Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015353]Right now I wouldn't take any QB over ARod. But if u asked me that in 4 years I'd say Griffin. Tom Brady to me, as I've said many times on here is the best QB of all time and yes his numbers and wins back that up, but he's getting old and only has a few yrs left IMO. I agree with matt on those 4 mentioned.[/quote]

So Joe Montana isn't the greatest of all time? Him and even Terry Bradshaw and his 4 super bowl rings may have something to say about that. If your going the Super Bowl route of course. If your not then Favre and Manning would win the statistics categories.

I understand you said its your opinion, but just something to think about to maybe change your opinion.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;1015355]So Joe Montana isn't the greatest of all time? Him and even Terry Bradshaw and his 4 super bowl rings may have something to say about that. If your going the Super Bowl route of course. If your not then Favre and Manning would win the statistics categories.

I understand you said its your opinion, but just something to think about to maybe change your opinion.[/quote]

I think its a combination of statistics, wins, superbowls, and playing your best when the games matter most. But unlike other sports, there really is not a consensus best player or best quarterback ever so everyone's opinion will be completely different based on what they value. Maybe RG3 changes that and becomes the best quarterback ever...

[QUOTE=CultBrennan59;1015355]So Joe Montana isn't the greatest of all time? Him and even Terry Bradshaw and his 4 super bowl rings may have something to say about that. If your going the Super Bowl route of course. If your not then Favre and Manning would win the statistics categories.

I understand you said its your opinion, but just something to think about to maybe change your opinion.[/QUOTE]

Joe Montana had a loaded offense to play with without free agency. Other than Randy moss, Tom Brady has never had a good number 1 WR. Also actually if u look at the numbers Steve young had a better QB rating, better completion percentage than Joe. I'm not saying Montana wasn't great but to me he is a tad bit overrated. Also people hate on Tom because he's a patriot, I have never understood why he always gets so much grief.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

People get carried away with this "Best of ALL TIME " crap, the game was different for Montana and Marino ,teams were different some had good D's others were stacked on Offense. Bradshaw never had to carry a team by himself at the end of a game between his D and his O weapons ,Stuabach was awesome in the clutch....etc. Stats are great but as been said before the only stat that matters in the end is did they win the super bowl ?Hell even the fields and stadiums are different now ,everyone has their own opinion ...mine is Johnny Unitas, the man was perfect on the field.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY6hT-1BUZk[/ame]

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

Marino was probably the best pure passer I've seen, Montana would get my vote for tops of all time for being so cool under pressure and playing his best with a game on the line. But really, you could make an argument for a number of guys. It's splitting hairs after a while.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015360]Joe Montana had a loaded offense to play with without free agency. Other than Randy moss, Tom Brady has never had a good number 1 WR. Also actually if u look at the numbers Steve young had a better QB rating, better completion percentage than Joe. I'm not saying Montana wasn't great but to me he is a tad bit overrated. Also people hate on Tom because he's a patriot, I have never understood why he always gets so much grief.[/quote]

Understand, don't mean to pick on you or anything. Like others said, there is no right answer and its all opinion based.

Hell, if your talking purely on best NFL player ever, it might be Jerry Rice.

And my best QB ever is Montana, but I think Manning (Peyton) has a very very good chance to be considered the best ever.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;1015366]Understand, don't mean to pick on you or anything. Like others said, there is no right answer and its all opinion based.

Hell, if your talking purely on best NFL player ever, it might be Jerry Rice.

And my best QB ever is Montana, [B]but I think Manning (Peyton) has a very very good chance to be considered the best ever[/B].[/quote]

Another ring would help out a lot in that regard.

I think he's already in the discussion for best ever, but only having 1 ring will be used as a knock against him by some, fair or not.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=Mattyk;1015367]Another ring would help out a lot in that regard.

I think he's already in the discussion for best ever, but only having 1 ring will be used as a knock against him by some, fair or not.[/quote]

And I think he gets that chance at a ring this year.

Unfortunate that he didn't get that ring against New Orleans, but then again, Brees is a great QB who definitely deserved at least one ring for what he's done in the league.

A name who I would put in my top 10 though is Kurt Warner. He took 2 teams to super bowls and has by far the best story of any of these QBs to of ever played.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=Mattyk;1015367]Another ring would help out a lot in that regard.

I think he's already in the discussion for best ever, but only having 1 ring will be used as a knock against him by some, fair or not.[/quote]

If Manning wins the superbowl this year and plays well he will be number 2 for me, right behind Montana. Joe Montana has that Michael Jordan feel to him in championships where he was just perfect.

Right now its just him and Brady for the modern quarterbacks in terms of "best ever". And the only knock on Manning is he has a losing record in the playoffs, and every year people pick his team and he gets knocked out the first game of the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he has the most "one and dones" out of any quarterback in NFL history. And now everyone is jumping on the Broncos as superbowl favorites again this year, just like the old Colts. Its hard to overlook that.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=donofriose;1015376]If Manning wins the superbowl this year and plays well he will be number 2 for me, right behind Montana. Joe Montana has that Michael Jordan feel to him in championships where he was just perfect.

Right now its just him and Brady for the modern quarterbacks in terms of "best ever". And the only knock on Manning is he has a losing record in the playoffs, and every year people pick his team and he gets knocked out the first game of the playoffs. I'm pretty sure he has the most "one and dones" out of any quarterback in NFL history. And now everyone is jumping on the Broncos as superbowl favorites again this year, just like the old Colts. Its hard to overlook that.[/quote]


Why not Ben Roethlisberger and Eli both have more Super Bowls?

[QUOTE=Giantone;1015380]Why not Ben Roethlisberger and Eli both have more Super Bowls?[/QUOTE]

Eli has led the league twice in INTS.

But I'm not a Eli hater I do think he's a top 10 QB in today's league

I understand CB, we all have our own opinions, that's what makes the QB debate what it is. Someone mentioned peyton as the best? I think a losing playoff record really hurts him, that shows he isn't all that clutch if u look at stats and Wins and losses.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015381]Eli has led the league twice in INTS.

But I'm not a Eli hater I do think he's a top 10 QB in today's league[/quote]Top 5 , my 5 Brady ,Rogers ,Brees ,Roethlisberger , Eli , Peyton is 6 to me playoffs and super bowls are what it is about.


Again here is the question is it regular season or post season play that matters. As for INTs so what Bret Farve led the league 3 times in 93 , 05, 08 it's what happens when you work with young receiver's or a new O .

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1015324]You're contradicting yourself.[/quote]

How so? It's not like I think Jaws doesn't understand the QB spot or doesn't know what to look for. It's just that Jaws isn't very critical of QBs like a Steve Young might be (or Boomer). He likes to put his biases in his lists and it shows. That's why I said those lists of his are nothing but bullshit.

[QUOTE=Giantone;1015391]Top 5 , my 5 Brady ,Rogers ,Brees ,Roethlisberger , Eli , Peyton is 6 to me playoffs and super bowls are what it is about.


Again here is the question is it regular season or post season play that matters. As for INTs so what Bret Farve led the league 3 times in 93 , 05, 08 it's what happens when you work with young receiver's or a new O .[/QUOTE]

I know your a giants fan but can u really say u would take Eli over Peyton? I think Eli is pretty dang good but peyton is elite. He gets 12 wins a year.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015398]I know your a giants fan but can u really say u would take Eli over Peyton? I think Eli is pretty dang good but peyton is elite. He gets 12 wins a year.[/quote]

IMO Peyton is beyond elite. He's the best ever. I know this is debatable.

It certainly is fair to argue that postseason success is a requirement for elite status, as Giantone has done.

But it also is fair to argue that you can't be considered elite if you are a turnover machine, as Favre was and Eli is sometimes. Okie, you have a good argument.

Let's also look at it this way.. when was the last time we had a top 13 QB?

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=Giantone;1015391]Top 5 , my 5 Brady ,Rogers ,Brees ,Roethlisberger , Eli , Peyton is 6 to me [B]playoffs and super bowls are what it is about.[/B]


Again here is the question is it regular season or post season play that matters. As for INTs so what Bret Farve led the league 3 times in 93 , 05, 08 it's what happens when you work with young receiver's or a new O .[/quote]

And here is the problem with this discussion. To much of it is about the rest of the team, just the credit is given to the QB. If we are rating based on winning SB's, then Trent Dilfer rates higher than Dan Marino. Other than a few Ravens homers, who in their right mind would ever take Dilfer over Marino?

Rothlisberger won 2 SB's on the back of the best defense in the game at the time (look at his SB stats, they arent that good). Brady won two SB's with a good defense, hasnt won anything since the Pats defense became average at best. That doesnt mean Brady has declined, it means the team he plays on has.

A QB that can lead an offense to 40 points a game but his defense gives up 50 is going to get a lower rating in this whole thing than than a QB who can lead an offense to 17 points a game but has a defense that only gives up 10 a game.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

Top 5 right now, IMO:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Joe Flacco

I could have gone a lot of different routes for that last spot. Matt Ryan, Eli, and Big Ben. I eliminated Ryan because he's only won 1 playoff game in his 5 years in the league, and he throws to a Hall of Fame TE, and two Pro Bowl WRs. Eli had a decent year last year. He's 2/2 in Super Bowls, but he also throws lots of picks. Big Ben is very good, but when he gets hurt (which is quiet often) his team doesn't do as well, but yet still good enough to win games. Its not like a Peyton Manning where that team crumbles. Also Big Ben may have 2 super bowl rings, but he was awful in his first super bowl, and in his 3rd super bowl appearance his turnovers were ultimately the difference from his team winning and losing. Flacco has always been a good QB, but last year he really did well and come playoff time he outperformed Brady for a 2nd year in a row. In the Super Bowl this year he played better than Brady, either Manning, Brees and very comparable than Rodgers did in their respective super bowl appearances.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015401]Let's also look at it this way.. when was the last time we had a top 13 QB?[/quote]Brad Johnson, 1999.

And LMAO at the suggestion Eli > Peyton. :laughing2

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1015393]How so? It's not like I think Jaws doesn't understand the QB spot or doesn't know what to look for. It's just that Jaws isn't very critical of QBs like a Steve Young might be (or Boomer). He likes to put his biases in his lists and it shows. That's why I said those lists of his are nothing but bullshit.[/quote]

Ok.

[QUOTE=CultBrennan59;1015403]Top 5 right now, IMO:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Joe Flacco

I could have gone a lot of different routes for that last spot. Matt Ryan, Eli, and Big Ben. I eliminated Ryan because he's only won 1 playoff game in his 5 years in the league, and he throws to a Hall of Fame TE, and two Pro Bowl WRs. Eli had a decent year last year. He's 2/2 in Super Bowls, but he also throws lots of picks. Big Ben is very good, but when he gets hurt (which is quiet often) his team doesn't do as well, but yet still good enough to win games. Its not like a Peyton Manning where that team crumbles. Also Big Ben may have 2 super bowl rings, but he was awful in his first super bowl, and in his 3rd super bowl appearance his turnovers were ultimately the difference from his team winning and losing. Flacco has always been a good QB, but last year he really did well and come playoff time he outperformed Brady for a 2nd year in a row. In the Super Bowl this year he played better than Brady, either Manning, Brees and very comparable than Rodgers did in their respective super bowl appearances.[/QUOTE]

U and I will always see different on this lol. Btw Joe is not a top 5 QB, he got hot in the playoffs but overall he's not better than Ben or Eli. Joe had the worst ever QBR last year against Houston and he also threw for like 25 yards in a playoff game a few yrs back.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1015404]Brad Johnson, 1999.

[B]And LMAO at the suggestion Eli > Peyton.[/B] :laughing2[/quote]

I agree with this. It's so laughably ridiculous to think Eli is even anywhere close to Peyton. But then, Giantone is biased...

Brad was pretty good that yr.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015413]Brad was pretty good that yr.[/quote]

60.9%, 4,005 yards, 24 TDs, 13 INTs, 90.0 rating. If only he would have kept that up the next year. Instead:

62.5%, 2,505 yards, 11 TDs, 15 INTs, 75.7 rating.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=SirLK26;1015414]60.9%, 4,005 yards, 24 TDs, 13 INTs, 90.0 rating. If only he would have kept that up the next year. Instead:

62.5%, 2,505 yards, 11 TDs, 15 INTs, 75.7 rating.[/quote]Yeah. I blame the debacle the next season partially on Snyder making the team into a "dream team" circus with all the high profile free agents he brought in. And Brad was hurt that year. But you're right it seemed like things really came together that one year 1999.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015409]U and I will always see different on this lol. Btw Joe is not a top 5 QB, he got hot in the playoffs but overall he's not better than Ben or Eli. Joe had the worst ever QBR last year against Houston and he also threw for like 25 yards in a playoff game a few yrs back.[/quote]

Keep in mind I'm talking last year and going into this year.

Sorry Joe f is not top 5.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

Joe flacco's postseason performance was on par with the best quarterbacks of all time. He outplayed Manning, Brady and the "great" Andrew Luck, plus the Raven's defense was not that good this past year.
His Super Bowl performance was on par with Rodgers vs. Steelers, Brady vs. Panthers, and any of the other elite quarterbacks. So someone putting him in the top 5 is understandable. Quarterbacks are just opinions anyway. It is like Brady vs Peyton. Half of you guys will take Peyton while the other half will take Brady. Just depends on what your opinion is. Can't go wrong either way.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1015406]Ok.[/quote]

I misread you often so is this a "ok" in my clarification of Jaw's list or a "ok.....but I think you're wrong"? :laughing-

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

Ok. As in I get what you meant. It came across initially as "Jaws liked Campbell so what does he know about QBs. I'm not saying he doesn't know anything about QBs, but this list of his about QBs just goes to show you he knows nothing about QBs"

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown Listma
 

I gotta admit, I am annoyed by everyone putting him last out of the four.

He did something that was remarkable and healthy it's not even close who the better guy is. I hope we get to see him back full go this year, and that can be the only reason he hasn't made the leap in analysts minds to the clear number one. I don't see how you put Wilson ahead of him, Luck, and even Kap if we see our guy healthy.

He was the only one of the true rookies to win his division, and in the manner in which he had to do it. The other teams all had a much better defenses then the Redskins, and comparing the 10-6 record of the Redskins to the 11-5 record of both the Seahawks and the Colts doesn't matter to me b/c the teams don't play the same schedule.

Griffin was the only one who had a rookie RB, and was far and away the most effient passer in the TD to INT department. Back to my point, in that III and Morris had to led the team and sparked to rest of the team to perform. They didn't have the luxury of a trustworthy or even respectable at times defense.

Anyway I truly hope that RG III sees all this stuff and uses it as billboard material to even further motivate himself to be that much better. I dont know if he needs any more motivation then he already has but i hope it fire him up some privately. I believ we haven't seen anything from him yet and when it all comes together he will be amazing.

HTTR!

BTW Luck and Wilson are good football players, but it is hard to compare any of thier careers at this point being that they have all only played in a limited sample size.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1015398]I know your a giants fan but can u really say u would take Eli over Peyton? I think Eli is pretty dang good but peyton is elite. He gets 12 wins a year.[/quote]

And Eli has won 2 super bowl MVPs coming out of the NFC.His playoff record is better than Peytons

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=SirLK26;1015411]I agree with this. It's so laughably ridiculous to think Eli is even anywhere close to Peyton. But then, Giantone is biased...[/quote]




Why is Peyton better, count the playoffs and superbowls .

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

All such lists are far too subjective to suit me. The biggest problem with Jaws' list is that he doesn't state his criteria up front and then stick with it. He does refer to traits such as pocket passing ability and durability in his analysis which I can accept as areas for improvement and concern, respectively, for RGIII. Nevertheless, if anyone is qualified to rate QB's it is Jaws. He has played the position in the NFL and he does his homework.

I strongly agree with Giantone that the proof for any QB is winning. To me that means leading your team to multiple playoff appearances, winning playoff games, and ultimately winning Super Bowls.

As for RGIII, the bottom line for me is that I don't care where Jaws or anyone else ranks RGIII right now because he was just a rookie last season. Come back after a couple more seasons and let's see what he has done by then.

Make no mistake, I'm a huge RGIII proponent. I think that RGIII is the right QB and leader for this team. In fact, I think that he is practically the perfect QB for the Redskins based on what the Shanahans want to do on offense. But he still has much more learning and work to do to reach his full potential in the position. The great news for Redskins fans is that, with RGIII's exceptional physical gifts, mental acuity, work habits, and leadership skills, there is no ceiling in sight.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=Giantone;1015464]Why is Peyton better, count the playoffs and superbowls .[/quote]

In the regular season it's not even close, Peyton by a mile.

Playoff records are definitely a factor, and I give Eli a lot more credit to him in the postseason. He has been the benefactor of some pretty miraculous plays in the playoffs as well.

So I have to say that Peyton is the greatest regular season QB of all time.

Eli is good but not consistently good enough to be considered as good as his brother.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

[quote=Giantone;1015463]And Eli has won 2 super bowl MVPs coming out of the NFC.His playoff record is better than Peytons[/quote]


Eli is also better than Dan Marino. :pffff: :Flush:

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

It's silly to put him last out of the four based on last year. It just is. Now add the knee in and I get why Jaws moved him down at first glance. The more I think on it though my logic says if the knee is enough to move him down under those guys then why exactly are you implying? Are you questioning whether his knee will allow to function similarly to hs past performance or are you questioning whether his knee will keep him out? If it's the former then I think you're nuts. If it's the later then I think you ranked him too high. The ranking doesn't make sense because of that.

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

Jaws ranked RG3 13TH.

NFLN Ranked him like 6th .

Re: ESPN Unveils 2013 Jaws’ QB Countdown List
 

The "winning" QB argument is bogus. 100%. There are 11 players on the field for a team on each offensive play. The QB is obviously the MOST important player of the 11 but he doesn't achieve success or failure alone. Since you can't ascribe 100% of the success/failure to the QB you can't treat overall success/failure as the sole component. Winning QBs don't have some magic power that other QBs don't have...they have a better team. They get no individual credit for that.

As a fan of a competing team I'd rather chalk the Giants success up to one miraculous and unbeatable QB but it isn't true. Their FO is good at building a team and their coach got his head out of his ass and figured out how to coach it before he got canned. They also happen to have a good QB. But he isn't better than at least 4 other QBs in league during his tenure. Including his brother. 2-1 in SBs or not.