re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;986261]Maybe Judges view it differently for an entity like the NFLPA because they have big boy lawyers themselves. But, the concept of "Signing your rights away" is not recognized by the courts. People have been bullied into doing just that plenty of times only to have the Judge claim "Signed under duress" and throw that clause out. [/quote]

Yes, contracts entered into under duress can be voided, if a party demonstrates the duress. The players, however, did not enter the new CBA under duress but after much, very public, arms length negotiations. It is the contract terms of the new CBA, negotiated by the NFLPA, that provided the basis for the dismissal.

And, BTW, you can absolutely "sign your rights away", if you do so through the lack of due diligence. If you were pressured, but you could have found out the facts, well too bad, so sad.

[quote=Skinzman;986261]Second, the NFLPA has no right to make collusion for its negotiating partner legal. Thats completely up to the Govt at this point.[/quote]

Huh? The NFLPA sued for breach of the prior CBA. The NFL said the new CBA pre-empted the old CBA and, as part of that new agreement, you (the NFLPA) agreed not to sue us for any breaches of the old CBA. The govt. wasn't a party to either. It's essentially a breach of contract action.

[quote=Skinzman;986261]I dont see it going anywhere since the Govt wont take on the NFL, but that has nothing to do with the NFLPA signing its rights away and the NFL/NFLPA claiming to have jurisdiction on the Constitution of the USA with a claim of what they deem as legal even though its not through a clause in the CBA.[/quote]

Well, it's not going anywhere b/c J. Doty deemed, essentially, that there was no breach of a contract term. As to the rest, you just lost me - the Constitution has nothing to do with this action. Further, there is nothing illegal about a waiver clause. They are, in fact, common in any settlement agreement. It is practically unheard of to enter into a settlment agreement without such a waiver. No client of mine would [I]ever[/I] sign a settlement agreement that didn't have such a clause.

For the record, I think collusion occurred and that the NFL didn't disclose it prior to signing the new CBA. None of that, however, effects the correctness of J. Doty's dismissal.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

This would be great news after the somber news leaking on Griffin's condition. The cap penalty is bogus considering the violation occurred in an uncapped year - clearly there was collusion among every owner (and Goodell) not named Dan Snyder or Jerry Jones.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Skinzman;986261]Maybe Judges view it differently for an entity like the NFLPA because they have big boy lawyers themselves.[B] But, the concept of "Signing your rights away" is not recognized by the courts.[/B] People have been bullied into doing just that plenty of times only to have the Judge claim "Signed under duress" and throw that clause out. Second, the NFLPA has no right to make collusion for its negotiating partner legal. Thats completely up to the Govt at this point.

I dont see it going anywhere since the Govt wont take on the NFL, but that has nothing to do with the NFLPA signing its rights away and the NFL/NFLPA claiming to have jurisdiction on the Constitution of the USA with a claim of what they deem as legal even though its not through a clause in the CBA.[/quote]
Out of curiosity, what do you think any formal waiver is? It is a waiving of your rights, ie signing your rights away.

The level of the waiver, and how it is reached certainly can be reviewed, which is what J. Doty looked at, and he came to the conclusion that the waiver signed by both parties was valid, not reached via bullying tactics, and included even unknown acts of collusion.

Had he not ruled, and the two parties dropped the matter before he did, then your thinking about a cap settlement might have been closer to the fact. But he did rule, and specifically in the NFL's favor, so the NFL is not going to suddenly say Oops, NFLPA you got us.

Also, our getting the cap money back is actually a separate fact which the NFLPA was not trying to change. Our penalty was solely a means to an end for them to try and re-open the collusion case, they were not trying to get the Skins penalty revoked.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I'm just going to make an observation here:

For the past thirteen years, the Redskins have consistently been the biggest spender in the off-season. Nearly without exception, they have every year made a giant splash in free-agent signings. And this has been the greatest criticism of a team that has been one of the least successful teams in the NFL over that time period. The Redskins have been mocked for foolishly wasting money and continuing to believe that whatever holes the team has can be quickly and easily filled via free agency.

Then, in 2012, within hours of the beginning of free agency, the Redskins were stripped of the opportunity to engage in the free-agent market as they usually do. Nine months later, the team won its first division title in thirteen seasons, mostly on the backs of unproven, hungry, young talent.

I'm not convinced that allowing the Redskins to go back to their old ways is going to produce results different from those of the past.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

I hope we get something back... looks like we have next to no cap space as-is. Sure, we can make room by cutting Hall and restructuring guys, but doing that's what got us into cap hell to begin with. I don't think we can really improve our team that much next year if we are assessed the full cap penalty.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=mbedner3420;986041]Can you imagine a healthy, motivated Meriweather and Jarius Byrd roaming the backfield? That'd be amazing.[/quote]

As amazing as Deion Sanders and Mark Carrier?

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

So can someone answer this for me:

Did we stay under the cap by 18mil this year?

I had heard conflicting things to say we didn't.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Coff;986317]I'm not convinced that allowing the Redskins to go back to their old ways is going to produce results different from those of the past.[/quote]

Only re-hiring Vinny Cerrrato would be going back to our old ways. Allen knows how to spend wisely.

Speaking of Vinny, I was flipping through radio stations in the car a few days ago and discovered Vinny HAS HIS OWN SHOW on CBS Sports Radio. Wow.

Maybe this is not news, but I was shocked.

CBS Sports Radio just replaced my local ESPN Radio affiliate...so now I have a choice between Yahoo Sports Radio or CBS in the car...no more ESPN. Not a fan of the CBS yet...Tiki Barber in the morning, Vinny in the mid-day, then Doug "Do you know I played at OSU" Gottlieb...yikes.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Coff;986319]As amazing as Deion Sanders and Mark Carrier?[/quote]sam shade and mark carrier

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=los panda;986336]sam shade and mark carrier[/quote]

You cant leave Archeletta on the bench if your gonna make him the highest paid safety in the game

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986326]So can someone answer this for me:

Did we stay under the cap by 18mil this year?

I had heard conflicting things to say we didn't.[/quote]where did you hear that we didn't?

i'm not hip to all the rules, but that sounds insane.
couldn't get under the cap? don't worry, welcome to the playoffs anyways...

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=los panda;986336]sam shade and mark carrier[/quote]

LaRon Landry and OJ Atogwe...what could have been.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986326]So can someone answer this for me:

Did we stay under the cap by 18mil this year?

I had heard conflicting things to say we didn't.[/quote]

Yeah we were under, you have to be.

Not by $18M though

[QUOTE=artmonkforhallofamein07;986326]So can someone answer this for me:

Did we stay under the cap by 18mil this year?

I had heard conflicting things to say we didn't.[/QUOTE]

probably semantics...
Our cap was reduced by 18,000,000 so therefore we stayed under our cap but we were not 18,000,000 under our team cap number. We were 18 million under the general cap number.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=los panda;986341]where did you hear that we didn't?

i'm not hip to all the rules, but that sounds insane.
couldn't get under the cap? don't worry, welcome to the playoffs anyways...[/quote]

A brief blip or two on here during the season. Nothing that I even really paid much attention to, but now I am curious if they were eronious or true.

So to clarify the question: Did we spend 102 mil this year or more?

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm[/url]

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Mattyk;986354]Yeah we were under, you have to be.

Not by $18M though[/quote]

See that's what I was asking, so if we didn't get the penalty with drawn what ever money we had left over above that 18mil penalty will have to be parlayed to this season. Meaning we would have to be 18mil plus what ever overage we had this year to stay within the limitations put on us by the league.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

Looking at the cap spread sheet, we will have to be some where in the neighborhood of 29 mil under the cap this coming up year. We are currently only about 7 mil under the cap and the punishment set out by the league was for us to be 36 mil under the cap between two years, 2012 and 2013. The way it looks now if the penalty stays in place is we will have a cap of around 91mil this year when you take into the account for the penalty that is left over.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

we should also keep in mind that if RGIII gets and stays healthy we will have to give him a HUGE contract in a couple of years . . . Afred Morris will be earning a substantial one as well . . . we should be careful with how much we spend over the next couple of years even if we get some of the money back . . . maybe not having it is a blessing in disguise . . .

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986409]Looking at the cap spread sheet, we will have to be some where in the neighborhood of 29 mil under the cap this coming up year. We are currently only about 7 mil under the cap and the punishment set out by the league was for us to be 36 mil under the cap between two years, 2012 and 2013. The way it looks now if the penalty stays in place is we will have a cap of around 91mil this year when you take into the account for the penalty that is left over.[/quote]you were deceived

i believe we were under the cap and penalty

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986409]Looking at the cap spread sheet, we will have to be some where in the neighborhood of 29 mil under the cap this coming up year. We are currently only about 7 mil under the cap and the punishment set out by the league was for us to be 36 mil under the cap between two years, 2012 and 2013. The way it looks now if the penalty stays in place is we will have a cap of around 91mil this year when you take into the account for the penalty that is left over.[/quote]

I dont know what cap sheet you're looking at. If we are assessed the full 18MM hit, the sheet on this site has us only a couple million under the projected cap for 2013.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;986419]I dont know what cap sheet you're looking at. If we are assessed the full 18MM hit, the sheet on this site has us only a couple million under the projected cap for 2013.[/quote]

Look at the link that Matty posted. 120,7 mil was the cap for this year for the league last year. Meaning we would only have 102,7 available if we took the full 18m. Our bottom line # was something like 113,9. So we weren't at that 102,7 # that would have split the 36mil over the two seasons.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986422]Look at the link that Matty posted. 120,7 mil was the cap for this year for the league last year. Meaning we would only have 102,7 available if we took the full 18m. Our bottom line # was something like 113,9. So we weren't at that 102,7 # that would have split the 36mil over the two seasons.[/quote]keep in mind that it is not official, and that it was last updated before the regular season started

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986422]Look at the link that Matty posted. 120,7 mil was the cap for this year for the league last year. Meaning we would only have 102,7 available if we took the full 18m. Our bottom line # was something like 113,9. So we weren't at that 102,7 # that would have split the 36mil over the two seasons.[/quote]

Are you trying to argue that we didnt take an 18MM cap penalty last year, and as a result, we'll take more than 18MM this year? You are mistaken. The NFL forced us to take the 18MM hit last year. I beleive you are misinterpretting the information on the cap spreadsheet:

[url=http://www.thewarpath.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=948594]The Warpath[/url]
[quote=CrazyCanuck;948594]My sheets include an $18M penalty. However we had $13M of unused cap space from last year which helps to offset.[/quote]

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

for example, did jammal brown really count $4.5M against our cap?
carriker, the entire $3.9M?
orakpo, the entire $3M?
etc.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

BHA I may be, and I'll admit it if I am wrong. That is why I asked the question and I was hoping for CC to confirm we took the 18 mil this year.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

$18M penalty taken this year, we'll take another $18M next year.

Not sure what the confusion is all about.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Mattyk;986435]$18M penalty taken this year, we'll take another $18M next year.

Not sure what the confusion is all about.[/quote]i don't think it's clearly reflected on the cap summary sheet

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Coff;986317]I'm just going to make an observation here:

For the past thirteen years, the Redskins have consistently been the biggest spender in the off-season. Nearly without exception, they have every year made a giant splash in free-agent signings. And this has been the greatest criticism of a team that has been one of the least successful teams in the NFL over that time period. The Redskins have been mocked for foolishly wasting money and continuing to believe that whatever holes the team has can be quickly and easily filled via free agency.

Then, in 2012, within hours of the beginning of free agency, the Redskins were stripped of the opportunity to engage in the free-agent market as they usually do. Nine months later, the team won its first division title in thirteen seasons, mostly on the backs of unproven, hungry, young talent.

I'm not convinced that allowing the Redskins to go back to their old ways is going to produce results different from those of the past.[/quote]


I have been thinking this same thing ever since the Giants were watching the Redskins and Cowboys battle for the NFC EAST crown. Mara forced the Redskins to be fiscally conservative and utilize more young, hungry players along with re-signing key team members from the year before.

Kind of ironic huh?

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=GoSkins!;986468]I have been thinking this same thing ever since the Giants were watching the Redskins and Cowboys battle for the NFC EAST crown. Mara forced the Redskins to be fiscally conservative and utilize more young, hungry players along with re-signing key team members from the year before.

Kind of ironic huh?[/quote]

The skins have been fiscally conservative since Shanahan and Allen took over. It was nothing like it was under the "Snyderatto years." If Mara didn't try to F us over, we wouldnt have spent like crazy. we would have probably signed 2 or 3 talented, but not elite secondary players to reasonable contracts, and perhaps signed someone like Eddie Royal who would have made the roster instead of Brandon Banks. There's not telling what we would have done, but we certainly wouldn't have done anything crazy.

... Except perhaps sign Peyton Manning, if we were truly seriously interested. If we had, i really dont think we would have drafted RGIII. Just seems like overkill. Yeah, we had already traded for the #2 pick, but we easily could have flipped the pick to the browns, used our 1st rounder on Matt Kalil or Morris Claybourne, our 2nd on Janoris Jenkins, and still gotten Kirk Cousins to eventually take over from Manning.

Come to think of it, if that was our plan, then Mara really did screw us over. Not that we could have forseen RGIII getting hurt or Cousins being as good as he appears to be, but that scenario would seem to set our team up for more short and long-term success than what we have now. Oh well, so much for that crazy fantasy.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=Mattyk;986435]$18M penalty taken this year, we'll take another $18M next year.

Not sure what the confusion is all about.[/quote]

It isn't taken into account on the spreadsheet you posted that CC does. No worries, but that is where my confusion came from.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986528]It isn't taken into account on the spreadsheet you posted that CC does. No worries, but that is where my confusion came from.[/quote]

Sorry if the sheets are confusing but yes the $18M for 2012 is included.

The penalty is part of "cap credits" at the bottom. We took an $18M penalty but we had $13M of credits from the year before. So works out to ~$5M.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;986552]Sorry if the sheets are confusing but yes the $18M for 2012 is included.

The penalty is part of "cap credits" at the bottom. We took an $18M penalty but we had $13M of credits from the year before. So works out to ~$5M.[/quote]

Thanks for explaining, I was trying to see it listed, but didn't see it as a singular line item.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;986560]Thanks for explaining, I was trying to see it listed, but didn't see it as a singular line item.[/quote]

Ya maybe I'll rename it "Cap Penalties & Credits" to make it clearer.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;986569]Ya maybe I'll rename it "Cap Penalties & Credits" to make it clearer.[/quote]

If you're going to rename things, i think it would be helpful to have three different rows: One called "Cap Penalties," "Cap Credits" and a "Net Penalty/Credit" which shows the net of the two. Maybe another name for the last column would be better, but i can see this being a continuing point of confusion throughout the offseason. If i hadnt read your post in the other thread, i wouldnt have understood what the the factors went into the "credits" calculation.

If thats too complicated, maybe we could just have a footnote or something on the page that explains how the "Cap Penalties & Credits" was calculated.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;986584]If you're going to rename things, i think it would be helpful to have three different rows: One called "Cap Penalties," "Cap Credits" and a "Net Penalty/Credit" which shows the net of the two. Maybe another name for the last column would be better, but i can see this being a continuing point of confusion throughout the offseason. If i hadnt read your post in the other thread, i wouldnt have understood what the the factors went into the "credits" calculation.

If thats too complicated, maybe we could just have a footnote or something on the page that explains how the "Cap Penalties & Credits" was calculated.[/quote]

Maybe I'll add some explanation to the notes page too. I never had cap penalties listed cuz they never existed before this year. I guess Vinny ran a tighter ship than Bruce Allen. :)

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;986552]Sorry if the sheets are confusing but yes the $18M for 2012 is included.

The penalty is part of "cap credits" at the bottom. We took an $18M penalty but we had $13M of credits from the year before. So works out to ~$5M.[/quote]

Thank you very much for the clarification.

So since we had a credit of 13mil then the ramifications of the next 18mil could be a little more severe to how we are able to work our roster this offseason. Is that a fair assessment CC?

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;986599]Thank you very much for the clarification.

So since we had a credit of 13mil then the ramifications of the next 18mil could be a little more severe to how we are able to work our roster this offseason. Is that a fair assessment CC?[/quote]

I think someone else said it, but we will be able to use cap magic to push a lot of numbers into 2014 if need be, where our cap should seem huge compared to this coming year. Basically we will have the ability, through reworks, option bonuses, etc to offset it's effects to some degree. I imagine we will be in about the same position as we were this year once all is said and done.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;986604]I think someone else said it, but we will be able to use cap magic to push a lot of numbers into 2014 if need be, where our cap should seem huge compared to this coming year. Basically we will have the ability, through reworks, option bonuses, etc to offset it's effects to some degree. I imagine we will be in about the same position as we were this year once all is said and done.[/quote]

I'm sure we'll get by... but it will negatively affect what we could otherwise do in this offseason and in future seasons. Its a good feeling to be able to cut DHall next year without taking any sort of hit. By working "magic" to get by in 2013, we wont be in that same position in future years.

re: Good/Bad News for a Change - 2013 18MM cap penalty probably (not) going away
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;986608]I'm sure we'll get by... but it will negatively affect what we could otherwise do in this offseason and in future seasons. Its a good feeling to be able to cut DHall next year without taking any sort of hit. By working "magic" to get by in 2013, we wont be in that same position in future years.[/quote]

maybe, but so far BA has shown a good ability to manage the situation. I am sure there will be some negative effect, after all it was a 36Million dollar handicap to the rest of the league. But my belief is that we will be better prepared to deal with it this year, than last when it was sprung after all the plans had been made. And if any relief at all is given, well so much the better.