Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Rather than signing Byrd, I'd rather sign TJ Ward and Mike Mitchell. Likely we could get both for the price of one Jairus Byrd. Then we have both two capable starting safeties and money left for other positions.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

If I had a little more upstairs, or at least a little more cap-related knowledge, I would try to figure out just how many high-priced FAs we could sign.

Tandler had this to say in a January post: "The one "big name" the Redskins might sign is their own Brian Orakpo. With over a dozen holes to fill, there might not be any room for players like WR Eric Decker or S Jairus Byrd. The Redskins' situation is likely to push them in the direction of signing lesser-known players."

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1059531]I would go [U]all out[/U] to sign Jairus Byrd. He is easily the best FS (and one of the best players) available in FA. Signing him would provide a huge upgrade to our secondary.[/quote]

I would not sign Byrd. We have two guys that were drafted last year at the safety position. We have to give them a chance to develop. I would try and improve the pass rush so they don't have to cover as long.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=SirLK26;1059552]If I had a little more upstairs, or at least a little more cap-related knowledge, I would try to figure out just how many high-priced FAs we could sign.

Tandler had this to say in a January post: "The one "big name" the Redskins might sign is their own Brian Orakpo. With over a dozen holes to fill, there might not be any room for players like WR Eric Decker or S Jairus Byrd. The Redskins' situation is likely to push them in the direction of signing lesser-known players."[/quote]

So basically what Seattle has down the last 2 or three years. Would be nice to get value instead of names.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Let me try to expalin why I'm so high on trying to sign Jairus Byrd. It's because I think that the thing we need most for our secondary is an inspirational veteran leader. The best spot for that leader to play is safety so he can see the entire field and "quarterback" the secondary.

OK, so now I need to explain what constitutes leadership on a football team, IMO. First of all, a team leader must be a very productive player. He must be able to make big plays at key moments in games. He must be a proven and respected player.

Secondly, he must be experienced so that he can recognize what's going to happen before it happens and help to position his teammates to make plays. He needs to be able to help his teammates become better players and so that they gain confidence in themselves and their teammates. Vocal encouragement is good too, but it is less important than production and experience as a leadership trait.

Jairus Byrd is far and away the best man for that job, IMO.

That said, even if the Redskins brain trust were to think the same way I do, Byrd may be Franchised or he may sign elsewhere. If that were to happen, my Plan B would be to move DHall to FS to fill the "quarterback" role. Hall has the traits I'm looking for in a leader but I would prefer him at CB. Nevertheless, if I couldn't get my first choice I'd move DHall to safety and then I would sign a solid veteran CB. I'm very comfortable that DHall could make that move and play well.

I would plan to go with Phillip Thomas at SS, David Amerson as a starting CB opposite the new veteran CB, and Richard Crawford as the third CB.

Any reserves in the secondary beyond those mentioned would need to be good on ST to make the roster.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1059545]Rather than signing Byrd, I'd rather sign TJ Ward and Mike Mitchell. Likely we could get both for the price of one Jairus Byrd. Then we have both two capable starting safeties and money left for other positions.[/QUOTE]

I hope we do this

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1059564]I hope we do this[/quote]

I read in a couple of places that TJ Ward is expected to be Franchise tagged by Cleveland. But if he isn't tagged I think he'll cost a lot more than Lotus and you may think. He is definitely a Top 10 Free Agent, IMO.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

I think the two safeties we drafted last year could do well if given more then one year to prove it.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1059565]I read in a couple of places that TJ Ward is expected to be Franchise tagged by Cleveland. But if he isn't tagged I think he'll cost a lot more than Lotus and you may think. He is definitely a Top 10 Free Agent, IMO.[/quote]

Yeah, Ward could turn out to be surprisingly expensive. My argument is premised on market value and we all know that FA's price tags sometimes significantly exceed market value.

I still wouldn't sign Byrd. He's a phenomenal player and I am not knocking him at all. But his price tag will be too much for just one safety position when we have so many other needs. We could still acquire a "pretty good" FS through other means and a "pretty good" FS will be good enough for us. Heck, "pretty good" will be better than anything we've had in years.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Bucket;1059566]I think the two safeties we drafted last year could do well if given more then one year to prove it.[/quote]

I picture both Rambo and Thomas as ss as opposed to free. I agree they should be given a chance to compete for that spot with a vet free agent on a small deal. I believe it's time to sign a starter at the free agent position, whether its Byrd or someone else.

I don't think there is a chance in hell tj ward walks from the browns.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

I'm not sold on Rambo.....I think last season was a learning experience and he was only a rookie.......but Thomas played well in that one preseason game......I hope they don't try to go after Byrd and give him a lot of money.....

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;1059570]I'm not sold on Rambo.....I think last season was a learning experience and he was only a rookie.......but Thomas played well in that one preseason game......I hope they don't try to go after Byrd and give him a lot of money.....[/quote]

Speaking of Thomas, has anyone heard how he is doing on his rehab?

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Bucket;1059566]I think the two safeties we drafted last year could do well if given more then one year to prove it.[/quote]

That's what I'm saying. It's counter productive to use two draft picks at a position of need, then give up on them after only one year to overpay a high priced free agent. I would coach them up, take the free agent money and sign some people that can block and rush the passer.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Jayroc24;1059571]Speaking of Thomas, has anyone heard how he is doing on his rehab?[/quote]

He had a lis Franc injury. I would imagine he will or could already be good to go. When it occurred in the summer I believe he could have made it back by the end of the year but the team decided to shut him down due to the length of the recovery and his lack of experience.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Chico23231;1059427]So Reed is irreplaceable now? wow, if that doesnt scream upgrade the secondary...[/quote]

He's not irreplaceable, but he's not really a priority to move IMO. I could go either way with him, but getting rid of him doesn't really fix anything. I think he has value as a ST player. The team needs a starting FS and SS badly, and they should focus their resources on that aspect.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Resign dhall cheap to play safety/nickel back. Sign a free agent cb

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Skins4L;1059513]Nahhh Doughty people?? Lol let him walk. Its time. Do we wanna fix this or not??

Resign Hall, Meriweather.
Add Verner & Byrd... omg... we could rely on Kerrakpo to force qb mistakes and were dominant. Big Barry still fills our gap up the middle still. Let Riley do his thing. Ends would be our concern but theres some cheap options we could look at.[/quote]You have guys like Reed, so you *don't* have guys like Biggers or worse coming into games and giving up TDs. (I'd keep Biggers until we actually have a better player to take his place too.) The good teams backups for regular rotations during the game, and for injuries. Reed's been a solid player for us. This myopic view of "He's not a super star, CUT HIM!!", is one reason we sucked in the past, and is still affecting us today. That doesn't mean say Seattle has a starting caliber guy backing up every starter, most of their backups are guys like Reed, guys who can fill in. That's how that Pats kept going this season, how the Packers won their last SB. Their backups didn't become superstars, they came in, hustled, and got the job done even though they got beat individually more than a regular starter would.

Now, if we get enough guys to beat Doughty on the depth chart, sure cut him. Right now we only have four safeties on the roster at redskins.com, and Doughty's currently the best of the bunch, lol. We do need to give Thomas and Rambo PT and hopefully they develop into starting roles.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1059581]Now, if we get enough guys to beat Doughty on the depth chart, sure cut him. Right now we only have four safeties on the roster at redskins.com, and Doughty's currently the best of the bunch, lol. We do need to give Thomas and Rambo PT and hopefully they develop into starting roles.[/quote]

Wasn't Reed Doughty the Captain of our Special Teams? He was definitely one of the few ST players who was adequate. The ST's [U]killed[/U] us last year. It was obvious that Mike Shanahan paid little attention to that part of game when he finalized his roster. That can't happen again.

My point is, if I had anything to do with selecting players for the final roster, any reserve safety would have to be good on ST's to beat out Reed Doughty.

We need to get to the point where players who aren't starters make the team based on their ability to play ST - not as a tie-breaker but as a requirement of the job.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Lotus;1059545]Rather than signing Byrd, I'd rather sign [B]TJ Ward and Mike Mitchell.[/B] Likely we could get both for the price of one Jairus Byrd. Then we have both two capable starting safeties and money left for other positions.[/quote]

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1059565]I read in a couple of places that TJ Ward is expected to be Franchise tagged by Cleveland. But if he isn't tagged I think he'll cost a lot more than Lotus and you may think. He is definitely a Top 10 Free Agent, IMO.[/quote]

Also, Mike Mitchell will most likely be resigned by Carolina.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1059605]Wasn't Reed Doughty the Captain of our Special Teams? He was definitely one of the few ST players who was adequate. The ST's [U]killed[/U] us last year. It was obvious that Mike Shanahan paid little attention to that part of game when he finalized his roster. That can't happen again.

My point is, if I had anything to do with selecting players for the final roster, any reserve safety would have to be good on ST's to beat out Reed Doughty.

We need to get to the point where players who aren't starters make the team based on their ability to play ST - not as a tie-breaker but as a requirement of the job.[/quote]

Excellent argument.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Bucket;1059566]I think the two safeties we drafted last year could do well if given more then one year to prove it.[/quote]


This guy gets it! Add 2 free safeties this yr:
FA-inexpensive FS about 2-4 mil for 2 yrs + draft one in the 4th or 5th round

The FA must be a special teams guy, he could be a fourth year player that is done with his rookie contract who didn't get a chance with the current team due to injury, or just behind an established veteran, or a guy that bounced around a year of two one the D-squad, or even a late cut by a team.

The draft pick should be a player who didn't perform as well in the senior yr due to injury or system change, etc.

Let last yrs rookies compete with these guys and the hold overs. Hopefully the coaches do their jobs and put the players in position to be successful.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=whistler;1060280]This guy gets it! Add 2 free safeties this yr:
FA-inexpensive FS about 3-6 mil for 2 yrs + draft one in the 4th or 5th round

The FA must be a special teams guy, he could be a fourth year player that is a done with his rookie contract that didn't get a chance with the current team.

The draft pick should be a player who did perform as well in the senior yr due to injury or system change, etc.

Let last yrs rookies compete with these guys and the hold overs. Hopefully the coaches do their jobs and put the players in position to be successful.[/quote]

So you want a collection of half-fast safeties battling one another in preseason to see which one can be the most adequate or, as I view it, suck the least?

Absolutely not! That's just not good enough. We don't need a band-aid - we need a compress. Our secondary must have a leader at FS. Someone with a record of success in the NFL, We need a FS with range, playmaking ability, and the smarts to "quarterback" the defensive backfield.

IMO, Jairus Byrd would be perfect for us. Mike Mitchell or Chris Clemons (at FS) could also help us.

Byrd may cost way too much but Mitchell could be a very good signing since he will be more affordable and he is young, productive, and has upside. We could probably get a few good years from Clemons, without the upside of Mitchell, at a reasonable price, as well.

A Mitchell signing would please me because it would remind me of the Garcon signing where we get a young player who is about to take a step up to the next level on a good contract.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1060282]So you want a collection of half-fast safeties battling one another in preseason to see which one can be the most adequate or, as I view it, suck the least?

No thanks! That's just no good enough. Our secondary needs a leader at FS. Someone with a record of success in the NFL, We need an intuitive FS with range, playmaking ability, and the smarts to "quarterback" the defensive backfield.

IMO, Jairus Byrd would be perfect for us. Chris Clemons (at FS) and Antoine Bethea would also help us.[/quote]

The skins have a serious need to "grow their own" players. If you draft well, and identify talent correctly it can be done without breaking the bank. Seattle did a good job with that, and it paid off the last couple of years, however coaching helps a lot.

It seems as if there are no good players out there other than Byrd and Ward?

Good football players are never a step slow due to good football instincts. Good DBs don't have to run 4.4, low 4.5s isn't bad db speed. Football isn't a track meet. There are diamonds in the rough everywhere.

Bringing in highly touted FAs that are given a starting position can be a confidence killer to a young guy with potential.

Now, if your saying that you have no confidence in the skin's front office to identify talent or the coaches to "coach em up" that's a whole different discussion.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Whistler team building strategy seems to be let's just get a bunch of average joes and keep our fingers crossed. We have the cap space and we are in good cap position for the future as well, so why not interject some good talent in some need areas? Several players at Safety, Oline and WR could put this team back in the playoffs quickly.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Chico23231;1060285]Whistler team building strategy seems to be let's just get a bunch of average joes and keep our fingers crossed. We have the cap space and we are in good cap position for the future as well, so why not interject some good talent in some need areas? Several players at Safety, Oline and WR could put this team back in the playoffs quickly.[/quote]

What if it doesn't work? You'll have no cap space to fix it.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=whistler;1060286]What if it doesn't work? You'll have no cap space to fix it.[/quote]

Bruce been good with the cap and not overspending, even when he has taken chances with guys(ie Morgan) he's left the skins with outs. I got zero problems with Bruce negotiating big player contracts

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Chico23231;1060288]Bruce been good with the cap and not overspending, even when he has taken chances with guys(ie Morgan) he's left the skins with outs. I got zero problems with Bruce negotiating big player contracts[/quote]

Can't have it both ways, if you want to spend 30 mil on free agents in all areas, all of those contracts increase yearly and that binds everything up for the next 3 yrs.

Let's hope Bruce does the talent side as well as he's done the contract situation. if he can, then we don't have to worry about talented, committed players.

Please remember that the cap has been very reduced for 2 yrs, and they were up against that number for 2 years, asking players to restructure every yr.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=whistler;1060280]This guy gets it! Add 2 free safeties this yr:
FA-inexpensive FS about 2-4 mil for 2 yrs + draft one in the 4th or 5th round

The FA must be a special teams guy, he could be a fourth year player that is done with his rookie contract who didn't get a chance with the current team due to injury, or just behind an established veteran, or a guy that bounced around a year of two one the D-squad, or even a late cut by a team.

The draft pick should be a player who didn't perform as well in the senior yr due to injury or system change, etc.

Let last yrs rookies compete with these guys and the hold overs. Hopefully the coaches do their jobs and put the players in position to be successful.[/quote]

We tried this approach of cheap solutions and draft picks last season. We need to get a proven player back there at safety. Byrd and Ward are likely to get tagged, so we need to aim for the best FA available.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Monkeydad;1060351]We tried this approach of cheap solutions and draft picks last season. We need to get a proven player back there at safety. Byrd and Ward are likely to get tagged, so we need to aim for the best FA available.[/quote]

Patience "Rome wasn't built in a day". You can build through the draft and young free agents it would probably make a more cohesive secondary. You don't have to break the bank for secondary guys, you have to find the right ones and coach them through their learning curve.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=whistler;1060655]Patience "Rome wasn't built in a day". You can build through the draft and young free agents it would probably make a more cohesive secondary. You don't have to break the bank for secondary guys, you have to find the right ones and coach them through their learning curve.[/quote]

i hear what you're saying whistler and maybe the majority seems too quick to not think thomas or rambo can be a legit safety (i agree w the majority) ... but given our secondary woes and the fact that we have relatively cheap corners ... id like to see us invest some dinero in an above average safety as I view merriweather as our only NFL caliber safety on the roster.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=over the mountain;1060661]i hear what you're saying whistler and maybe the majority seems too quick to not think thomas or rambo can be a legit safety (i agree w the majority) ... but given our secondary woes and the fact that we have relatively cheap corners ... id like to see us invest some dinero in an above average safety as [B]I view merriweather as our only NFL caliber safety on the roster.[/B][/quote]

Don't let NC Skins hear you say that. ;)

I think Thomas can be an impact NFL starter, but Rambo is a little more questionable. I wish he and Gumbs would at least contribute on Special Teams.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Rambo, Thomas, and Gumbs are all strong safety types. I know Rambo played some FS last year...and we saw the results. They can duke it out for the SS starter's role.

But we don't have a bona fide free safety. Unless we move up to draft someone like Calvin Pryor (unlikely), we need to sign a good-quality FA free safety.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Lotus;1060674]Rambo, Thomas, and Gumbs are all strong safety types. I know Rambo played some FS last year...and we saw the results. They can duke it out for the SS starter's role.

But we don't have a bona fide free safety. Unless we move up to draft someone like Calvin Pryor (unlikely), we need to sign a good-quality FA free safety.[/quote]

Calvin looks like a SS at the pro level

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Lotus;1060674]Rambo, Thomas, and Gumbs are all strong safety types. I know Rambo played some FS last year...and we saw the results. They can duke it out for the SS starter's role.

But we don't have a bona fide free safety. Unless we move up to draft someone like Calvin Pryor (unlikely), we need to sign a good-quality FA free safety.[/quote]

Mike Mitchell.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Mike Mitchell is very good. I think Carolina will try to sign him but they have alot of people to sign and no O-line depth. I think we can get him.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

I'd be happy if we signed Mitchell.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=whistler;1060284][B]The skins have a serious need to "grow their own" players. If you draft well, and identify talent correctly it can be done without breaking the bank.[/B] Seattle did a good job with that, and it paid off the last couple of years, however coaching helps a lot.

It seems as if there are no good players out there other than Byrd and Ward?

Good football players are never a step slow due to good football instincts. Good DBs don't have to run 4.4, low 4.5s isn't bad db speed. Football isn't a track meet. There are diamonds in the rough everywhere.

Bringing in highly touted FAs that are given a starting position can be a confidence killer to a young guy with potential.

Now, if your saying that you have no confidence in the skin's front office to identify talent or the coaches to "coach em up" that's a whole different discussion.[/quote]

Exactly.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=Chico23231;1060285]Whistler team building strategy seems to be let's just get a bunch of average joes and keep our fingers crossed. We have the cap space and we are in good cap position for the future as well, so why not interject some good talent in some need areas? Several players at Safety, Oline and WR could put this team back in the playoffs quickly.[/quote]

So when has this strategy worked in the past?

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

Weve tried to polish so many turds here for years now especially in the secondary. Sign a legit cover safety or watch us get burnt next year. Like we need more to complain about. We have Orak, Kerrigan, Amerson, Perry, all homegrown guys. Let gruden draft his offense. If it goes the opposite so be it. But i feel like safety needs to be addressed bigtime. Not lets see what happens again. I didnt want Rambo to not pan out either but.. you trust this guy?? He looked awful game 1. Your a rookie its your shot.. i dunno bout a guy like that. If he turns it around ill be happy but very surprised.

Re: Fixing the Secondary
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1060756]So when has this strategy worked in the past?[/quote]

London Fletcher, to name just one.