Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;1052470]While maybe not having a true GM was a mistake, I get so tired of hearing how poor of an owner Snyder is. We rehash and rehash facts from almost ten years ago. Sure, I'd love a more traditional model since we like to do things the ass-backwards way, but saying Allen is just a yes-man after Snyder backing off for years is quite a stretch when there's nothing to prove otherwise.[/quote]

The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

To all those that are being defensive about this new FO arrangement being criticized. Some people, including myself, are wary of this arrangement due to the track record of this organization. I don't think anyone is arguing that this CAN'T or WON'T work, but there should be some healthy skepticism about this arrangement. If Allen will be defaulting to the opinions of his personnel management why not explicitly say so? Why say so firmly that he is the decision maker? If the plan is to give Allen and Brown a chance to prove themselves before promotion, why not spell it out? There may be some very good reasons, but on the surface it doesn't look much different than the past arrangement with Vinnie, and that is what is alarming about this. I very much HOPE they are going to give the personnel guys more say, and trust their judgement, but I think many of us would feel a lot more confident if they had announced that someone with personnel experience would have final say in personnel decisions.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052489]The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?[/quote]

Allen has way more pedigree than Cerrato. Allen has been an NFL Executive for years and took a franchise to the Super Bowl (Tampa). He's had experience as a GM and while he may not have a perfect record in that aspect (Every GM has missed on draft picks & FA's), comparing him to Cerrato is ridiculous. Bruce has also stabilized our cap situation and the way we do our contracts which is something Cerrato had no clue of doing. C'mon are you seriously comparing the two? Cerrato was a complete joke and still is.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Also, what concerns me is that it sounded like they have decided already what direction this team was going in . . . When Allen said that the personnel guys would be given new instructions on what to look for in players . . . So that could mean one of two things to me:

1. They have a coach already, he is in the playoffs, and they can't talk about it, but they have had communications with them under the table and know the direction the team will be going in.

2. They have already decided what direction THEY want the team to go in, and they are looking for a coach willing to be on board with "the plan."

Based on past experience, I'd say 1 is much less likely than 2. Maybe there are other possibilities, any thoughts?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Redskins_P;1052495]Allen has way more pedigree than Cerrato. Allen has been an NFL Executive for years and took a franchise to the Super Bowl (Tampa). He's had experience as a GM and while he may not have a perfect record in that aspect (Every GM has missed on draft picks & FA's), comparing him to Cerrato is ridiculous. Bruce has also stabilized our cap situation and the way we do our contracts which is something Cerrato had no clue of doing. C'mon are you seriously comparing the two? Cerrato was a complete joke and still is.[/quote]

Bruce Allen didn't win a SB with the Bucs, it was Rich McKay not to mention the fact that after he took over he was promptly fired as the GM. I guess I am the only one that finds it troublesome that the "GM" of this team is out there now proclaiming "I'm in charge now." The management structure of the Redskins is a farce and for all you know Shannhan was the guy that got this team out of cap hell. Shanahan had the finally say in all personal matters so if anyone deserves credit it should be him.

Bruce Allen is Snyder's lackey, much like Vinny.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

i like b.a. because he's not vinny...

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052489]The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?[/quote]

For Cerrato it was undisputable proof that he was Snyder's yes-man, for Allen, it's PURE speculation, based on not many facts. Not to say he won't totally fail, BUT to say it's because he's up Snyder's butt might be a bit premature.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I also think Allen is smart enough to know that if he starts messing up with personnel decisions and NOT consulting his experts, the comparisons to Vinny with be the same and he likely will suffer the same fate.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052489]The proof is in the pudding. It's not rehashing if failure is constant.

I got a question for you lot, what exactly is the difference between Allen and Cerrato?[/quote]

Obviously it's ba perfers to use the draft
To build the team, stronger negotiating fa contracts, the ability to obtain a franchise qb. Very big differences

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;1052510]For Cerrato it was undisputable proof that he was Snyder's yes-man, for Allen, it's PURE speculation, based on not many facts. Not to say he won't totally fail, BUT to say it's because he's up Snyder's butt might be a bit premature.[/quote]
Good point. I just have a tough time giving Snyder the benefit of the doubt. I also understand that it's a tired argument to be critical of our owner.... but feel it's applicable given the latest. You'll rarely here me bash Snyder inappropriately when it's out of context.

Obviously hoping that Allen and Co succeed, but cant shake the feeling that weve done this before.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Is really no one else concerned that Allen implied that they are making schematic decisions without a coach in place?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

So we are going to give Allen certain credit over the last 4 years but none of the blame? If you want to say he has been the GM over the last 4 years he has been a poor one, if you want to say he really didn't have full control he'd still be a poor "GM." Allen, Snyder and Shannahan have 24-40 record.

From a General Management standpoint this team has more holes than Swiss Cheese and Allen is part of this disastrous regime.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

The notion that Allen is Snyder's puppet makes no sense. Shanahan made every decision, the only one Snyder got involved with was trading for RG3. I'd like to know who among us thought that was a mistake in 2012 when we made that deal, and who among us thought it was a mistake after his rookie year.

The blame for RG3's injury and the subsequent shit-storm that ensued lies at the feet of Shanahan.

And if you want to get up in arms about the owner having dinner with his QB, the coach needs to be able to handle that kind of thing because quite simply: who gives a flying eff. It's just f'ing dinner.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052523]Is really no one else concerned that Allen implied that they are making schematic decisions without a coach in place?[/quote]

LOL, I am...What a farce.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Exactly. I mean how many people here are supervisors? Do you not have friendships with your employees because you don't want to upset everyone else? Not only that, by all accounts RG3 is a very likeable guy. If I'M RG3, I would think it was odd if the person writing my paycheck avoided me.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052523]Is really no one else concerned that Allen implied that they are making schematic decisions without a coach in place?[/quote]

I never heard him say anything to that effect.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052524]So we are going to give Allen certain credit over the last 4 years but none of the blame? If you want to say he has been the GM over the last 4 years he has been a poor one, if you want to say he really didn't have full control he'd still be a poor "GM." Allen, Snyder and Shannahan have 24-40 record.

From a General Management standpoint this team has more holes than Swiss Cheese and Allen is part of this disastrous regime.[/quote]

Didnt Allen accept some of that blame yesterday and stated some changes. You didnt see someone close lip, but someone who stood up, took a little blame and talked about the future. Another difference between Vinny and Bruce. Leadership. I really dont see, how you dont see.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052524]So we are going to give Allen certain credit over the last 4 years but none of the blame? If you want to say he has been the GM over the last 4 years he has been a poor one, if you want to say he really didn't have full control he'd still be a poor "GM." Allen, Snyder and Shannahan have 24-40 record.

From a General Management standpoint this team has more holes than Swiss Cheese and Allen is part of this disastrous regime.[/quote]

What things should we blame Allen for? I'm no apologist, but he had zero involvement in anything that happened after the Shanahan hire.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052526]The notion that Allen is Snyder's puppet makes no sense. Shanahan made every decision, the only one Snyder got involved with was trading for RG3. I'd like to know who among us thought that was a mistake in 2012 when we made that deal, and who among us thought it was a mistake after his rookie year.

The blame for RG3's injury and the subsequent shit-storm that ensued lies at the feet of Shanahan.

And if you want to get up in arms about the owner having dinner with his QB, the coach needs to be able to handle that kind of thing because quite simply: who gives a flying eff. It's just f'ing dinner.[/quote]

So GM in name only then? GMs do GM things... Perhaps he need the paycheck?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052524]So we are going to give Allen certain credit over the last 4 years but none of the blame? If you want to say he has been the GM over the last 4 years he has been a poor one, if you want to say he really didn't have full control he'd still be a poor "GM." Allen, Snyder and Shannahan have 24-40 record.

From a General Management standpoint this team has more holes than Swiss Cheese and Allen is part of this disastrous regime.[/quote]

Allen wasn't picking the players, it was Shanny. Plus, Allen said on his press conference that everyone was responsible and took blame. I don't think anyone has given him any credit besides the cap situation.

Shanahan takes the bulk of the blame for the last 4 years because he CHOSE HIS PLAYERS. The holes you speak of were created by Shanahan.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052532]So GM in name only then? GMs do GM things... Perhaps he need the paycheck?[/quote]

You clearly have no knowledge of how the Redskins front office worked under Shanahan. I would draw you an org structure but this isn't MS Word.

Shanahan reported to Snyder. Allen reported to Shanahan. Campbell and Brown reported to Allen.

All personnel decisions were made by Mike. Salary cap functions, scouting functions, non-football operations and alumni relations were handled by Allen. It was up to Shanahan to decide how do best make use of Allen and his resources.

Allen is not to blame for anything.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Chico23231;1052530]Didnt Allen accept some of that blame yesterday and stated some changes. You didnt see someone close lip, but someone who stood up, took a little blame and talked about the future. Another difference between Vinny and Bruce. Leadership. I really dont see, how you dont see.[/quote]

Leaders lead, they don't accept figurehead positions where they have no say. Allen is merely an Emperor without clothes that's taking the wrap for god knows what. As far as I am concerned he is just another guy on the payroll so Snyder can say "Look, I am not the GM, we have a GM!"

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052529]I never heard him say anything to that effect.[/quote]

" We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players. Obviously when we have a new head coach, there will be some schematic adjustments that we will make. But that power will be with me.”

That sounds to me like they have already made schematic decisions, and I just don't get that, what coach would come in knowing he had little say over the scheme they run? Sounds like a Zorn situation to me.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052537]" We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players. [B]Obviously when we have a new head coach, there will be some schematic adjustments [/B]that we will make. But that power will be with me.”

That sounds to me like they have already made schematic decisions, and I just don't get that, what coach would come in knowing he had little say over the scheme they run? Sounds like a Zorn situation to me.[/quote]

[B]When[/B] we have a new head coach

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

I see that yes, but redefining the characteristics of players recruited has EVERYTHING to do with scheme.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052535]You clearly have no knowledge of how the Redskins front office worked under Shanahan. I would draw you an org structure but this isn't MS Word.

Shanahan reported to Snyder. Allen reported to Shanahan. Campbell and Brown reported to Allen.

All personnel decisions were made by Mike. Salary cap functions, scouting functions, non-football operations and alumni relations were handled by Allen. It was up to Shanahan to decide how do best make use of Allen and his resources.

Allen is not to blame for anything.[/quote]

I am merely puzzled what's his purpose? Is he the GM? What kind of retarded management structure is that? Who is the baby and who is the bathwater?

My firm belief is that Snyder created this miserable structure for a reason. Why?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

"Obviously when we have a new head coach, there will be some schematic adjustments that we will make. But that power will be with me.”

I don't know whats so hard to understand. A new coach comes in with a new scheme will want players that fit his scheme best. How does that sound like we've already made schematic changes???? He stating the obvious. A new coach = a new scheme.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052537]" We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players. Obviously when we have a new head coach, there will be some schematic adjustments that we will make. But that power will be with me.”

That sounds to me like they have already made schematic decisions, and I just don't get that, what coach would come in knowing he had little say over the scheme they run? Sounds like a Zorn situation to me.[/quote]

I think that's a blatant misread on your part. He is saying that there will be a new coach and that coach will have a scheme in mind. But the power to pick the players (part of his statement that came before the part you quoted) lies with him.

He is definitely not saying he will pick the scheme and make a coach adhere to it. That would be ridiculous and frankly I can't even believe I'm entertaining this discussion.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Also, who is the "we" he is speaking of when he says they are redefining characteristics? Is it a Royal we? Is it he and Snyder? Or is it he, Brown, and Campbell?

And in any of these cases, why should HE be part of that decision? He is not a personnel guy?

And why would they make these changes without even knowing the scheme of their next head coach?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=saden1;1052540]I am merely puzzled what's his purpose? Is he the GM? What kind of retarded management structure is that? Who is the baby and who is the bathwater?

My firm believe is that Snyder created this miserable structure for a reason. Why?[/quote]

He was not a GM in the traditional sense. He had no control over player personnel. It was a Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, I-buy-the-groceries-and-cook-the-dinner model.

Snyder hired Allen with a true GM model in mind, but to get Shanahan to sign on the dotted line he had to give him full control. That rendered Allen's true GM role useless, so Snyder had him doing other things.

Now Snyder has given Allen true GM power with player personnel decisions.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052539]I see that yes, but redefining the characteristics of players recruited has EVERYTHING to do with scheme.[/quote]

I think he meant that he's going to trust what Morocco & Scott tell him and draft/sign FA's with their input as opposed to going to Shanny for final say.

I'm sure they aren't going to recruit players before they know what scheme the new HC will be running. That's completely retarded.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052543]Also, who is the "we" he is speaking of when he says they are redefining characteristics? Is it a Royal we? Is it he and Snyder? Or is it he, Brown, and Campbell?

And in any of these cases, why should HE be part of that decision? He is not a personnel guy?

And why would they make these changes without even knowing the scheme of their next head coach?[/quote]

You're not allowed to talk anymore. Go back and study harder for the reading comprehension component of the SAT.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Well maybe it is a misread on my part, but if he meant that once they have a new coach they will redefine the players they're going after, why not say that?

Instead he said we will redefine and yeah of course a new coach will want to make schematic changes, but I make the decisions.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=schneed10;1052546]you're not allowed to talk anymore. Go back and study harder for the reading comprehension component of the sat.[/quote]

lol

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052537]" We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players. [B]Obviously when we have a new head coach, there will be some schematic adjustments that we will make.[/B] But that power will be with me.”

That sounds to me like they have already made schematic decisions, and I just don't get that, what coach would come in knowing he had little say over the scheme they run? Sounds like a Zorn situation to me.[/quote]

With the bolded statement BA is saying that he will follow the preferences of a new head coach, not override those preferences. Your worry there is misplaced in BA's own words.

Look at it this way: Shanahan has unique tastes in linemen. We do not have to cater to those tastes any more, regardless of who the next coach is. I think this is what BA was trying to say.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

You all keep saying the same thing and acting like I am completely off-base, but he very clearly says the decisions on scheme lie with him, why is that ok with everyone?

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=WillH;1052550]You all keep saying the same thing and acting like I am completely off-base, but he very clearly says the decisions on scheme lie with him, why is that ok with everyone?[/quote]

Because he clearly does not say that. He said that a new coach will bring schematic changes and they will pick their players based on the best fit for said scheme. Why is that so hard to understand? You keep trying to twist and bend his words so you can make yourself and us believe your logic. It's very simple. Pick a new coach, draft and sign players that fit his scheme.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

Well this got dumb really quick.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=Schneed10;1052544]He was not a GM in the traditional sense. He had no control over player personnel. It was a Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, I-buy-the-groceries-and-cook-the-dinner model.

Snyder hired Allen with a true GM model in mind, but to get Shanahan to sign on the dotted line he had to give him full control. That rendered Allen's true GM role useless, so Snyder had him doing other things.

Now Snyder has given Allen true GM power with player personnel decisions.[/quote]

You're telling me a man that gets hired for the GM job only to be rendered powerless after the hiring of a head coach should not be viewed as a lackey?

I suppose you and I have a different view of the definition of lackey.

Re: Let's talk about the front office situation
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1052419]Many Redskins fans are writing off Bruce Allen like he is not a legit executive. His strength is that he is a strong executive and will run the franchise like a business. He will rely on his team to help him make good decisions. Don't be surprised to see AJ Smith and Scott Campbell representing for us at the draft. I hope that we add someone for the 49ers front office staff.[/quote]

a good executive in my book means knowing his place in the chain of command.

i really liked how bruce came out and laid things straight yesterday with a seemingly clear and firm game plan. I am worried that as a good executive he will submit to his boss who no one can deny likes to put his hand in the pot and feel like he is doing more than writing checks.

surprised bruce came out and gave mike the verbal middle finger .. i do wonder if that was to please DS by taking a clear shot at mike.

i really dont get why we are knocking shanahan's draft picks. the worst draft pick was a 3rd round OL guy ..... i really liked the roster he put together under the circumstances.


if DS does meddle i am going to be seriously seriously pissed off. this structure and environment as it stands now is ripe for DS meddling.

i think bruce is more a yes man vs sticking up to DS and it scares me