Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1028691]Didn't say "bad" just "Not so Good". I understand you can debate TW vs. Okung. But what you can't debate is TW had questionable work ethic, which was confirmed by OU staff and in his Bench numbers (23 reps for a top-rated LT ain't good).

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/the-main-knock-against-left.html"]Redskins Insider - Trent Williams' potential: an assessment from Oklahoma[/URL]

If you look at TW today, he still has a "soft" body and that drug suspension shows lack of discipline as well.[/quote]

You could argue he is the best player on this team.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=redskins5044;1028675]You can argue TW and McNabb as bad FO decisions. But the Carlos Rogers and Landry moves IMO weren't bad moves, we werent going to pay Rogers what he wanted and he didnt want to be here anymore. He never proved himself here, and Landry was injured too often and when he didnt get offseason surgery they werent going to pay him either. So hindsight is 50/50 lol on those.[/quote]The Rogers situation could've possible been resolved if handled differently. I don't have any inside info, but I believe if the Coaching staff and FO had shown him a little more, he would've stayed for a reasonable contract. I would argue that he was a very solid tackling & cover corner, but his hands were the issue.

Landry didn't sign a ridiculous contract with the Jets, we could've worked this one out as well IMHO.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=mredskins;1028709]You could argue he is the best player on this team.[/quote]Not with what I've seen from him so far in 2013, not even close.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1028710]The Rogers situation could've possible been resolved if handled differently. I don't have any inside info, but I believe if the Coaching staff and FO had shown him a little more, he would've stayed for a reasonable contract. I would argue that he was a very solid tackling & cover corner, but his hands were the issue.

Landry didn't sign a ridiculous contract with the Jets, we could've worked this one out as well IMHO.[/quote]

Shanny and Co have never gotten the secondary straight. Tough to argue otherwise. Ill always be pissed about Rogers...but Landry isnt a great talent, but still better than we got now.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1028710]The Rogers situation could've possible been resolved if handled differently. I don't have any inside info, but I believe if the Coaching staff and FO had shown him a little more, he would've stayed for a reasonable contract. I would argue that he was a very solid tackling & cover corner, but his hands were the issue.

Landry didn't sign a ridiculous contract with the Jets, we could've worked this one out as well IMHO.[/quote]

If we did resign Rogers who would you not be paying right now? Same for Landry. I would agree Landry right now is an upgrade from what we have at safety but there is no way he signs an incentive laden contract with the Redskins, he signed that because he had no other options.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1028691]Didn't say "bad" just "Not so Good". I understand you can debate TW vs. Okung. But what you can't debate is TW had questionable work ethic, which was confirmed by OU staff and in his Bench numbers (23 reps for a top-rated LT ain't good).

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/the-main-knock-against-left.html]Redskins Insider - Trent Williams' potential: an assessment from Oklahoma[/url]

If you look at TW today, he still has a "soft" body and that drug suspension shows lack of discipline as well.[/quote]

C'mon man. By all accounts, the suspension was a serious wake up call to him. Since that time, he has - according to the accounts I have read - changed considerably. You want to say he has a "soft" body? Fine, but the guy is a warrior.

[url=http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/64461/trent-williams-and-a-new-kind-of-pride]Trent Williams and a new kind of pride - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN[/url]

[url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/redskins-lt-williams-making-up-for-suspension/article/2509713#.UGyIapiHKSo]Redskins LT Williams making up for suspension | WashingtonExaminer.com[/url]

Re: Turnaround Time
 

I feel like we need a spotlight thread.

Every week it's a different player that this thread wants to hate on..

T. Williams is an awesome player, and outside a bad half this year he's been solid his whole career.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Bucket;1028721]I feel like we need a spotlight thread.

Every week it's a different player that this thread wants to hate on..

T. Williams is an awesome player, and outside a bad half this year he's been solid his whole career.[/quote]

This thread is brand new.

Trent is our best o lineman and the least of our worries, right?

Per Rogers and Landry, the FO handled them poorly. This regime (Shanny) has a knack for turning a cold shoulder to players, which isn't an indictment in and of itself when the team is disciplined, prepared etc. I'm thinking of Belichick here, willing to cut or trade a player cold but that team buys in year after year. SHANNY DOES NOT GET THE BUY IN. I don't know how anyone can see it another way. This team is not disciplined, prepared, highly motivated or any of the things you see on a well coached team.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1028717]C'mon man. By all accounts, the suspension was a serious wake up call to him. Since that time, he has - according to the accounts I have read - changed considerably. You want to say he has a "soft" body? Fine, but the guy is a warrior.

[URL="http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/64461/trent-williams-and-a-new-kind-of-pride"]Trent Williams and a new kind of pride - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN[/URL]

[URL="http://washingtonexaminer.com/redskins-lt-williams-making-up-for-suspension/article/2509713#.UGyIapiHKSo"]Redskins LT Williams making up for suspension | WashingtonExaminer.com[/URL][/quote]This isn't just directed at you, but also others who jump on anything negative said about TW. I'm not saying the guy is garbage, I'm saying he's not playing up to the expectations of the #4 overall pick.

Yes he made the Pro Bowl last year, I believe that was due to the success of the last 7 games of the season and due to the RO and Ds not being able to quickly gameplan a counter for it giving us stats in the ground game. Is TW a top-10 LT? Is he better than: Okung, Joe Thomas, Clady, B. Albert, Duane Brown, Jake Long, Joe Staley, Vollmer, Bushrod, Kalil?

What makes this guy such a "warrior"? He has incredible raw physical gifts, but hasn't developed into a dominant LT. From what I've seen so far this year, this guy is just making blocks with a stalemate, not clearing holes and finishing. At times he's just as lost as everyone else out there. Is he our best O-Lineman, yes. Is that saying a great deal......?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1028714]If we did resign Rogers who would you not be paying right now? Same for Landry. I would agree Landry right now is an upgrade from what we have at safety but there is no way he signs an incentive laden contract with the Redskins, he signed that because he had no other options.[/quote]If we resigned Rogers, Hall or Wilson would likely be the nickel and Amerson on the other side of Rogers.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

I don't know enough about the Landry situation.

Rogers wasn't happy from the day he got here. The team did more than enough to keep him. But when he decided to go for broke (because he was broke) it backfired on him when only one team showed any interest (for just a one year deal)

As for Trent Williams, I'm not convinced we'd be better off with Okung, who seems to be the guy he's most often compared to (for good reason)

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1028711]Not with what I've seen from him so far in 2013, not even close.[/quote]

Ok.......then who is the best in 2013?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1028737]I don't know enough about the Landry situation.

[B]Rogers wasn't happy from the day he got here. The team did more than enough to keep him. But when he decided to go for broke (because he was broke) it backfired on him when only one team showed any interest (for just a one year deal)[/B]

As for Trent Williams, I'm not convinced we'd be better off with Okung, who seems to be the guy he's most often compared to (for good reason)[/quote]

I didn't know that about Rogers but completely trust your knowledge of the situation. Did he have any reason for being unhappy from day 1?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=mredskins;1028739]Ok.......then who is the best in 2013?[/quote]

Pierre Garcon and Perry Riley.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=The Goat;1028744]I didn't know that about Rogers but completely trust your knowledge of the situation. Did he have any reason for being unhappy from day 1?[/quote]

Probably someone coming in with much less talent (D Hall), playing 8 games and then receiving a 55 million dollar deal. Vinny and Danny strike again.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=mredskins;1028739]Ok.......then who is the best in 2013?[/quote]Kerrigan, possibly Garcon.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Chico23231;1028748]Probably someone coming in with much less talent (D Hall), playing 8 games and then receiving a 55 million dollar deal. Vinny and Danny strike again.[/quote]

Not really. Some people just aren't happy in places. He got here, didn't like it here. You've never gone somewhere (whether a new job, same job new location, heck even vacation) and just said "I don't like it here" and then been miserable until you could get out?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1028751]Not really. Some people just aren't happy in places. He got here, didn't like it here. You've never gone somewhere (whether a new job, same job new location, heck even vacation) and just said "I don't like it here" and then been miserable until you could get out?[/quote]

If I were making millions to play a game, I wouldn't complain if I got shipped off to Buffalo. I'd learn to like snow.

Not putting in full effort at anything you do is unacceptable whatever the reason. You can always work your way out of a situation but getting yourself fired so you can go somewhere else isn't the way to do it.

If we had signed Carlos or LaRon again...those big years when they went elsewhere probably would not have happened. I can especially see Landry saying "I can do no wrong, they won't cut me" and proceed playing another 6-game season instead of 16 games and a Pro Bowl like with the Jets.

It's frustrating to see guys go elsewhere and suddenly learn how to catch the ball or just stay healthy, but we're better off not taking a SECOND gamble on these kinds of guys who have either attitude or work ethic problems.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1028751]Not really. Some people just aren't happy in places. He got here, didn't like it here. You've never gone somewhere (whether a new job, same job new location, heck even vacation) and just said "I don't like it here" and then been miserable until you could get out?[/quote]

sure. Just strange, so he never negotiated to stay? didnt know that, thanks. It happens in sports too I imagine.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Chico23231;1028761]sure. Just strange, so he never negotiated to stay? didnt know that, thanks. It happens in sports too I imagine.[/quote]

He did, or at least his agent did. And it seemed they were close. But then Rogers came back with a counter offer that was so outrageous that I think most everyone involved realized that he had decided he was going to put the Redskins in a position where they would have no choice but to let him walk.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000250860/article/antoine-winfield-reportedly-will-consider-nfl-return]Antoine Winfield reportedly will consider NFL return - NFL.com[/url]

Wonder if we should bring him in for a physical?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Bucket;1028827][URL="http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000250860/article/antoine-winfield-reportedly-will-consider-nfl-return"]Antoine Winfield reportedly will consider NFL return - NFL.com[/URL]

Wonder if we should bring him in for a physical?[/quote]


I was wondering the same thing when I saw that article.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

^ Winfield doesn't want to play on a loser team. If towards the end of season and we are 2-10- why wouldn't we bring up Chase and evaluate him for next year?

Re: Turnaround Time
 

What ever happened to Kerry Rhodes? Doesn't look like he signed with the Giants. I would be more interested in him, frankly.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

I've waited a bit before I came in here with my thoughts. I believe Mike is still a top notch coach when it comes to the offensive side of the football. You probably won't find a better mind when it comes down to it. Unfortunately for him, he's probably the right coach at the wrong time. Let's review some of the road blocks he's had to deal with:

2010- Inherits oldest team in league with salary cap issues.
2010- Unable to gain any decents FA due to restricted FA market in uncapped year.

2011- Lockout forces delay of TC and free agency.
2011- Penalized 38 million salary cap hours before the start of free agency. 18 mil applied this year.

2012- 18 million salary cap penalty

That in and of itself is hard for any coach to overcome. I'm not sure I would have even walked up in this mess to begin with, but something tells me he has the ego to think he can undo it all.


Fast forward to 3 years later. Even with all that has hampered the initial rebuilding, Mike apparently got it right in the fact we had the talent on this team to win our division last year. Are there other teams with more talent? Most definitely. Are we capable of competing and winning our division again? Most definitely. So that leaves us with the question.....why aren't we?

I think, bottom line, this comes down to coaching. It takes a good coach to realize when he needs to replace a broken cog in the wheel, and to instill discipline in players on the field. What we have seen on the field the past two years is anything but that. I for one thought Haslett should have been replaced last season, and nothing has changed that opinion so far. He's trotted out one of the worst defenses in NFL history, yet has the talent to be much better. Yes, players to bare some of the blame here, but we've heard from insiders saying they didn't buy into Haslett's scheme. It shows. To be fair though, Haslett should have never been hired. He didn't want to run the 3-4 scheme, and he's suited for a 4-3 style of defense. Hiring a square peg trying to fit him in a round hole was another huge mistake from Mike.

Another coach that needs to be let go is Bob Slowik. Who is this guy you ask? Well, you have to reach back to the Denver days during a time when their defense was shitty, which ultimately caused Mike his job. The main reason is because he refused to fire the DC at the time, who was none other than Bob Slowik.

Another huge sign of discipline comes in the forms of penalties. A team that has huge amounts of penalties shows very little discipline. It's the ONE thing that will drive me up the wall, and there simply is no excuse for it. You can forgive a blown coverage, but personal fouls, offsides, and others are inexcusable.

Bottom line is Mike has to make some changes to this team or Mike has to go. It really is that simple. Is he willing to make the necessary changes to prolong his career and push this team to the next level? Only time will tell, but if his stubbornness gets in the way again like it did in Denver, he needs to be handed his pink slip.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

^^^ Great post.

Re: Turnaround Time
 

The penalties drive me crazy as well. Its football-smarts and this team doesnt have it.
I know they are young kids for the most part and I can say that because I'm 44 years old. But honestly for you business minded guys out there, think of this situation.....

"Hey kid, I think you will be a great employee and addition to our business. I'm going to hire you for $$(insert 6 figure salary) to come work for us. Do your job, be a great team player and OH by the way, here are the rules, and you can't break them or you will really hurt our business and be fired. Is this OK with you?" "Sure boss"

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=Daseal;1028544]I was going to bring up this same point. Please remember we've been at a massive disadvantage when it comes to obtaining players the past two years. We've had some good drafts, but have not been able to supplement with good free agent players. Missing out on Winston at RT is a big one to me.[/quote]

Man everytime I read about the penalized cap penalty it makes me hate NY more and more. I hate The Giants more than The Eagles and Cowboys combined!

Re: Turnaround Time
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1028991]I've waited a bit before I came in here with my thoughts. I believe Mike is still a top notch coach when it comes to the offensive side of the football. You probably won't find a better mind when it comes down to it. Unfortunately for him, he's probably the right coach at the wrong time. Let's review some of the road blocks he's had to deal with:

2010- Inherits oldest team in league with salary cap issues.
2010- Unable to gain any decents FA due to restricted FA market in uncapped year.

2011- Lockout forces delay of TC and free agency.
2011- Penalized 38 million salary cap hours before the start of free agency. 18 mil applied this year.

2012- 18 million salary cap penalty

That in and of itself is hard for any coach to overcome. I'm not sure I would have even walked up in this mess to begin with, but something tells me he has the ego to think he can undo it all.


Fast forward to 3 years later. Even with all that has hampered the initial rebuilding, Mike apparently got it right in the fact we had the talent on this team to win our division last year. Are there other teams with more talent? Most definitely. Are we capable of competing and winning our division again? Most definitely. So that leaves us with the question.....why aren't we?

I think, bottom line, this comes down to coaching. It takes a good coach to realize when he needs to replace a broken cog in the wheel, and to instill discipline in players on the field. What we have seen on the field the past two years is anything but that. I for one thought Haslett should have been replaced last season, and nothing has changed that opinion so far. He's trotted out one of the worst defenses in NFL history, yet has the talent to be much better. Yes, players to bare some of the blame here, but we've heard from insiders saying they didn't buy into Haslett's scheme. It shows. To be fair though, Haslett should have never been hired. He didn't want to run the 3-4 scheme, and he's suited for a 4-3 style of defense. Hiring a square peg trying to fit him in a round hole was another huge mistake from Mike.

Another coach that needs to be let go is Bob Slowik. Who is this guy you ask? Well, you have to reach back to the Denver days during a time when their defense was shitty, which ultimately caused Mike his job. The main reason is because he refused to fire the DC at the time, who was none other than Bob Slowik.

Another huge sign of discipline comes in the forms of penalties. A team that has huge amounts of penalties shows very little discipline. It's the ONE thing that will drive me up the wall, and there simply is no excuse for it. You can forgive a blown coverage, but personal fouls, offsides, and others are inexcusable.

Bottom line is Mike has to make some changes to this team or Mike has to go. It really is that simple. Is he willing to make the necessary changes to prolong his career and push this team to the next level? Only time will tell, but if his stubbornness gets in the way again like it did in Denver, he needs to be handed his pink slip.[/quote]Good post NC.

I do not expect everyone to agree with me that the hire was flawed from the beginning -- that this just wasn't going to work out -- but it's now 2013 year four and the excuses for the performance of this organization (Cerrato? Really?) are ludicrous. No one was saying anything about the effects of the cap penalty when the Redskins cut productive guys like Tony Pashos because they didn't have a spot for them on the 53 man roster.

My fear with the RG3 trade was that there just wasn't enough talent around him to build a winner. And while I've come to the conclusion that we should do the trade again if offered the same deal, the team is 9-10 in games Griffin starts, which is just not very good. Rewind back to year 4 of Gibbs & the first Zorn year, and the Redskins were 14-15 with Campbell under center. The quarterback is different, the problems with the team are not.

The Redskins are going to need an influx of top like talent. That probably means one of the top free agents next year, since the teams first pick will be about number 40 or so in the draft. But I think it also may require some new ideas. We know what this coaching staff is capable of. Time to look for the next guy.