting to give him an opportunity to do the same thing to them.

I've been a fan of Pro-Football since 1948 and I have never seen the likes of many of the things that are allowed to go on in the game today. In the day when football was "Football" Mr. Coles would play for the Redskins or he "would not" play for anyone. Back to the day is the only way to rid the league of this type nonsense, because I would be afraid to think of what would happen to a team with 53 Mr. Coles on it. When you don't like the way things are going, hold the team hostage by making unreasonable demands. I would not even consider trading Mr. Coles, or allowing him out of his contract even if it cost me money. Because if you do this you open the door for a lot of other little Coles to do the same thing in the future. There's much too much of this kind of thing going on in the league now days anyway, and I just think someone should take a stand and say enough is enough.

Good Luck Skins!! Things will look up in 05[/QUOTE]

I love it when veteran fans tell there war stories. I agree with him. Screw the whiny little sissy Coles get some real men who want to play.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

In all fairness angryssg, loyalty to one's football team isn't the same as loyalty to one's country.

And, while it's easy for us to say we'd all pay for nothing, or even pay to wear a 'Skins' uniform, it's probably a whole different story once you are a professional athlete. I don't believe that greed is something new to people - it's been around as long as people have been around.

Coles will be playing football whether he's a Redskin, Jet, Giant, Cowboy, etc. So, don't you think it's simply realistic for him to want to play for a team where he gets to play to his abilities?

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

BTW, angryssg, do you know a Col. Bruce Haverty? He was stationed at Ft. Gordon before he shipped out in support of Iraqi Freedom.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]BTW, angryssg, do you know a Col. Bruce Haverty? He was stationed at Ft. Gordon before he shipped out in support of Iraqi Freedom.[/QUOTE]

No, sorry I don't. I've only been here since OCT. I was overseas prior.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

This is somewhat off topic, one thing I thought was odd is football is so often compared to war and the players are seen as soliders. A soldier called a radio station I was listening to, and I've since forgotten the topic, but what stuck with me is how he compared all the people in his squadron, or whatever the small ones are called to players on a football team. I found it somewhat ironic.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

BTW, squadrons are usually (some special forces have squadrons) either aircraft/helicopter units or armored forces. Soldiers/marines are grouped into teams, squads, platoons, etc.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

yeah - I always get the terminology mixed up.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

You touched on a very interesting topic when you say Mr. Coles will be playing for someone, Jets, Cowboys, ect. That's the problem, he in all likelehood will be playing with someone else, and I blame that someone else for giving him that opportunity when he's failed to uphold the last obligation he signed on to do.

When "Football was Football" as opposed to this money making circus that,s going on today, he would not play for anyone else because no one else would touch him. That,s the advantage players have today, the can mess over a team and move on elsewhere and get another opporyunity to do the same thing to that team.

Unfortunately, we dont share that same luxary in the real world.

Te Redskins will be fine with, or without Mr. Coles.

Hail Skins!! It's "UP" in 05

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[quote=ramseyfan]Second, as you correctly point out, Coles was given a large signing bonus as security. But now, the team apparently wants back the signing bonus (or a portion thereof). I don't think on the one hand you can honestly say that he accepted the CBA and should be held to it, but he should ALSO give back the signing bonus (if you in fact believe that).[/quote]

He wants to void the contract, they have no obligation to void it, so adding such conditions seems perfectly valid. He's held to the CBA, and under that agreement he cant quit his job AND keep collecting paychecks, or else everyone would do that.

about the spurs comments - they gave up money, but THEY WIN GAMES... A LOT OF THEM. The patriot have also had good luck paying players below performance due to their record.

part of the problem is that LC's injury slowed him down some, and he's still being paid as if he were 100%. The other problem is that gibbs has used lots of short passing routes and likes letting his WRs block.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]He wants to void the contract, they have no obligation to void it, so adding such conditions seems perfectly valid. He's held to the CBA, and under that agreement he cant quit his job AND keep collecting paychecks, or else everyone would do that.

about the spurs comments - they gave up money, but THEY WIN GAMES... A LOT OF THEM. The patriot have also had good luck paying players below performance due to their record.

part of the problem is that LC's injury slowed him down some, and he's still being paid as if he were 100%. The other problem is that gibbs has used lots of short passing routes and likes letting his WRs block.[/QUOTE]

Is Gibbs being stubborn about sticking with a west coast type offense and short passes......with some offensive line help...center, guard and a healthy Jansen, I don't see why he couldn't open it up a bit...........maybe a compromise on our offensive scheme would help this situation.

Neat article in our paper here comparing the Spurs/Patriots....both go after lesser known names, hard workers and role players which convert into team chemistry...both are successful.......both front offices have talked to each other how they go about having such success.

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

Gibbs' "awfense" as I've decided to start calling it. Isn't west coast. West coast throws a lot more passes, but they do so with the intention to let receivers make yards after the catch. I feel Steve Young got a lot more yards credited to his name then he may have deserved because his WRs did all the work! Gibbs handcuffs his receivers with the routes they run - I'm not against a short passing game, but give the receivers a CHANCE to make a big play! Also - can we please stop throwing it short of the 1st down marker on 3rd down please!

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[quote]3rd and 10 and brunell misses a 4 yard dump off[/quote]
bad memories...

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

Did anyone read what Mark Maske had to say about how the Redskins should deal with Mr. Coles? "On Line from the Combine in Indy" I'm going to say this and it's my last post about Mr, Coles.

I think the Redskins should wait this guy out because he is not going to sit out the season. He's still under Contract, and he should be made to play out his obligation. The Redskins have no real obligation to trade a player already under contract just to satisfy the player. Suppose the other 52 players assumed that same attitude (espically when the tean will take a serious cap hit as a result) The only reason why players make these bold moves is because they are convinced they will be obliged, and that they will sign on with another team elsewhere.

That's why I think the Redskins should play Hard-Ball with this guy (because that's what he's doing with them) and thereby send a message that this type trend will not be acceptable.

Good Luck in 05

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

Unfortunately "SPORTSCURMUDGEON' WE DON' SET THE PARAMETERS FOR HIS CLASSIFICATION, HE DOES. SO, DEPENDING ON THE LEGACY HE SO CHOOSES TO LEAVE BEHIND BOTH ''WARRIOR'' AND OR ''PUNK'' MAY BE A BIT ''EXTREME''

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]Did anyone read what Mark Maske had to say about how the Redskins should deal with Mr. Coles? "On Line from the Combine in Indy" I'm going to say this and it's my last post about Mr, Coles.

I think the Redskins should wait this guy out because he is not going to sit out the season. He's still under Contract, and he should be made to play out his obligation. The Redskins have no real obligation to trade a player already under contract just to satisfy the player. Suppose the other 52 players assumed that same attitude (espically when the tean will take a serious cap hit as a result) The only reason why players make these bold moves is because they are convinced they will be obliged, and that they will sign on with another team elsewhere.

That's why I think the Redskins should play Hard-Ball with this guy (because that's what he's doing with them) and thereby send a message that this type trend will not be acceptable.

Good Luck in 05[/QUOTE]

Sounds like keeping him is still a possibility, stay tuned...

Re: Full Blown Mutiny
 

keeping coles > letting coles rape our cap and trading him for a crappier guy that wants a new shiny (BIG) contract... so i'm hoping we keep him and get williams..