Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1083281]Drew Brees plays w/ aggression. He's doing OK.[/quote]

Not the same. Every QB needs some aggression. Let me rephrase: Favre, Grossman, and Cousins play with [I]reckless [/I]aggression. And, as we saw with Favre and Grossman, the negative part never goes away.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1083293]Thanks for sharing Saden, I know most people's stance but I wasn't really positive where you stood from your oh so classy post in the other thread.[/quote]

Well, you know what they say about opinions...thanks for sharing your opinion.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Lotus;1083305]Not the same. Every QB needs some aggression. Let me rephrase: Favre, [B]Grossman[/B], and Cousins play with [I]reckless [/I]aggression. And, as we saw with Favre and Grossman, the negative part never goes away.[/quote]

For someone to truly understand reckless aggression they must first read this article.

[url=http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2006/11/f-k-it-im-throwing-it-downfield.html]F--k It. I'm Throwing It Downfield. | Kissing Suzy Kolber[/url]

Warning lots of bad language, though maybe I should put that above the link so I can be sure people are see it before the click a of the story......nah bad that be of not. English mine fire on today.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Chico23231;1083266]44, it's a legit question. The ceiling option is valid since no one traded for him this offseason. It's based on perceived opinion from other organization who need qb. I'll put u down for option 2[/quote]

The Chargers were done with Brees after 2 seasons and 30 plus starts. I'm not ready to pass judgement on Cousins yet, but I think he looks better than most after only a handful of starts. The Browns, Falcons and yesterday's games were all impressive. The other 2 were stinkers. But he's shown enough to be encouraged by his potential.

And I put zero stock in NFL talent evaluators when it comes to the QB position. Grading QBs is a complete mystery, and it wouldn't surprise me if everyone missed on Cousins just like they have with countless QBs before him.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Lotus;1083305]Not the same. Every QB needs some aggression. Let me rephrase: Favre, Grossman, and Cousins play with [I]reckless [/I]aggression. And, as we saw with Favre and Grossman, the negative part never goes away.[/quote]

Too early to come to that conclusion with Cousins. Most young QBs struggle with turnovers and many of them correct it and move on. And sign me up for Favre. I'll gladly take 15 years of that.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Dislocated etc etc. I say 4 weeks. He landed on his ankle wrong. If you play basketball a lot this is a common injury. It hurts like hell you can't walk on it for a week or two. 4 weeks max. That injury can happen to anybody who attempts a jump pass.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Lotus;1083271]Good luck with that.

IMO Kirk is like Grossman and Favre: one of his best qualities is his aggression. And one of his worst qualities is his aggression. And because aggression got him where he is, that problematic aggression is not going away.

Also, please note that while Kirk may have only 4 starts, he is in his third year. It's not like he's had no time to develop like Aaron Rodgers did.[/quote]

Rodgers played behind a first ballot hall of famer and is on his way to the hall fame as well. He's the exception, not the rule. I think you're expecting too much if you're setting the bar at Aaron Rodgers. Third year or not, nothing compares to game reps and Cousins, like everyone not named Aaron Rodgers, should benefit from live game experience.

Teams should hire you for your super-human ability to identify the incurable disease of aggression. It would save them $millions in bad draft picks.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1083351]Dislocated etc etc. I say 4 weeks. He landed on his ankle wrong. If you play basketball a lot this is a common injury. It hurts like hell you can't walk on it for a week or two. 4 weeks max. That injury can happen to anybody who attempts a jump pass.[/quote]

Dislocated ankles are common? Twists and sprains are common, but dislocations are rare. And one dislocation often leads to another.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;1083254]Cousins has always struck me as a 2TD 1 Int type of QB. However these days he might me seeing the field better.
[YT]pe74qk1QpjY[/YT]

...Sorry, I couldn't help myself.[/quote]

If he's a 2TD to 1 INT guy, then sign me up for 28TDs and 14INTs.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1083277]How much better do you think Cousins can be?[/quote]

Best case, maybe he's in the Cutler, Dalton, Foles range? Alex Smith maybe? Where does Russell Wilson fall? Kaepernick and Newton?

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1083277]How much better do you think Cousins can be?[/quote]

It all depends on the team around him. If Tyler Polumbus becomes a turnstile again.... if injuries continue to mount up...we will suck just like year. Regardless of who is at QB, even a healthy RGIII.

RGIII was heads a shoulders better than Cousins when they both came into the league. Hell, RGIII was a top 5 QB in the NFL that year.
Then he got hurt and all of that changed.
Since then I think KC might have improved, we will see.
RGIII on the hand has struggled.
I think the folks that put down KC need to realize RGIII is not who he was and may never regain that top 5 form. I hope not.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Lotus;1083305]Not the same. Every QB needs some aggression. Let me rephrase: Favre, Grossman, and Cousins play with [I]reckless [/I]aggression. And, as we saw with Favre and Grossman, the negative part never goes away.[/quote]

So you're saying KC is going to play with reckless aggression after 4 starts? Last week RG3 had Swearinger blitzing on a boot pass, Rg3 saw him, did nothing, stood there and took a bad sack. KC had that same play sun, saw that it was a bad play, threw it at Helu's legs for an incomplete pass, saving the yards. So, is RG3 going to keep taking bad sacks the rest of his career? Is he going to keep fumbling also?

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1083396]So you're saying KC is going to play with reckless aggression after 4 starts? Last week RG3 had Swearinger blitzing on a boot pass, Rg3 saw him, did nothing, stood there and took a bad sack. KC had that same play sun, saw that it was a bad play, threw it at Helu's legs for an incomplete pass, saving the yards. So, is RG3 going to keep taking bad sacks the rest of his career? Is he going to keep fumbling also?[/quote]

Cousins is a pocket passer and has always been a pocket passer. He should be a better pocket passer than RG3. IS Cousins doing better than Schaub , Ryan, or Dalton? Pocket Passers have some good games but they also throw multiple INTs.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

I noticed on the play Jackson got hurt on that Cousins does not have the deep ball accuracy or arm strength of Griffin. That's natural talent, can't teach that. No one is complaining about all of Cousins short passes like they complained about RG3's short passes.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=44Deezel;1083356]Dislocated ankles are common? Twists and sprains are common, but dislocations are rare. And one dislocation often leads to another.[/quote]

No surgery needed, yes those types of injuries are common it's a basketball injury. Cousins has his chance we can stop talking about it and see if he seals the deal.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1083408]I noticed on the play Jackson got hurt on that Cousins does not have the deep ball accuracy or arm strength of Griffin. [B]That's natural talent, can't teach that[/B]. No one is complaining about all of Cousins short passes like they complained about RG3's short passes.[/quote]

Not anymore. Granted there is a natural component to arm strength but more than ever scouts are realizing that in a lot cases its something that can measurably be improved on. Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers all have seen significant increases over the years in arm strength with strength training geared towards Quarterback play. Granted Peyton and Brady may have started to taper off but in their primes they were much better arm strength wise than they were coming out of college. Remember, some rated Leaf over Peyton because they felt that Peyton didn't have anywhere near the arm strength as Leaf.

So it stands to reason that a natural hard worker like Cousins can improve his arm strength as well. Now it'll probably never be on par with RG3, but its certainly very reasonable to expect it to go from maybe a B- or B all the way up to a B+ or A- given enough time.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1083408]I noticed on the play Jackson got hurt on that Cousins does not have the deep ball accuracy or arm strength of Griffin. That's natural talent, can't teach that. No one is complaining about all of Cousins short passes like they complained about RG3's short passes.[/quote]

Short passes? We're you watching the same game I was? He threw short, med, long, moved safeties with his eyes, the offense scored 41 points and had well over 400 yards. And he had no turnovers.

I do think Rg3 was going to have a beast of a game though...

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1083293]Thanks for sharing Saden, I know most people's stance but I wasn't really positive where you stood from your oh so classy post in the other thread.[/quote]

I agree, after that crap comment by Saden, I find it hard to even look at his posts any more. I mean, what kind of fan lists his own starting QB going down hard with a horrific injury as a positive in a game?

In my years here I'ver never, ever read a more disgusting comment. Saden is no fan of my team, frankly he needs to just go away, with the Moderators' encouragement if necessary.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

oh i missed that post. gross :(

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

I'm sorry.. I want RG3 to be okay and be able to do great things for us, but to say that KC cannot get better with more playing time and has hit his ceiling is a terrible terrible terrible idea.

You play more, and you get better... I wouldn't be surprised if KC has some great games for us.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

I won't either.

In fact, I'm expecting it.

The good news is both quarterbacks and gruden handled the press flawlessly. Griffin even went on twitter and gave support to the team that night.

If come week 13 or 14 giffin is healthy and cousins is playing lights out and we're running away with the division and Gruden has to seriously think about who's going to be starting... well, I think that's a good problem to have :)

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1083277]How much better do you think Cousins can be?[/quote]

I don't know how much he can improve.

I have no particular insight on the matter other than my life experience which has shown me that anyone who cares about his job is bound to get better at it with experience. Cousins hasn't had much game experience, so I am confident that he will get better by playing more. That's the essential reason why I don't think he has reached his ceiling, whatever his ceiling might be.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=SCRedskinsFan;1083429]I agree, after that crap comment by Saden, I find it hard to even look at his posts any more. I mean, what kind of fan lists his own starting QB going down hard with a horrific injury as a positive in a game?

In my years here I'ver never, ever read a more disgusting comment. Saden is no fan of my team, frankly he needs to just go away, with the Moderators' encouragement if necessary.[/quote]

Let me get this, you think it's okay for you to want me to go away because I want RG3 to go away? Ironic...moronic.

RG3 going down is the BEST thing to happen to this team and I am not the only one that thinks that. Feel free to speak your mind.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1083449]I don't know how much he can improve.

I have no particular insight on the matter other than my life experience which has shown me that anyone who cares about his job is bound to get better at it with experience. Cousins hasn't had much game experience, so I am confident that he will get better by playing more. That's the essential reason why I don't think he has reached his ceiling, whatever his ceiling might be.[/quote]

At some point though, talent (or lack there of) is going to trump desire. I don't buy this notion that just because you play more is going to mean more you're going to be better.

I liken him to a guy like Gus Frerotte. I think Cousins can play in this league for a long time, maybe even get a pro bowl bid or two along the way with an outside the norm year. But I just think he is what he is. I don't think he's going to elevate his game much higher than it currently stands.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=saden1;1083450]Let me get this, you think it's okay for you to want me to go away because I want RG3 to go away? Ironic...moronic.

RG3 going down is the BEST thing to happen to this team and I am not the only one that thinks that. Feel free to speak your mind.[/quote]

One thing to be glad Cousins is getting an opportunity, another to take glee in someone's injury

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1083452]One thing to be glad Cousins is getting an opportunity, another to take glee in someone's injury[/quote]

If you think what I wrote is gleeful you are wrong. This is not personal. I want one thing and one thing only and that is to win and the only way that happens is if RG3 is off the field.

I get it though, you guys are still enamored and hopefule RG3 can be this teams champion.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Question, assuming RG3 is healthy again what is his trade value?

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[QUOTE=44Deezel;1083349]The Chargers were done with Brees after 2 seasons and 30 plus starts. I'm not ready to pass judgement on Cousins yet, but I think he looks better than most after only a handful of starts. The Browns, Falcons and yesterday's games were all impressive. The other 2 were stinkers. But he's shown enough to be encouraged by his potential.



And I put zero stock in NFL talent evaluators when it comes to the QB position. Grading QBs is a complete mystery, and it wouldn't surprise me if everyone missed on Cousins just like they have with countless QBs before him.[/QUOTE]


Countless?? I count 2. Romo and Brady, only two starting QB's in the NFL undrafted. Majority are 1st and 2nd rounders. Occasional 3rd rounder like Wilson or Foles. He fell to the fourth for a reason, there are flaws in his game. As you mentioned with Brees sometimes it doesn't even work with your first team. It's all about being in the right situation at the right time. I don't think, and I hope Kirk has not come close to reaching his ceiling.

He has his opportunity now, and sounds like he will have it for around 8-10 weeks. Really curious to see how everything shakes out come the bye week.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

I don't get the assumption that Cousins had hit his ceiling. Has Griffin hit his ceiling? RG3 hasn't played better since the beginning of the playoff game vs. Seattle a year and a half ago.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1083481]I don't get the assumption that Cousins had hit his ceiling. Has Griffin hit his ceiling? RG3 hasn't played better since the beginning of the playoff game vs. Seattle a year and a half ago.[/quote]

To me the only advantage (and its a big one) RG3 has over KC is his ability to scramble and run. Now I'm not so sure how much that can be counted on.

I think KC can be a solid NFL QB. Not an elite but a solid starter. I dont think the Skins can trade KC because they definitely need a solid backup because RG3 does not appear to be very durable.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=saden1;1083455]Question, assuming RG3 is healthy again what is his trade value?[/quote]

Minimal to none.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=irish;1083486]To me the only advantage (and its a big one) RG3 has over KC is his ability to scramble and run. Now I'm not so sure how much that can be counted on.

I think KC can be a solid NFL QB. Not an elite but a solid starter. I dont think the Skins can trade KC because they definitely need a solid backup because RG3 does not appear to be very durable.[/quote]

I would give the advantage in arm strength to RGIII, as well.

Cousins lucked out when Jay Gruden was hired because Gruden's preferred offense is a very good fit for him. That should help Kirk to succeed.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1083490]I would give the advantage in arm strength to RGIII, as well.

Cousins lucked out when Jay Gruden was hired because Gruden's preferred offense is a very good fit for him. That should help Kirk to succeed.[/quote]

Hard to tell about arm strength (Djax had to wait for that bomb to get to him) but if he does have an advantage in arm strength its not enough to really matter.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Griffin definitely has a better arm and long ball, but Kirk's arm is just fine and he can certainly make all the throws.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

I mean, physically, it's simply not a comparison. RGIII has elite arm strength multiple sources have made that point. Same for speed. As for KC, and like Matty said, he can make the throws and has adequate physical tools to play QB in the NFL.

In terms of the mental aspect of the game, the question for me is "Can RGIII progress in pocket awareness and working his progressions?" If yes, then his ceiling is much, much higher than KC's.

As for KC, the question for me is "How much can he improve given he is already playing in a system with which he is basically familiar? Can he cut down on T/O's or is he the latest, greatest Rex Grossman?"

Each has question marks and, in light of the circumstances, neither has really had a chance to show what they can do. Between his knee and the Shanny's offense, RGIII still has a lot to learn about the position at the pro level despite all his starts. On the other hand, KC basically had a head start by playing in a pro-style offense at the collegiate level but hasn't shown he has grown from the guy he was back then.

I think they are both good guys. As Smoot said, I believe KC can have a long, journeyman career in the NFL - that's where his talent level puts him. RGIII is still a question mark, he has all the tools to be special - really special - but we just don't know yet if he will be.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=mlmdub130;1083462]Countless?? I count 2. Romo and Brady, only two starting QB's in the NFL undrafted. Majority are 1st and 2nd rounders. Occasional 3rd rounder like Wilson or Foles. He fell to the fourth for a reason, there are flaws in his game. As you mentioned with Brees sometimes it doesn't even work with your first team. It's all about being in the right situation at the right time. I don't think, and I hope Kirk has not come close to reaching his ceiling.

He has his opportunity now, and sounds like he will have it for around 8-10 weeks. Really curious to see how everything shakes out come the bye week.[/quote]

Brady was drafted in the 6th round QB

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Here's why, even if he has value, Griffin won't be traded, because if he is, and he lights it up on that team, then our FO will be the biggest joke in sports history. The only way they could trade him and save face is if they get a couple first rounders out of it, and that's just not in the cards. They really made there bed with him, and now they've got to lie in it. And for my part, I would be sick, absolutely sick, if we gave up on a HOF QB after 3 seasons and saw him dominating somewhere else.

Because of this reason, once he is absolutely positively healthy, I think he's going to get the nod no matter how well Cousins is doing. If nothing else, you need to be damned sure it was Cousins that elevated the teams play and not the other way around. I think RG3 gets his shot again, and if he stinks it up Cousins may be back in. Also, it's the best chance that they will have to be able to trade either player.

Honestly, I'm starting to doubt RG3, but this team cant just give up on him after a couple serious injuries, we invested too much. I think the best case scenario out of all this is if Kirk lights it up, keeps us in the playoff race and RG3 finishes it off looking spectacular. Then, we CAN trade Cousins, because if we get a couple first rounders, or some other equal combination, we can get another second option at QB if RG3 really doesn't pan out. And if Cousins ends up being the HOF QB of the 2, yeah I guess it will still suck and feel crappy, but at least we will have gotten some value for letting him go. We will never get out of the value hole for trading Griffin.

I know I know, "we shouldn't care how we got the players, we should make decisions on how well they're playing." I totally agree to that notion in theory, but in reality business is business, and you need to see things through the lense of value. And I guess one could argue that having a HOF QB come to us from a 4th round pick would be value enough to trump the value lost in trading for Griffin, but even if Cousins wins the NFC East this year for us, can we say that we are sure enough that he will be a HOF QB to give up on the huge investment we made in RG3? I won't be that sure.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Am I the only one that saw Griffin playing well to start the game on Sunday. This could have been his turnaround game the way things were going

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;1083508]Am I the only one that saw Griffin playing well to start the game on Sunday. This could have been his turnaround game the way things were going[/QUOTE]


Sure seemed that way. Damn shame.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=44Deezel;1083355][B]Rodgers played behind a first ballot hall of famer and is on his way to the hall fame as well. He's the exception, not the rule. I think you're expecting too much if you're setting the bar at Aaron Rodgers. [/B]Third year or not, nothing compares to game reps and Cousins, like everyone not named Aaron Rodgers, should benefit from live game experience.

Teams should hire you for your super-human ability to identify the incurable disease of aggression. It would save them $millions in bad draft picks.[/quote]

You missed my point. I am not saying Cousins will be Rodgers.

The point is that Cousins has had more time on the bench to develop than other good starters had at the start of their careers, so saying, "Cousins hasn't had a chance to develop" is simply not true.