Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Coles is gone; the Skins might have handled the siutation a bit more adroitly, but nothing's going to change that now.

Here's are a couple of things I want to know:

How does anyone here know that Coles was unceremoniously ushered out of New York by the Jets? To hear Danny the Great tell it - and to hear Warpath posters revel in it - the Redskins swooped in and took away that horribly valuable asset from the cheapskate Jets' ownership. Why did the Jets take him back? Maybe they really didn't want to lose him in the first place...


How do we know that Joe Gibbs listens to his players and takes input from them about play calls and game plans? Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't; maybe he pretends to listen but ignores whatever players tell him and goes on his merry way. For the record, I'd much prefer to have the coaches worry about the game plan and then take some input from players as the game is progressing as the players report back on things the opposition is doing out there on the field. But I'm not the coach here so my way of doing things just doesn't matter a whole lot...

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Matty - Coles proved to me he was a good player and a nice guy.

Gibbs while being a nice guy and a good leader has yet to show me anything, in this milenium, that resembles a great offense. Gibbs kept saying during the season he had to make changes, he didn't. He blamed the WR, he had the #2 defense most of the year, you should be able to win games when you have a defense playing like that.

I don't dislike Gibbs at all, and I would rip Spurrier from time to time too. Overall I think he was a great coach with a bad rap and he treated them too loosely at first and was never able to regain control.

When I went to Thanksgiving my... grandmothers brother (whatever that is to me) who has been in DC for his whole life since the Redskins got there, and who used to be a fan, but has since left told me Gibbs was the most overrated coach ever. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the exact facts, but it made since. Winning in strike years with great personel directors throughout his career. I battled him about it the whole time, but he did make good points. I never brought it up because I don't have the facts quickly at my advantage to argue with you guys, so it's really not worth it. I'm just saying he made some very solid points about Gibbs.

While I don't believe that, I don't feel Gibbs has done the job on offense he needs to do. Like every coach he has three years to improve the team, or at least his portion of it, the offense. You guys keep pulling up the past, that's well and good - he was a great coach then, however it's now and he has shown me very little to back thus far. If you guys were basing him on a first year coach I'm sure many more people would be on my side of the fence. I'm not saying can him, but if the offense is anything like last year - time to hire a coordinator.

Gibbs has great qualities as a coach and can lead men - but people need to stop living off his reputation and see if he can still coach. If he can't, then I wouldn't be suprised, but I wouldn't think he wasn't a good coach. He's exactly what I like in terms of a man, if he can get his playcalling up to snuff I'll be happy with him, otherwise he's just another mediocre coach. Does it diminish what he once did? Absolutely not. I think that the game of football has evolved a lot since even the 80's. I think the old Steelers teams would be crushed by some of the play today. Guys are bigger, smarter, faster, and schemes are more advanced. Just my two cents.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Coles a nice guy? How do you come to that conclusion?

As for Gibbs I think it's a little premature to write his legacy for his second run. He has [u]one season[/u] under his belt after over a decade away from the game. People were writing him off half way through last season, that's just ridiculous. A few years from now I'd like to see where this conversation leads us.

Let's at least give him one more season before we start to question his coaching abilities. 2004 was a season full of adjustments for him, and I think he would be the first to admit that. Let's give the man a chance.

You say he blamed the WR, but you left out the fact he always blames himself first and foremost.

As for Gibbs being the most overrated coach ever, that's laughable but it's one person's opinion.

I don't see how winning during strike years is a negative. You still have to qualify for the playoffs and win in January. If anything it was impressive how he was able to hold the team unified, especially in '87. He even guided a scab team to a 3-0 record and they beat the Cowboys with several players who crossed the line.

Then there was also '91 when they were one of the best overall teams in the history of the league, no strike that year.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Matty, first of all I certainly didn't write him off. I've said plenty of times he has three years, which is an acceptable time frame to get everything together. Like every other coach who comes in, 3 years, do you disagree with that. Just assume in three years we're still the bottom 1/4 of offenses in the league, will you still staunchly defend him?

The problem with 2004 was it WASN'T full of adjustments. What adjustments during the year did we make to improve the offense? The answer is nearly none. We'd find something that worked (zone blocking) then abandon it the next week. That's the scary part for me.

Did or didn't Gibbs win in a weakened league thanks to strike, etc? Did he or did he not out personel most other coaches? Not necessarily bad, but still interesting. As I said, it's not my argument to make because I don't have sufficient information to make those claims.

How is Coles a bad guy? You were yelling at me for telling him he needs surgery and all about him three weeks ago, what happened, Matty? He's still the same person, he's shown me nothing bad about his personallity. He asked to be released, players do this all the time, does it make them evil? Why should he help a team that threatened him right before he left, why not get his money from the Jets?

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Coles a nice guy? How do you come to that conclusion?

As for Gibbs I think it's a little premature to write his legacy for his second run. He has [u]one season[/u] under his belt after over a decade away from the game. People were writing him off half way through last season, that's just ridiculous. A few years from now I'd like to see where this conversation leads us.

Let's at least give him one more season before we start to question his coaching abilities. 2004 was a season full of adjustments for him, and I think he would be the first to admit that. Let's give the man a chance.

You say he blamed the WR, but you left out the fact he always blames himself first and foremost.

As for Gibbs being the most overrated coach ever, that's laughable but it's one person's opinion.

I don't see how winning during strike years is a negative. You still have to qualify for the playoffs and win in January. If anything it was impressive how he was able to hold the team unified, especially in '87. He even guided a scab team to a 3-0 record and they beat the Cowboys with several players who crossed the line.

Then there was also '91 when they were one of the best overall teams in the history of the league, no strike that year.[/QUOTE]

Great points Matty I would also just like to add that he is in the top three in NFL history in winning percentage in the regular season behind only Madden and Lombardi. And second in Playoff winning percentage. If that isnt a good coach then I dont know what is. Finally I would like anyone to leave a job for 12 years and come back to it and see how they fair initially.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

As Matty says, Gibbs went 3-0 with a team full of "scab" players and the Skins played a Cowboys team during that team that had many key players cross the line. To say that he won in a weakened league, to me, implies that the Redskins had some sort of advantage over all the other teams.

If it was "weakened" it was weakened across the board, including the Redskins

And 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs is pretty impressive, at least I think so.

Daseal, Matty was yelling at you? Really?

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Lets see if i can get this right!

Gibbs-3 SUPER BOWL wins

Coles- 0 apperances

Who to you is more proven to lead a team Gibbs or Coles? You decide

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

I don't use yell in the traditional sense, not saying he's being rude or impatient. Just meant he's talking at me!

As I said before, I can't make a valid argument because I don't have all the facts.

Monk-Fan - stop living in the past. Coles wins last season - 6. Gibbs wins last season - 6. Games Coles lost for us - 0. Games Gibbs lost for us - 4-7

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]As Matty says, Gibbs went 3-0 with a team full of "scab" players and the Skins played a Cowboys team during that team that had many key players cross the line. To say that he won in a weakened league, to me, implies that the Redskins had some sort of advantage over all the other teams.

If it was "weakened" it was weakened across the board, including the Redskins

And 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs is pretty impressive, at least I think so.

Daseal, Matty was yelling at you? Really?[/QUOTE]

Gibbs did an amazing job with the "replacement" players. The weakened league argument is lame. Phil Jackson did the same thing with my Spurs put an asterisk after the Spurs 99 championship...well someone still has to win the championship during these lockout/strike times.....when you don't play as many games or play with replacements it makes consistency even more difficult, more work for the coaches, and players.............These championships STILL count!!!! HAIL TO THE REDSKINS AND GO SPURS GO :headbange

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=Monksdown]Off topic a bit. But lets trade Brunell to the Texans for Charlie Casserly. I see two positives here. We maintain the ongoing goal of making sure that the state of Texas never has a decent football program again. And we get our boy back.[/QUOTE]

:laughing2 ....hey it could work afterall didn't Snyder call Cass and apologize said he fired the wrong guy.......But unfortunately, I don't think your plan would work Monksdown, not all football owners are as stupid as Jerry "Facelift" Jones, the Texans owner is an intelligent man and wouldn't go for it..........too bad because we need to replace Vince ;)

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Games Coles lost for us - 0. Games Gibbs lost for us - 4-7[/QUOTE]
That's a ridiculous statement. 4-7 games lost for us? You show your bias and ignorance with such an asanine statement.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Unless you were in the locker room before,during and after a game you'll never know how much damage Coles did. I believe he was a negative instead of the positive we all got to see publicly.

We know now that he didn't like Coach Gibbs' gameplan. Not much of a stretch to see him disrupting things.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Matty, first of all I certainly didn't write him off. I've said plenty of times he has three years, which is an acceptable time frame to get everything together. Like every other coach who comes in, 3 years, do you disagree with that. Just assume in three years we're still the bottom 1/4 of offenses in the league, will you still staunchly defend him?

The problem with 2004 was it WASN'T full of adjustments. What adjustments during the year did we make to improve the offense? The answer is nearly none. We'd find something that worked (zone blocking) then abandon it the next week. That's the scary part for me.

Did or didn't Gibbs win in a weakened league thanks to strike, etc? Did he or did he not out personel most other coaches? Not necessarily bad, but still interesting. As I said, it's not my argument to make because I don't have sufficient information to make those claims.

How is Coles a bad guy? You were yelling at me for telling him he needs surgery and all about him three weeks ago, what happened, Matty? He's still the same person, he's shown me nothing bad about his personallity. He asked to be released, players do this all the time, does it make them evil? Why should he help a team that threatened him right before he left, why not get his money from the Jets?[/QUOTE]

So there were no adjustments for Gibbs coming back to the league after being away since '91?? He didn't have to adjust to the shorter play clock, new defenses, a team full of new players, a new owner, a new media that follows your every word, the salary cap, free agency, etc. I'd say those are a few adjustments he had to make.

As for him winning in a weakened league, how were the Redskins somehow not weakened as well? Like I said, you still have to win enough games to get into the playoffs in a strike year, and you still have to win games in January. Sorry but saying Gibbs is the most overrated coach ever is a pretty weak statement.

I've never said Coles is a good guy or a bad guy for that matter. I don't know him personally so I don't know if he's a saint or a jerk. I have heard that he's not the nicest guy when fans have met him in public, but that's just hearsay so I'm not going to judge him based on rumors. Frankly I don't care if he's a nice guy or not, that's really not the issue. All I know is he didn't want to be a Redskin any longer, so sorry if my support of him has disappeared.

However, based on his comments he seems to be more concerned with his personal stats over team accomplishments, and that's the kind of player I won't miss the least bit. I'd rather have a lesser talented WR who wants to be here than a more talented guy who's pouting over his stats. And I'm not even sure the difference in talent level between Moss and Coles is that significant. Yes Coles is the more accomplished player, but Moss is no slouch and has had some injury problems. When he's healthy he's arguably [i]more[/i] explosive than Coles.

As for me yelling at you about the surgery thing, I'm not sure what you're talking about or what your point is. I haven't changed my tune and said he now needs the surgery, have I?

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

Daseal, I know you're not a big fan of Gibbs' 3 SB wins or Hall of Fame bust, but by totally dismissing his accomplishments you're missing the point here.

The point is Gibbs has the majority of the fans' trust. If he's not raked over the coals by the media to the level you think he should be, it's probably because he's proven himself to us already. We're willing to let things slide and let him get acclimated to the NFL again. Fair or unfair, that's the way it is.

I don't think anybody here is unaware of the fact he didn't do a great job with the offense last year. If there are blind supporters they are few and far between. I have repeatedly said he didn't do a good job last year and he needs to improve. But I'm not going to take every shot I can at him in the meantime like it seems you do.

Perhaps you're still a little bitter about your boy Spurrier and the lousy job he did here. Now you're taking your shots back at the Gibbs fans. There's nothing wrong with being critical, but you come off as someone who is finding some joy in ripping on Gibbs every chance you get. I really don't recall you being this critical of Spurrier at all. I know you'll say you were critical of him too and I don't doubt that, but I don't care what you say you definitely did not take shots at him on a regular basis like you do with Gibbs now.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's the impression I get, and your support of Coles seems to be yet another lame shot at Gibbs.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I don't use yell in the traditional sense, not saying he's being rude or impatient. Just meant he's talking at me!

As I said before, I can't make a valid argument because I don't have all the facts.

Monk-Fan - stop living in the past. Coles wins last season - 6. Gibbs wins last season - 6. Games Coles lost for us - 0. Games Gibbs lost for us - 4-7[/QUOTE]


You keep on telling people to stop living in the past. Where you even born when Gibbs was here? No you weren't so don't blame us for believing in him.

You love to take shots at us for following Gibbs, but who else are we supposed to follow? Spurrier? Please he QUIT!

Excuse my french, but Daseal get your head out of your ass.

Re: One last thing about Coles...
 

I couldn't be more with Matty on this whole Coles v. Gibbs debate. I mean really, Daseal, are you serious? You're arguments about Gibbs being the most overrated coach in history are completely nonsensical. And I know you continually throw out the disclaimer that "it's not my argument to make because I don't have sufficient information to make those claims". Suggestion then: if it's not your argument to make, Don't try to make it. Just because your great uncle convinced you some time ago with arguments you can't even remember now, doesn't mean you're going to sway anyone in this forum. One of the highest winning percentages in NFL history, 3 rings, what more do you want? As I recall it, the NFL wasn't on strike for the vast majority of Gibbs's wins. If your great uncle would like to post his argument, I'm sure many of us in this forum would be more than happy to go toe-to-toe with his arguments. Really, I'm not trying to get personal here, but I just can't imagine any skins fan making such statements about the man who brought us our glory years. I live in Philly, and even Eagles fans don't try making that argument......and that's saying something.

As for the rediculous amount of criticism I see on this site against Gibbs (presumably because he didn't win us a Super Bowl in his first year back in over a decade), can I please remind everyone that it's been ONE year so far (this isn't specific to Daseal.....I know you said 3 years is acceptable).

As for Coles: Good ridence. It's not like he doesn't have a history of questionable behavior. Nice guy? Why? What basis does anyone have to say that Coles is a nice guy? And lest not forget that we are talking about a guy who demanded to be traded because he just couldn't stand to be a Redskin anymore because that darn HALL OF FAME coach didn't call plays the way Laverneous Coles wanted them called, WHILE he was being paid as an elite receiver in the NFL. A guy that then forced his new team to renegotiate a new deal with him or he would hold out because the contract he signed two years ago that made him one of the highest paid WRs in the history of the NFL just wasn't good enough anymore? Seriously, people, why are we defending poor, unappreciated, life's-not-fair, Coles? Boo Hoo for him and his 9 million dollars a year. Poor guy came up short on yardage and TD catches.......and after all, what's more important to Laverneous Coles than Laverneous Coles's stats. I'll take anyone over a player like that.