Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Wait - I think that's my nanny's grandfather's second-cousin-twice-removed's florist.

Seriously, why do you have concerns about promoting Morris to full time back? Is it just the fatigue thing or do you have other concerns? (and no, this is not a "do you know something we don't know" question - just curious as to why you don't think it's a good idea).

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=53Fan;965769]That's what it sounds like to me. Morris wants to be a complete back..Shanahan thinks he's special and gave him a shot.[/quote]I would like to see Shanny utilize Morris out of the backfield as a receiver too. I think he can be a complete back. He certainly runs harder than Royster or Helu, but I hope that Helu comes back next year as the change of pace back. I have little use for Royster, and would be surprised if he makes the team next year.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;965858]Wait - I think that's my nanny's grandfather's second-cousin-twice-removed's florist.

Seriously, why do you have concerns about promoting Morris to full time back? Is it just the fatigue thing or do you have other concerns? (and no, this is not a "do you know something we don't know" question - just curious as to why you don't think it's a good idea).[/quote]

I get that Royster has struggled this year in his limited opportunities, and I suppose they have their reasons for feeling neither Ryan Grant nor Steve Slaton belong on the roster.

But I don't want to see Morris worn out, not just for the rest of this season, but long term. He averaged around 20 yards a carry in college. Which I think is around where he's at right now, but that's just 12 games a year. Including preseason he's already surpassed that

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SmootSmack;965876]I get that Royster has struggled this year in his limited opportunities, and I suppose they have their reasons for feeling neither Ryan Grant nor Steve Slaton belong on the roster.

But I don't want to see Morris worn out, not just for the rest of this season, but long term. He averaged around 20 yards a carry in college. Which I think is around where he's at right now, but that's just 12 games a year. Including preseason he's already surpassed that[/quote]

Man you blew that stat. Haha.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

we knew he meant 20 carries a game. come on now. otherwise i'd put him in the hall myself ;).

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SmootSmack;965876]I get that Royster has struggled this year in his limited opportunities, and I suppose they have their reasons for feeling neither Ryan Grant nor Steve Slaton belong on the roster.

But I don't want to see Morris worn out, not just for the rest of this season, but long term. He averaged around 20 yards a carry in college. Which I think is around where he's at right now, but that's just 12 games a year. Including preseason he's already surpassed that[/quote]

You make a good point about Grant and Slaton -- both had 1000+ yard seasons, and they cannot even make the squad where we have 2 RBs (remember, Keiland Williams wasn't on the team when Helu went on IR). It's odd to me that neither of them was worth being a third down back, much less someone to spell Alfmo. He's been terrific this season, but I worry that even a rookie with not a lot of wear and tear will get fatigued by season's end. Of course, if he gives us the best chance to win, since every week is basically a playoff game, I suspect we're going to see only Morris until we're eliminated from playoff contention (insert Mora "Playoffs?!" rant here); if we somehow make the playoffs, it isn't as though he will get a rest then either.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SmootSmack;965876]I get that Royster has struggled this year in his limited opportunities, and I suppose they have their reasons for feeling neither Ryan Grant nor Steve Slaton belong on the roster.

But [B]I don't want to see Morris worn out, not just for the rest of this season, but long term[/B]. He averaged around 20 yards a carry in college. Which I think is around where he's at right now, but that's just 12 games a year. Including preseason he's already surpassed that[/quote]

I get that - particularly as to the long term. Again, it is my hope that they will be cognizant of the fact that he is a rookie and that he needs to be spelled on occasion. At the same time, I am firm believer in continuity. As long as they don't overwork him, being in on 3rd downs (I think) helps both him and the team on first and second down.

As Morris gets experience in obvious passing situations, it will help his pass blocking on 1st and 2nd down and, as gets in game experience as an outlet and/or receiver, it will increase the teams flexibility on early downs. Plus, on those 3rd downs which it is a guessing game (3rd and 2-4ish) as to pass v. run, it is less of an indicator if we leave him in as opposed to subbing him out for a pass catching/blocking back.

It's about using him wisely. Hopefully, MS and KS do that.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=FRPLG;965882]Man you blew that stat. Haha.[/quote]

Wishful thinking?

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

A back typically has 3-5 really good seasons in him before they start to break down. I say ride Morris for what he's worth while he's young and can handle it.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

I agree with those that said it's a blocking issue. Royster seems to be getting beaten up when blocking. I also agree with Smoot, while i whole heartily believe Morris can and is an "Every Down Back", I really don't want to see our diamond in the ruff get injured or ware down faster then normal.

next year kinda looks like a different story and one that may work very effectively. Helu comes back healthy as that change of pace / situational 3rd down RB, while Morris pounds the ground all the rest of the game. That sounds appetizing to me. Although I'm also for finding the biggest heaviest slowest FB / RB that we can and use him solely as an extra offensive lineman as well, so who am I to make a judgment call.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Also, think of how they can be even more creative on 3rd downs. On otherwise obvious passing downs, leaving Morris in creates an opportunity for big stretch play runs. He has shown the ability to be decisive and get big yards when gaps present themselves. As the line keeps improving its stretch play blocking, 3rd and 6-7 become legit running plays for a back like Morris. Doing so also helps the passing game by slowing down the rush even further.

Between Morris and RGIII as running threats on 3rd down, it will be difficult for defenders to ever just pin their ears back and forego their run responsibilities.

The fact that we "Lucked" into both RGIII and Morris in one draft is pretty f'ing amazing (I know everyone was convinced RGIII was a sure thing, but the truth is - until he began playing no one could be sure. Many a "sure thing" high draft pick has failed. "Luck"ily, Griffin appears to be everything he was hyped to be).

Throw in Kai Forbath and this was a damn fine year for rookie finds.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Mattyk;965891]A back typically has 3-5 really good seasons in him before they start to break down. I say ride Morris for what he's worth while he's young and can handle it.[/quote]

Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. We don't agree?! Now The Goat is scared and confused

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SmootSmack;965894]Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. We don't agree?! Now The Goat is scared and confused[/quote]

Forget about Goat ... What the hell am [I]I[/I] supposed to think. Damn it! Which one of you had the cotton candy boots??

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SmootSmack;965894]Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. We don't agree?! Now The Goat is scared and confused[/quote]

It's just another part of our master plan. Create the illusion of discord at the top, confuse the masses so now they really won't know how to vote in the next poll. Those that don't vote with us will then be booted in a late night purge. Muuuuhahahahahahahaha

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Mattyk;965891]A back typically has 3-5 really good seasons in him before they start to break down. I say ride Morris for what he's worth while he's young and can handle it.[/quote]That's why Shanny is a good bet to draft at least one running back in rounds 4-6 every year. Not every back will pan out, but he was always in position to reload whenever one of his Denver backs wore down or was injured.

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I'm surprised we didn't bring slaton in for a look, but I read a few other teams worked him out after Miami cut him. So something not right there, maybe his neck again?

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What about putting Darrel Young playing more of a 3rd down back role. He's a great blocker, great hands out of the backfield, and can carry the ball. I get some formations that's not an option and we need a FB and a RB. He could help spell Morris a bit though.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

young really impressed me on sunday. he is a hell of a blocker

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[quote=los panda;965959]young really impressed me on sunday. he is a hell of a blocker[/quote]

Young is the new Mike Sellers of our team. Catches, blocks, runs, cheers etc.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

They should have used Young on the 3rd and 1 instead of pitching it to Morris.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;965977]They should have used Young on the 3rd and 1 instead of pitching it to Morris.[/quote]

I was hoping a roll out/run by RGIII going left with Young and TW sealing off the edge -- that would have to have been good for the 6 inches we needed. Young would have been a good choice too. I was actually wondering whether they would give Keiland Williams a shot in short yardage too.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;965977]They should have used Young on the 3rd and 1 instead of pitching it to Morris.[/quote]

Young reminds me of Jerome Bettis. And not because they have the same number.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;965977]They should have used Young on the 3rd and 1 instead of pitching it to Morris.[/quote]

I was expecting a FB dive there.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Why don't we have Darrel Young carrying the ball more? I think he might be as effective as Morris on the zone read and from tackle to tackle.

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[quote=Mattyk;966009]I was expecting a FB dive there.[/quote]

That 3rd and short play calling is constantly an issue. Maybe it's trickery, maybe it's just closing your eyes and pointing at the 3rd and short play calls in the playbook, but there has GOT to be something better than a pitch, 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage in hopes of getting the first down.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;966028]That 3rd and short play calling is constantly an issue. Maybe it's trickery, maybe it's just closing your eyes and pointing at the 3rd and short play calls in the playbook, but there has GOT to be something better than a pitch, 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage in hopes of getting the first down.[/quote]

Agreed. Methinks sometimes Kyle gets too cute.

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;966028]That 3rd and short play calling is constantly an issue. Maybe it's trickery, maybe it's just closing your eyes and pointing at the 3rd and short play calls in the playbook, but [b]there has GOT to be something better than a pitch, 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage in hopes of getting the first down.[/b][/QUOTE]

Agreed. Just knuckle down and push them back.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

On third and short I'd like to see more just running at the other team then trying to run around them.

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[quote=firstdown;966038]On third and short I'd like to see more just running at the other team then trying to run around them.[/quote]

That's why I don't understand. You've got big Morris, Young, hell in a worse case scenario, you could even use Cooley. But I just don't get the pitching thing. You got big guys back there, let them do their job.

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[quote=HailGreen28;966027]Why don't we have Darrel Young carrying the ball more? I think he might be as effective as Morris on the zone read and from tackle to tackle.[/quote]

Mike Anderson style? Why not?

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;966041]That's why I don't understand. You've got big Morris, Young, hell in a worse case scenario, you could even use Cooley. But I just don't get the pitching thing. You got big guys back there, let them do their job.[/quote]

The irony was when we had smaller backs (Portis) we'd run it straight into the line for a loss more often than not.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Daseal;966071]The irony was when we had smaller backs (Portis) we'd run it straight into the line for a loss more often than not.[/quote]CP could run well between the tackles. I recall one victory against the eagles. We needed a first down on short yardage to be able to run the clock out and win. Portis basically demanded the ball and got the first down.

I think the reason Portis could run for short yardage, and we're reluctant to pound the middle in short yardage now, is the difference in our offensive line then and now. Back in Portis' day, our OL was built for smashmouth. Now, we have quicker guys for ZBS.

I still think on normal downs we could use Young on some of the interior runs, to help keep Morris from wearing out.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=HailGreen28;966075]CP could run well between the tackles. I recall one victory against the eagles. We needed a first down on short yardage to be able to run the clock out and win. Portis basically demanded the ball and got the first down.

I think the reason Portis could run for short yardage, and we're reluctant to pound the middle in short yardage now, is the difference in our offensive line then and now. Back in Portis' day, our OL was built for smashmouth. Now, we have quicker guys for ZBS.

I still think on normal downs we could use Young on some of the interior runs, to help keep Morris from wearing out.[/quote]

Really good point about how the OL is now configured for zone blocking rather than bulldozing. Still, giving up 3 yards to pitch the ball on a short yardage play on the goal line drives me crazy too.

And yes, I agree that Kyle may overthink things at times. We've got to figure some kind of interior power game for short yardage situations. Whatever happened to the quarterback draw, by the way?

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Regardless of the call, if you can't pick up a yard on 3rd down, I have to point the finger at the OL for ultimately not getting the job done.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Daseal;966071]The irony was when we had smaller backs (Portis) we'd run it straight into the line for a loss more often than not.[/quote]

We had a line better suited for power plays back then. Now we're a zone line that's best when moving side to side.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Mattyk;966096]Regardless of the call, if you can't pick up a yard on 3rd down, I have to point the finger at the OL for ultimately not getting the job done.[/quote]

We don't really have an oline built to overpower a dline going "toe to toe" though right? I guess my thinking was that's part of the reason we see the idiotic pitches or even gadget plays when we run the ball on short yardage downs. Not that we have to limit the playbook to pitches/gadget plays, but "we" haven't figured that out yet.

??

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=The Goat;966100]We don't really have an oline built to overpower a dline going "toe to toe" though right? I guess my thinking was that's part of the reason we see the idiotic pitches or even gadget plays when we run the ball on short yardage downs. Not that we have to limit the playbook to pitches/gadget plays, but "we" haven't figured that out yet.

??[/quote]

We've run some dives and and power runs on short yardage too though.

Sometimes you have to go against your tendencies. Or perhaps there was something on film the coaches thought they could exploit. I know, it's easier to just blast a play in hindsight when it doesn't work.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

[quote=Mattyk;966102]We've run some dives and and power runs on short yardage too though.

Sometimes you have to go against your tendencies. Or perhaps there was something on film the coaches thought they could exploit. I know, it's easier to just blast a play in hindsight when it doesn't work.[/quote]

That's true, mostly on short/quick counts to Young, and they've worked the times I can remember. You're right the quick dive would have been better than the pitch/gadget. I was actually thinking more about a base formation and pulling a guard, and since one of the best features of ZBS is quicker/mobile linemen our guards should be good to go. I know pulling a guard isn't a tradition short yardage play, but there you've got bigger/heavier/slower lineman and a QB not nearly as talented with the hard count as RG3.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Well I don't understand voluntarily making a 3rd and 6 inches a 3rd and 3. But anyway if Helu comes back healthy next year I don't know how you don't use him. Haven't checked myself but Bucket posted AM and Helu have the same amount of total yards in the same amount of games using Helu's stats from last year. I'm sure more of Helu's came from receiving than AM's did but I would want Helu in the game at times partly because he is a better receiver and partly because he has a better chance of breaking one and going to the house with it. I remember him running one in from about 28 yds. out last year and he wasn't 100%. With Helu from 3rd and 3 or 4 you really don't know what he's gonna do. And like SS says...there's your breather and saving some wear and tear for Morris. Of course all this depends on him getting and staying healthy which is no sure thing.

Re: Subtle Running Back Shuffle
 

Since the coaches want to get the offense into the "pistol" formation, I would like to see the Maryland I formation used also on running plays. But I've never seen a play in the NFL in which there are 3 running backs in the backfield behind the QB. Still, I think it would be an interesting wrinkle since the pistol formation has been used so much this season.