Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Irrefutable;1102399]What are the odds of the Redskins finding an underrated high pick ?[/quote]

What are the odds they overrate a player with a high pick?

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

If we do get an additional 2nd round pick from a trade down and we can go Oline and Dline with a first and the other second....Melvin Gordon RB from Wisconsin. Him and Alfmo in the backfield would be ballin.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Irrefutable;1102399]What are the odds of the Redskins finding an underrated high pick ?[/quote]

Who said anything about underrated?? I said good prospect, and one will be there at 5.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Evilgrin;1102441]No one is picking Collins in the top 5.[/quote]

I wouldn't either but he still is a top prospect at his position

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Chico23231;1102436][B]Id really be careful with Shane Ray[/B], i wouldnt take him at 5. Nor would I take Collins or Winston. Everyone else looks legit. Id put Andrus Peat and Scherff in that group without hesitation.

Whats gonna suck is when everyone realizes Amari Cooper is the best player in the draft outside of Leonard Williams. And then we can have the arguement of why we didnt take him 2 years from now.[/quote]

They said that about Aldon Smith, and I see Winston being a great player, I would put those OL there too just didnt for that statement

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Chico23231;1102436]Id really be careful with Shane Ray, i wouldnt take him at 5. Nor would I take Collins or Winston. Everyone else looks legit. Id put Andrus Peat and Scherff in that group without hesitation.

Whats gonna suck is when everyone realizes Amari Cooper is the best player in the draft outside of Leonard Williams. And then we can have the arguement of why we didnt take him 2 years from now.[/quote]

While Cooper is the best offensive player in this draft, how can you justify drafting him??

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102456]While Cooper is the best offensive player in this draft, how can you justify drafting him??[/quote]

As the best offensive player in the draft. an impact receiver like a mike evans, ODB, and Juilio Jones..

See this is the arguement when people say BPA...

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102456]While Cooper is the best offensive player in this draft, how can you justify drafting him??[/quote]

Quake, I don't understand you. You said that you didn't want to trade down, that you wanted a #5 player for the #5 pick. But then you balk at the idea of taking the best offensive player in the draft.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102466]Quake, I don't understand you. You said that you didn't want to trade down, that you wanted a #5 player for the #5 pick. But then you balk at the idea of taking the best offensive player in the draft.[/quote]

I would have no issues with it, I was asking Chico how he would justify it, I already said take BPA, if you feel it is Cooper, take him

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Chico23231;1102461]As the best offensive player in the draft. an impact receiver like a mike evans, ODB, and Juilio Jones..

See this is the arguement when people say BPA...[/quote]

I would have no problem with it, I said how would you justify it.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102336]You could be right and I understand your logic. I'm still miffed that we could have had JJ Watt but traded down instead.

I'm guessing, though, that Winston and Mariota will not be valued as highly by real teams as they are by the numerous draft sites which have them going at the top.

The QB's who were supposed to revolutionize the game: RGIII, Kaep, Newton, etc., have mostly struggled (Russell Wilson excepted). So I think more GM's will be cautious about drafting nontraditional QB's like Mariota or Winston. The game has caught up with the "running" QB.

Which is a long way of saying that I don't see Leonard Williams dropping to five. Just my two cents.[/quote]


Because Kerrigan is such a huge drop off that the chance to pick up another good player is ridiculous. If you remember before he got hurt Jarvis Jenkins looked like a stud and, what would you say then is Kerrigan and a rock solid Jenkins not worh Watt, I think so. Especially with how much we did and still need help.

Trading back is the way to go now. we need to draft OG, RT, DT and S in that order. ( I think we might have a competent but not all pro in Compton at RT and our Gaurds are horendous, hopefully Long can stup up and we only need one)

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

Everyone is complaining about trading back because you don't have faith in the administration to make quality picks, but this is not the same administration and I think we will have a real GM come the draft. I don't think the last draft was bad at all. Murphy looks like a solid starter, Moses is a bust, Long who knows and then you have Breeland in the 4th who looks to be competing for the top CB in the league in a couple years. That is s pretty good haul for not having a first rounder.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102471]I would have no issues with it, I was asking Chico how he would justify it, I already said take BPA, if you feel it is Cooper, take him[/quote]

Fair enough. Sorry to intervene.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

BPA only works if you develop a formula to measure skill and secondary positions against linemen. That is a difficult proposition without a solid formula to establish a value rating system that allows all positions to remain on the same scale. I think rating systems like that are too arbitrary inherently and it's more important to draft from a weighted BPA system. you establish your needs in order, and then multiply the players grade's by the their positions weighted need within your predetermined 'needs'. This allows the best of both worlds. And if nothing else gives you a frame of reference when making intelligent decisions come draft day.

You need a Billy Bean kind of mind to run these figures for you.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Monksdown;1102493]BPA only works if you develop a formula to measure skill and secondary positions against linemen. That is a difficult proposition without a solid formula to establish a value rating system that allows all positions to remain on the same scale. I think rating systems like that are too arbitrary inherently and it's more important to draft from a weighted BPA system. you establish your needs in order, and then multiply the players grade's by the their positions weighted need within your predetermined 'needs'. This allows the best of both worlds. And if nothing else gives you a frame of reference when making intelligent decisions come draft day.

You need a Billy Bean kind of mind to run these figures for you.[/quote]
If I've learned anything since following the Redskins, it's that every person (EXCEPT RB) has a direct correlation between high draft picks and success.

It's no surprise that Trent Williams/Chris Samuels are brilliant while guys like Tom Compton and the other 50 lineman drafted since aren't.

We could spend our fifth pick on any position and it may be enough to shift the talent level and chemistry and bring us to the next level.

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is BPA means exactly what it should. Draft the player you think is the absolute best at his job. It's not easy to differentiate between guys when you have so many resources between tape, combines and practices.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=IrMitchell;1102497]If I've learned anything since following the Redskins, it's that every person (EXCEPT RB) has a direct correlation between high draft picks and success.

It's no surprise that Trent Williams/Chris Samuels are brilliant while guys like Tom Compton and the other 50 lineman drafted since aren't.

We could spend our fifth pick on any position and it may be enough to shift the talent level and chemistry and bring us to the next level.

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is BPA means exactly what it should. Draft the player you think is the absolute best at his job. It's not easy to differentiate between guys when you have so many resources between tape, combines and practices.[/quote]

I don't disagree with you at all. But I would argue that two B rated players in a team with multiple needs would have a greater impact on success than an A player.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Monksdown;1102500]I don't disagree with you at all. But I would argue that two B rated players in a team with multiple needs would have a greater impact on success than an A player.[/quote]
Then you take yourself out of the mix to get a Khalil Mack which I don't think is a smart choice at 4-12.

Remember that premier talent is shortlived in the NFL. Just when you get yourself a Ryan Kerrigan, Brian Orakpo is gone. You don't get a lot of chances at that pool of players.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=hutch17;1102488]Because Kerrigan is such a huge drop off that the chance to pick up another good player is ridiculous. If you remember before he got hurt Jarvis Jenkins looked like a stud and, what would you say then is Kerrigan and a rock solid Jenkins not worh Watt, I think so. Especially with how much we did and still need help.

Trading back is the way to go now. we need to draft OG, RT, DT and S in that order. ( I think we might have a competent but not all pro in Compton at RT and our Gaurds are horendous, hopefully Long can stup up and we only need one)[/quote]

Everyone looks like a stud in pre season

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

Alright, if there's an impact player like say a DT or DE you stay put and draft him. In the 2nd round if the next choice is equal to others then trade down a few spots and get more picks.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1102517]Alright, if there's an impact player like say a DT or DE you stay put and draft him. In the 2nd round if the next choice is equal to others then trade down a few spots and get more picks.[/quote]

Not a bad strategy.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102528]Not a bad strategy.[/quote]

Yeah, no strategy is full proof, but like the old saying goes, better a round too early than a pick too late

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

I hate the trade down talk.
You only trade down out of the top 5 pick if a team wants to take a premiere player, think ricky williams.

Top 5 pick should be an impact player that starts from day one.
We need another Trent Williams or Sean Taylor quality player so it's in our best interest to stay at 5 if one of those type of players is available.

adding second round picks does nothing for us.
Top 5 pick should be a can't miss player.

Second round picks you end up with players like Jarvis Jenkins, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Devin Thomas and David Amerson if you aren't careful.

Basically, Don't do it unless you have some jackass like the Saints and Ditka calling for a player!

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102451]They said that about Aldon Smith, and I see [B]Winston [/B]being a great player, I would put those OL there too just didnt for that statement[/quote]

If Winston is a great player, we need to take him, because we need a starting quality QB badly.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102560]If Winston is a great player, we need to take him, because we need a starting quality QB badly.[/quote]

I see a more athletic Ben Roethlisberger in him. I really do but you know people talk about "character issues"

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102563]I see a more athletic Ben Roethlisberger in him. I really do but you know people talk about "character issues"[/quote]

Character issues would still make him a more athletic Roethlisberger, right?

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102563]I see a more athletic Ben Roethlisberger in him. I really do but you know people talk about "character issues"[/quote]

I admit, I am a little leery of Winston, and not just for character issues. I have a hard time seeing him as a style fit within an offense like Gruden's. But granting that you are correct, taking him at #5 rather than trading down is a no-brainer, as you have said.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102560]If Winston is a great player, we need to take him, because we need a starting quality QB badly.[/quote]

He could be your next Johnny Football with his attitude and your #1 pick be another questionable pick or draft choice. That's the last thing the FO needs after going 4-12, the safe pick would be Mariotta or wait till the later rounds and draft Brian Hogan Stanford QB.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

I don't want Winston, just doesn't strike me as a pure passer and franchise QB.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1102577]I don't want Winston, just doesn't strike me as a pure passer and franchise QB.[/quote]

Just curious, why don't you think he is a passer???

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Skinsfanatic;1102569]Character issues would still make him a more athletic Roethlisberger, right?[/quote]

Yeah, depending on what you define as a character issue.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

Regardless of whether Winston is the next big thing or a bust, coming in now would be the worst possible timing for him to come. Shadows of RG3, tons of scandal, shitty record. Talk about setting up someone to fail. If we were to (god forbid) draft a QB early, we need someone of the strongest mental character to even have a chance.

Winston is a pretty good QB, but he still has some growing up to do and DC is not the place to do it right now.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102591]Just curious, why don't you think he is a passer???[/quote]

Two problems I have with Winston... he throws a lot of picks (some weren't his fault but a lot were just like any other qb).

Other problem I have is his odd realese. Just takes a while but he can throw rockets.

He also had a superior oline and it is obvious the skins will take years to develop an oline. Rather do what Seattle did and build a team and then find your QB... Even in the late first round.

Only team that won a super bowl with a top QB in the draft (like a top 5 pick) in the past 10 years were the colts. Even with manning they didn't win until they built a team around him.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

Quake to me he just doesn't seem to have that it factor as a pocket passer. Also he's not that accurate when it comes to the "easy" throws. Also the dude is just apparently dumb off the field and I really don't want to hear about drama and shit any longer

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

Stop with the drafting a QB talk already.

Fix the freakin' lines. Have we not learned anything these past years?

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=British Andy;1102600]Stop with the drafting a QB talk already.

Fix the freakin' lines. Have we not learned anything these past years?[/quote]

OK, then whom do we draft on the lines who will be available at 5?

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102608]OK, then whom do we draft on the lines who will be available at 5?[/quote]

Andrus Peat, Leonard Williams, or that dude from Iowa.

La'ell Collins as an early 2nd could be a nice steal too

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

IMO we can't draft Scherff or Peat. Even if we play them at RT, draft slotting and the end of rookie contracts means that we'll be paying two left tackle salaries. Such would be salary cap hell.

Actually that's why I might want to trade down. Grab a tackle later in the first who will be capable and whom we can pay a RT salary. Then we could use an extra pick from trade on a guard.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

We have a lot of holes on this roster. Conventional wisdom would be to trade down and acquire more picks. But this rosters got way to many pretenders in important positions. We need to put some superior talent in the trenches. If we could trade back and still grab a guy like Brandon Scherff, Cedric Ogbuehi, Andrus Peat, or Ronnie Stanley. I would be completely satisfied with one of those guys at RT. If we could pick an extra second in the process. It make it all the better. The guy I really want is Scherff. He a day one starter with all pro talent.

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=Lotus;1102608]OK, then whom do we draft on the lines who will be available at 5?[/quote]

Unless Williams is there, we don't. We see what offers come in and try to trade back a few spots only. Then we pick the best lineman available from the several that warrant a say top half of the first round pick of which there should be a few.

It bears repeating that it is the identifying/evaluating of draft talent that we have an issue with and that certainly needs fixing (being dealt with on other threads.)

Re: How the draft looks if we trade down
 

[quote=British Andy;1102642]Unless Williams is there, we don't. We see what offers come in and try to trade back a few spots only. Then we pick the best lineman available from the several that warrant a say top half of the first round pick of which there should be a few.[/quote]

I think you have the right idea but you might have the wrong player. This is a passing league, as you know, and I think having Randy Gregory opposite Ryan Kerrigan would give a major boost to our pass rush. Also, unlike others, I haven't given up on Jason Hatcher as an inside pass rusher. Nevertheless, if Gregory isn't there but Williams is, I suppose the Skins might feel like they have to take Williams.

I wouldn't have a problem with trading down into the the middle of the first round to pick up another second round selection. One or more of Ronnie Staley, Andrus Peat, Brandon Scherff, and La'el Collins should be available in the middle of the first round. Scherff and Collins could probably play RG as well as RT.

Of course, I'm also hoping that the Skins can pick up some OL and DL talent in FA.