re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=The Goat;996463]This post is below your typical IQ IMO.

I've not heard/seen/read a single reference about Robinson impressing on a specific play, series or game. And again, now he's coming off a relatively serious injury. The rising notion he's a starter, let alone a good choice for replacing London, is just absurd. That's my point.[/quote]

Mr. Goat, I respectfully offer that you missed my point entirely. The point was that you cannot judge a player, for good or for ill, based on one play. Yet you did just this in a post above.

Further, you are forgetting that Robinson was a rookie. Did you know that Santana Moss caught only two passes as a rookie? Based on his rookie production, it would have been "absurd" to think that Moss could be a viable #1 receiver. Yet that is exactly what happened.

Rookies often struggle. And then they improve. Such might happen to Robinson, prior injury or not.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Lotus;996468]Mr. Goat, I respectfully offer that you missed my point entirely. The point was that you cannot judge a player, for good or for ill, based on one play. Yet you did just this in a post above.

Further, you are forgetting that Robinson was a rookie. Did you know that Santana Moss caught only two passes as a rookie? Based on his rookie production, it would have been "absurd" to think that Moss could be a viable #1 receiver. Yet that is exactly what happened.

Rookies often struggle. And then they improve. Such might happen to Robinson, prior injury or not.[/quote]

A......men

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Lotus;996468]Mr. Goat, I respectfully offer that you missed my point entirely. The point was that you cannot judge a player, for good or for ill, based on one play. Yet you did just this in a post above.

Further, you are forgetting that Robinson was a rookie. Did you know that Santana Moss caught only two passes as a rookie? Based on his rookie production, it would have been "absurd" to think that Moss could be a viable #1 receiver. Yet that is exactly what happened.

Rookies often struggle. And then they improve. Such might happen to Robinson, prior injury or not.[/quote]

Was Tana in the discussion to replace a HOFer for his 2nd season?

[QUOTE=The Goat;996463]This post is below your typical IQ IMO.

I've not heard/seen/read a single reference about Robinson impressing on a specific play, series or game. And again, now he's coming off a relatively serious injury. The rising notion he's a starter, let alone a good choice for replacing London, is just absurd. That's my point.[/QUOTE]

On the subject of absurd, you referenced one single play as a basis for your opinion. I don't think anyone is calling him a sure starter, but he's certain to be in the mix as a possible starter if Fletcher is gone. Fact is we're still in wait and see mode with him.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Mattyk;996479]On the subject of absurd, you referenced one single play as a basis for your opinion. I don't think anyone is calling him a sure starter, but he's certain to be in the mix as a possible starter if Fletcher is gone. Fact is we're still in wait and see mode with him.[/quote]

Like we're still in wait and see mode with Goat...

Well, maybe not.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=The Goat;996473]Was Tana in the discussion to replace a HOFer for his 2nd season?[/quote]

The question isn't who will replace a HoFer, because only another HoFer could do that, and that is a ridiculously high standard.

The question is, "Can Robinson play at a reasonably high level in Fletch's spot?" In answer to this question, none of us can be 100% certain that he will. But none of us, including you, can be 100% certain that he won't. And no one should judge the answer based on one play.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Lotus;996487]The question isn't who will replace a HoFer, because only another HoFer could do that, and that is a ridiculously high standard.

The question is, "Can Robinson play at a reasonably high level in Fletch's spot?" In answer to this question, none of us can be 100% certain that he will. But none of us, including you, can be 100% certain that he won't. And no one should judge the answer based on one play.[/quote]

Furthermore, lets call a spade a spade, Fletcher was not playing at HOF status the last few years. He was an above average linebacker (looking specifically at his play). I'm not sure what Robinson is/isnt, but for me the worry isn't replacing Fletcher on the field. Its the locker room leader he is that is my bigger concern.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

At this point, ive moved on from Fletcher. He can still play at a high level, but given the salary cap penalty, the 4MM in cap room we'd save by cutting him is more valuable than he is.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Gmanc711;996496]Furthermore, lets call a spade a spade, Fletcher was not playing at HOF status the last few years. He was an above average linebacker (looking specifically at his play). I'm not sure what Robinson is/isnt, but for me the worry isn't replacing Fletcher on the field. Its the locker room leader he is that is my bigger concern.[/quote]

Well said.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/london-fletcher-having-surgery-today-planning-comeback/]London Fletcher having surgery today, planning comeback | ProFootballTalk[/url]

looks like he's coming back at a huge cap number

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Chico23231;996573][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/london-fletcher-having-surgery-today-planning-comeback/]London Fletcher having surgery today, planning comeback | ProFootballTalk[/url]

looks like he's coming back at a huge cap number[/quote]

We'll probably release and resign.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Chico23231;996573][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/06/london-fletcher-having-surgery-today-planning-comeback/]London Fletcher having surgery today, planning comeback | ProFootballTalk[/url]

looks like he's coming back at a huge cap number[/quote]

Looks like the SKins are going to cut him. I think Mike was hoping Fletch made the decision easy for him, but I really would be surprised if he stays on with that cap number.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

I'd love to see Fletcher back, just not with his current cap #. They'll obviously have to work that out.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

Even coming back he takes up close to a mil. Vet min (assuming he gets that) is 940,000. Yes, better than 3.4, but still a lot. Assuming he can stay healthy. Him getting surgery makes this better sounding to me than before, but I'm still iffy on it.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

I think one major reason fletch is coming back to play this year is because he wouldn't want to be in the same hall of fame class as ray Lewis. He wants to be in a different year then him, plus he wants to prove mike he isn't retiring.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;996593]I think one major reason fletch is coming back to play this year is because he wouldn't want to be in the same hall of fame class as ray Lewis. He wants to be in a different year then him, [B]plus he wants to prove mike he isn't retiring[/B].[/quote]

I actually thought that the other day with what Shanny said, it was a challenge to Fletch to come back. Tell ya, these coaches know how to motivate

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Chico23231;996598]I actually thought that the other day with what Shanny said, it was a challenge to Fletch to come back. Tell ya, these coaches know how to motivate[/quote]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

I can't see how anyone in the org. wouldn't want the guy back.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

I'm not the cap expert, but i dont see how cutting and re-signing Fletcher would work.

He's currently scheduled to make 6.2MM this year. If we cut him, we take a 2.8MM cap hit. So, unless Fletcher would be willing to come back for less than 3.4MM, it would be advantagous for the team to cut and resign him.

From Fletchers perspective, he's not having surgeries and planning to come back to make half of the 6.2MM he was scheduled to make this year. He certainly wouldnt be coming back to make the vet minimum.

Again, i just dont see cutting/resigning as a viable option. We either sacrifice other areas of the team and keep his contract as-is, restructure and push cap into future seasons (which would be stupid), or cut him and he plays somewhere else.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;996601]I'm not the cap expert, but i dont see how cutting and re-signing Fletcher would work.

He's currently scheduled to make 6.2MM this year. If we cut him, we take a 2.8MM cap hit. So, unless Fletcher would be willing to come back for less than 3.4MM, it would be advantagous for the team to cut and resign him.

From Fletchers perspective, he's not having surgeries and planning to come back to make half of the 6.2MM he was scheduled to make this year. He certainly wouldnt be coming back to make the vet minimum.

Again, i just dont see cutting/resigning as a viable option. We either sacrifice other areas of the team and keep his contract as-is, restructure and push cap into future seasons (which would be stupid), or cut him and he plays somewhere else.[/quote]

By cutting him the net savings is about $3.4M. Then they can work out a new deal. They can just give him a new 2-3 year deal that's structured so it looks nice on paper, when in reality it will probably just be a one year deal.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;996601]I'm not the cap expert, but i dont see how cutting and re-signing Fletcher would work.

He's currently scheduled to make 6.2MM this year. If we cut him, we take a 2.8MM cap hit. So, unless Fletcher would be willing to come back for less than 3.4MM, it would be advantagous for the team to cut and resign him.

From Fletchers perspective, he's not having surgeries and planning to come back to make half of the 6.2MM he was scheduled to make this year. He certainly wouldnt be coming back to make the vet minimum.

Again, i just dont see cutting/resigning as a viable option. We either sacrifice other areas of the team and keep his contract as-is, restructure and push cap into future seasons (which would be stupid), or cut him and he plays somewhere else.[/quote]

In a normal year pushing half his cap hit off would be stupid, but two things make this not a normal year, and why I think the Skins ought to gain maybe 4-5million in cap space by doing the following with LF and maybe 2 others.
First, next year we will not have an 18Mil albatross on our cap number, so as long as we are smart we shouldn't be in nearly the bad shape that this year finds us, and second, in 2015, the cap should go up significantly as the new TV money comes in. With those two factors, I would sign LF to a 3 year deal, the last year voidable, with a 4Mil signing bonus, and vet min next 2 years. That would pay LF about 5Mil this year, while making a cap hit of 2-2.25 mil this year, and either a 3 million next year or if you make him a Jun 1st cut next year (or he retires after Jun 1st) the numbers would be dead money, but in the very palatable 1-2mil per year. Again, not ideal but worth it to keep LF, save a little cap space and get out from under the penalty this year.

I know pushing money back has pitfalls, and should not be the normal mode, but this year I think the Skins should push 9 mil of the penalty through the next 2 years through use of deadcap and extended contracts.

If they can't well then at least this will be behind us after this year, and we can move forward to signing Griff to a 6 year 123 mill contract. :)

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Gmanc711;996496]Furthermore, lets call a spade a spade, Fletcher was not playing at HOF status the last few years. He was an above average linebacker (looking specifically at his play). I'm not sure what Robinson is/isnt, but for me the worry isn't replacing Fletcher on the field. Its the locker room leader he is that is my bigger concern.[/quote]

Really if you look at his stats he looks pretty good.

Ranking in tackles

2012 8th but no one close to his number of tackles had 5 ints
2011 1st
2010 7th
2009 2nd
2008 & 2007 6th

Also if you look at the other players in the top 10 in tackles their names come and go but Fletcher has been consistent over the years.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=firstdown;996609]Really if you look at his stats he looks pretty good.

Ranking in tackles

2012 8th but no one close to his number of tackles had 5 ints
2011 1st
2010 7th
2009 2nd
2008 & 2007 6th

Also if you look at the other players in the top 10 in tackles their names come and go but Fletcher has been consistent over the years.[/quote]

Damn you man don't bring facts and reason into this!! He's old, washed up, a shadow of his former self, and we have an all pro waiting in the folds to take over.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

Glad he's coming back but I hope he's taken off the field on obvious passing downs.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

Maybe we can have a ray Lewis ravens type of run this year with fletch telling the team he's retiring at the end of the year to motivate the defense, and team.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;996616]Maybe we can have a ray Lewis ravens type of run this year with fletch telling the team he's retiring at the end of the year to motivate the defense, and team.[/quote]

Maybe Fletcher AND Moss should do this. Than if draft Teo, we could have another emotional booster. We might even go undefeated.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=skinsfan69;996615]Glad he's coming back but I hope he's taken off the field on obvious passing downs.[/quote]

IMO asking a tackling machine who also does a great job creating pressure to cover on the outside is a scheme issue. Evidence wise, we saw the scheme change a bit toward the 2nd half of the season, London covered less, and the defense improved.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

I think Fletcher is getting a little disrespected. Fletcher is obviously a warrior in every sense of the word- that's a given and what everyone accepts. But what people seem to forget is - he's also a straight up baller. He's one of the few players that could go head to head with Brandon Jacobs and get the best of him. He's near top of the league every year in tackles. Even in coverage, he's made a bunch of picks at critical times. Is his physical attributes lessening? Yes. Does he have weaknesses in his game? Yes, but not many and probably only one obvious weakness - man coverage. In zone coverage - he's still a baller. And I don't know but one middle linebacker that plays man coverage exceptionally well - Urlacher.

But I think his production and contribution on the field is just as important as his leadership.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

No doubt Fletcher is a baller. Is anyone really disputing that? I guess it's a sin to suggest that he's lost a step. He's still ballin' even with losing a step, but at 38 years old he's simply not the same guy he was 3-5 years ago.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Mattyk;996623]No doubt Fletcher is a baller. Is anyone really disputing that? I guess it's a sin to suggest that he's lost a step. He's still ballin' even with losing a step, but at 38 years old he's simply not the same guy he was 3-5 years ago.[/quote]

Yup, not disputing he's lost a step and declining but he makes the team much better by being on the field - noticeably raising the level of play.

Losing a step and strength, getting injured more easily,and feeling more pain for longer is all part of being older. But Fletcher should be on the field as much as possible. And even considering his weakness in coverage, he had the most interceptions on the team. Most of them at critical and turning points in games.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=The Goat;996612]Damn you man don't bring facts and reason into this!! He's old, washed up, a shadow of his former self, and [B]we have an all pro waiting in the folds to take over[/B].[/quote]

:doh:

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Mattyk;996623]No doubt Fletcher is a baller. Is anyone really disputing that? I guess it's a sin to suggest that he's lost a step. He's still ballin' even with losing a step, but at 38 years old he's simply not the same guy he was 3-5 years ago.[/quote]

I'll say this, London Fletcher at 37-38 is clearly better than Ray Lewis at 37-38.

Just look at coverage alone. Sure London wasn't great in coverage this year, especially against TE's, but he was clearly better than Ray was.

[QUOTE=Mattyk;996603]By cutting him the net savings is about $3.4M. Then they can work out a new deal. They can just give him a new 2-3 year deal that's structured so it looks nice on paper, when in reality it will probably just be a one year deal.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't the prototypical contract restructuring accomplish the same thing?

[QUOTE=CultBrennan59;996643]I'll say this, London Fletcher at 37-38 is clearly better than Ray Lewis at 37-38.

Just look at coverage alone. Sure London wasn't great in coverage this year, especially against TE's, but he was clearly better than Ray was.[/QUOTE]

Yeah honestly ray wasn't very good last season before he was injured and even in the playoffs he was just not the same.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;996722]Doesn't the prototypical contract restructuring accomplish the same thing?[/quote]

True, I guess I was still looking at it from the perspective of him not being sure if he's coming back or not.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;996722]Doesn't the prototypical contract restructuring accomplish the same thing?[/quote]

[quote=Mattyk;996754]True, I guess I was still looking at it from the perspective of him not being sure if he's coming back or not.[/quote]

IMO we should show Fletch respect by asking him whether he'd prefer a restructure or a cut/re-sign. Let him decide.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Lotus;996758]IMO we should show Fletch respect by asking him whether he'd prefer a restructure or a cut/re-sign. Let him decide.[/quote]

If he's telling the team he's coming back I'd assume they will start working on a restructure, assuming the team wants him back of course.

re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=Mattyk;996759]If he's telling the team he's coming back I'd assume they will start working on a restructure, assuming the team wants him back of course.[/quote]

I'm assuming he wouldnt have had the surgeries and publically say he's coming back if he didnt know we wanted him back. I highly doubt he'd go through the trouble to play one more year somewhere else.

Re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;996777]I'm assuming he wouldnt have had the surgeries and publically say he's coming back if he didnt know we wanted him back. I highly doubt he'd go through the trouble to play one more year somewhere else.[/quote]

That's what I thought too, that the framework is there, and both sides basically ok'd it, so he had his surgery. His comments, if I read them right, were pretty clear that for him playing again meant as a Redskin.

Still thinking the new agent to team period will let a lot of guys get a good feel, and actually give the home team a bit of an advantage if a player(not Fletch) has an unrealistic view of his market value.

Re: London Fletcher leaning towards playing in 2013 (updated)
 

More than anything, Fletcher is motivated by the aspirations to get his second Super Bowl ring. I think the Redskins can do it.

[QUOTE=REDSKINS4ever;997292]More than anything, Fletcher is motivated by the aspirations to get his second Super Bowl ring. I think the Redskins can do it.[/QUOTE]

I may be drinking to much kool aid but I think it's quite possible.