Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

Who has close ties to Tampa, Allen or Gruden? That's the guy to bank on.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1102755]I just like to know we haven't been able to develop folks in the secondary...???

Folks this is a good example of our dysfunction. Like the arguement of talent and coaching issues on the defense...we also have problems developing a plan and scouting for corners and safeties from a personel perspective.

I'd just like to know for once what was the plan to replace Sean Taylor at free safety? This issue has been going on since 2007. Wtf!!! Why can't we solve this position?[/quote]

To be fair, we drafted Laron Landry in the first round to be a replacement. Obviously that did not work out, but he was was the stud we all thought could do the job...

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Lotus;1102790]No one here is arguing against the idea that Morris has coached poorly. But it is ALSO true that he has not been given the tools to work with.

To understand this, please answer the question I asked before: what capable, long-term starter help has Morris been given specifically at safety?[/quote]Your question doesn't apply to why the redskins secondary has sucked the past few seasons. Vet players were added, like Merriweather and Clark.

But just to humor you: The redskins drafted Philip Thomas with a 4th rd and Rambo with a 6th rd in 2013. Remember this quote from Rambo: (Bills vs Skins) [URL="https://mobile.twitter.com/domo_lxxxvi/status/544535799837233152"] "The coaches require you to watch film." [/URL]
2012 they drafted Bernstine in the 7th. 2011 they drafted Gomes in the 5th.

So why dont we have capable long term starter help for safety, despite 4 picks the last 4 years? Shouldn't we have at least one starter from that?

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

ST was supposed to be our FS for the 10+ years and Laron was supposed to be our SS. When Sean died it forced them to put Laron in the FS position.

Laron got injured and didn't want to get the surgery that the team wanted him to get. That burned some bridges and produced his exit. They should let Philip Thomas to continue to develop as a starting SS and draft the next FS.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;1102786]The thing with Amerson, he seems to have gotten worse from his rookie season when all you heard in the off season is how he put on the muscle to help with press coverage. He really had 1 good game this season[/QUOTE]


But hey he's got talent!

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Mattyk;1102817]But hey he's got talent![/quote]Lol. Touche.

But is Amerson required to watch film? :)

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102819]Lol. Touche.

But is Amerson required to watch film? :)[/quote]

Does Rambo watch film when the Buffalo coaches aren't around to make him do it?

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1102822]Does Rambo watch film when the Buffalo coaches aren't around to make him do it?[/quote]Looked like it when the Bills played the Packers.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Lotus;1102790]
please answer the question I asked before: what capable, long-term starter help has Morris been given specifically at safety?[/quote]

[quote=HailGreen28;1102805]Your question doesn't apply to why the redskins secondary has sucked the past few seasons. [/quote]

Wait, the question of "who played safety?" doesn't apply to assessing the secondary?

This has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the Warpath. And, being so dumb, it makes ridiculous the condescending attitude that you have extended to several people here.

Try being both smarter and nicer.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

If Haslett had Sean Taylor back there everything would have looked different. So would be the case for any defensive coordinator. But he also didn't make the defense better than the sum of its parts. We were continually low in the points allowed and yards allowed categories the past two years.

So he didn't have above average players, and he didn't make the below average players that he did have perform any better. It screams average. He is an average coach. He gets out of his players exactly what their talent calls for.

You can't accept average at any level of the organization. Next, the talent evaluators need to get bounced. Because they can only be described as average, AT BEST.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

I wanted Haslett gone also, because guys aren't listening to him anymore after 5 years. Our defensive line is a full rebuild, we aren't drafting well, developing well. We got a bunch of guys that are old or backups, and Kerrigan lucks into sacks after 5 or 6 seconds. I don't really care what we do beyond the line, because it just won't matter. They have to do a better job on both lines, before we pay attention to skill positions. We need a bunch of a big nasties.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Lotus;1102827]Wait, the question of "who played safety?" doesn't apply to assessing the secondary?

This has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the Warpath. And, being so dumb, it makes ridiculous the condescending attitude that you have extended to several people here.

Try being both smarter and nicer.[/quote]Please try remembering YOUR OWN QUESTION before talking about being dumb. Or about being smarter or nicer.

YOU DIDN'T ASK "who played safety?". YOU ASKED:[quote=Lotus;1102790] [B]what capable, long-term starter help has Morris been given specifically at safety?[/B][/quote]

I answered that question, you just apparently block out that, like a lot of us would like to block out this season. So here's some footnotes to help you:

[quote=HailGreen28;1102805]Your question doesn't apply to why the redskins secondary has sucked the past few seasons. [B][U]Vet players were added, like Merriweather and Clark. (1)[/U][/B]

But just to humor you: The redskins drafted Philip Thomas with a 4th rd and Rambo with a 6th rd in 2013. Remember this quote from Rambo: (Bills vs Skins) [URL="https://mobile.twitter.com/domo_lxxxvi/status/544535799837233152"] "The coaches require you to watch film." [/URL]
2012 they drafted Bernstine in the 7th. 2011 they drafted Gomes in the 5th.

[B][U]So why dont we have capable long term starter help for safety, despite 4 picks the last 4 years? Shouldn't we have at least one starter from that? (2)[/U][/B][/quote]

1) A team can address a position WITHOUT LONG TERM STARTER HELP, by signing vets. Nobody thought Clark was a long term help here. Some thought Meriweather wasn't a long term help here. But the idea was the vets could help us now. The topic of conversation here is the defense CURRENTLY sucks, with disagreement on how much is the coaches fault. Hog and I weren't talking about the future. We were talking about the here and now. I didn't say anything about long term before your question. You're asking that, while knowing we had brought in TWO VETS trying to fill that role, so your question doesn't even apply to why the secondary has sucked under Morris. The Skins were trying to "win now", and the debate is "why haven't we won". Not "what are our long-term prospects".


2) Even though we got two vet safeties during Morris' tenure to improve our secondary, we have not ignored the position in the draft. The picks have been across basically across the board, and if you get anywhere near 50% of picks right you are drafting unbelievably well, but 4 picks the last 4 years on 2 out of 22 positions (counting the reg. 11 O and D), shouldn't one of the picks ended up a reliable starter?

To sum this up: Vets haven't worked, and draftees haven't worked. Could still be our FO, but another common denominator is coaching. And as many people have commented, including here, ES, hail22.com, our safeties blow coverages. They aren't just getting to the right places and getting beat athletically, they aren't even going to the right place. Multiple seasons now that has been the case. That's on the coaches, to get the players to go to the right place, or put in other guys who can. If they can't, it's the coaches fault, regardless of how much (if) the players are at fault.

And again, next time please remember what your actual question is, especially when you quote it in the same dang post. (Would like to say dumbest, but there's another poster here that's made even worse posts. Let's just say it's someone who loves Eli, and cops even when they do wrong, and leave that there.)

HTTR

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1102829]If Haslett had Sean Taylor back there everything would have looked different. So would be the case for any defensive coordinator. But he also didn't make the defense better than the sum of its parts. We were continually low in the points allowed and yards allowed categories the past two years.



So he didn't have above average players, and he didn't make the below average players that he did have perform any better. It screams average. He is an average coach. He gets out of his players exactly what their talent calls for.



You can't accept average at any level of the organization. Next, the talent evaluators need to get bounced. Because they can only be described as average, AT BEST.[/QUOTE]


Agreed, the bar needs to be raised across the board. Of course we've known this for years.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

Matty, Smoot, if I am being too rude, lemme know and I will apologize. I am mad because I feel Lotus and Hog1 are deliberately missing obvious points I am making, that they are smarter than this.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102835]Matty, Smoot, if I am being too rude, lemme know and I will apologize. I am mad because I feel Lotus and Hog1 are deliberately missing obvious points I am making, that they are smarter than this.[/quote]

I haven't paid any attention to this thread to be honest.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102835]Matty, Smoot, if I am being too rude, lemme know and I will apologize. I am mad because I feel Lotus and Hog1 are deliberately missing obvious points I am making, that they are smarter than this.[/quote]

is this an example of wet-snitching?

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

both the Haslett threads are locked so i will post here re my thoughts on Has mat ...

1. orakpo is his litmus test imo. haslett had 5 years to develop him ... and orakpo is the same player he is in 2014 as we was when he was drafted.

that is a huge failure imo. Orakpo's physique was cut from stone by the football gods. the ceiling was unlimited for him ... yet he regressed under haslett. he never learned another move beside the outside leverage bull rush.

2. haslett didnt try enough adjustments. he had bottom 15 defenses every year yet he refused to switch ends orakpo and kerrigan unless injury and the times they did switch ends, it seemed like we got positive results. perhaps orakpo said he only rushes from the right side .. idk.

3. haslett overly focused and relied on the pass rush ... and then failed to create a pass rush. I think Has Mat had input on the FAs this past year and they decided to neglect the secondary and sign hatcher, re-up orakpo (the right move imo at the time), re-up riley (right move at time).

i think the success of has mat's scheme depended on the pass rush getting home consistently, and he failed to create pressure consistently = total scheme failure = corners left on island for 5 seconds when scheme is only designed for 3 seconds .. no real deep secondary help on all out blitz bc idea is QB wont have to wait for WR to get far down field ...

4. too many mental errors. it is on the players to make plays and run the play that is called .... but after so many errors, the blame has to start to fall on the coach

5. has mat is just a "basic" dude. below average, simple thinking. everything needs to go right for him to succeed.

we need someone who can coach and scheme to make up for our roster weaknesses.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1102838]is this an example of wet-snitching?[/quote]???

I am asking if I am in the wrong, regardless of whether Lotus or Hog are ducking my points.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102842]???

I am asking if I am in the wrong, regardless of whether Lotus or Hog are ducking my points.[/quote]

Hog1 and I are not ducking your posts. We're just not willing to enter the false either/or you have created.

Back to the issue, I asked for "capable, long-term" safeties given to Morris.

You (finally) gave:
Meriweather: really? The guy who has been hurt or suspended most of the time he has been here is "capable, long-term"?

Clark: really? He was done before he came back. He'll likely retire any day. He is neither capable nor long-term.

So, I ask again: what capable, long-term pieces has Morris been given at safety?

And if the answer is "none," then Hog1's original point remains true, that Morris wasn't given pieces.

Why is the notion that Morris has coached poorly AND has been given little to work with so difficult for you?

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102835]Matty, Smoot, if I am being too rude, lemme know and I will apologize. I am mad because I feel Lotus and Hog1 are deliberately missing obvious points I am making, that they are smarter than this.[/quote]
I'm not quite sure what to make of this.....lol.....cry........break my New Years resolution........
I am befuddled, bamboozled and Flummoxed!
I will try to seek out JoeRedskin for a....ruling? I must ignite the ...Bat Signal

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[QUOTE=HailGreen28;1102835]Matty, Smoot, if I am being too rude, lemme know and I will apologize. I am mad because I feel Lotus and Hog1 are deliberately missing obvious points I am making, that they are smarter than this.[/QUOTE]


Maybe you weren't explaining your point well enough?

Either way lets just move on. I think we can all agree we need to draft better, be smarter in free agency, and coach better. Tall tasks for this team that's all I know.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

I've never seen so much eloquent nonsense in a single thread before.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

just because you draft someone in the 2nd round doesn't mean they're not garbage.

at corner this year, we had hall (IR), porter (IR) amerson (played like garbage), biggers (garbage), breeland (great, considering), and rotating practice squad players. how the hell do you make a good defense with 1 competent corner.

safety was basically the same. clark (slow/washed up garbage), merriweather (misses 50% of games, gets confused, sometimes plays decently), ihenacho (IR), and the people behind them that didn't show in any way that they could get it done.

so, no one's arguing that the D staff sucked. they're just saying it's not an either/or. the staff sucked AND the players they were given were horrible and WAY below the standard NFL talent level (regardless of where or how we got them, or how good they might have been in college or 3 years ago or whatever).

no one can design a good defense w/ 1 corner and 0.5 of a safety. our defensive staff was set up to fail when we signed two injuries (porter/ihenacho) and a band aid (clark). once hall went down, it was over. haslett's track record has proven he's a 20-27th place defensive coordinator. no one's arguing that. you (HG28) are just being a bit obtuse in not noticing or admitting that while it is true that the staff sucked, it's ALSO true that the talent was truly truly horrible this year.

and we knew that going into last offseason, and the team knew that too, yet they failed to do anything meaningful about it beside hope and pray. F-.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=That Guy;1102880]you (HG28) are just being a bit obtuse in not noticing or admitting that while it is true that the staff sucked, it's ALSO true that the talent was truly truly horrible this year.[/quote]I don't think the talent is as horrible as you think. I don't know if Rambo will remain a starter at Buffalo, but he looked better with them than he did with us.

Haslett has been a let down on D wherever he's been in the NFL. Pitt, NO, doesn't matter. Talent doesn't matter in his case.

Morris.. sure didn't make the secondary more than a weakness this season. At least our front 7 could stop the run once in awhile, and Kerrigan's got his sacks.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1102685]I don't think any of those 3 gets hired, but Barry is the most interesting one to me[/quote]

Just curious, but why? His stint with the Lions looks pretty lousy, they ranked dead last in yards AND points. What makes you think he'll do any better here?

Just to be clear, I'm asking sincerely, I know nothing of him other than that 1 stat.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

Just agree to disagree, I happen to think you are the only one who thinks the secondary was talented HailGreen28, but talent is a subjective thing to a degree, and you seem to be defining it differently from others, let's just move on and talk about our prospects for DC. That's my 2 cents.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102884]I don't think the talent is as horrible as you think. I don't know if Rambo will remain a starter at Buffalo, but he looked better with them than he did with us.

Haslett has been a let down on D wherever he's been in the NFL. Pitt, NO, doesn't matter. Talent doesn't matter in his case.

Morris.. sure didn't make the secondary more than a weakness this season. At least our front 7 could stop the run once in awhile, and Kerrigan's got his sacks.[/quote]

Outside of decent flashes from Breeland, I'm not sure what you're seeing...

You mentioned Ryan Clark from the Gibbs 2.0 era, but that was 9-10 years ago. I may not be ready to send Amerson packing just yet, but he regressed from his rookie season which wasn't spectacular either. Every other position in the defensive backfield is pretty much crap.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

I miss Barry Wilburn.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Beemnseven;1102894]Outside of decent flashes from Breeland, I'm not sure what you're seeing...

You mentioned Ryan Clark from the Gibbs 2.0 era, but that was 9-10 years ago. I may not be ready to send Amerson packing just yet, but he regressed from his rookie season which wasn't spectacular either. Every other position in the defensive backfield is pretty much crap.[/quote]I am seeing guys get out of position, more than any athletic failing on their part. They are making mental mistakes, a lot more than getting beat physically. Either they are stupid, or the coaches Morris and Haslett aren't doing their jobs.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1102884]I don't think the talent is as horrible as you think. I don't know if Rambo will remain a starter at Buffalo, but he looked better with them than he did with us.

Haslett has been a let down on D wherever he's been in the NFL. Pitt, NO, doesn't matter. Talent doesn't matter in his case.

Morris.. sure didn't make the secondary more than a weakness this season. At least our front 7 could stop the run once in awhile, and Kerrigan's got his sacks.[/quote]

I agree that we have more talent than showed on the field, but there are, imo, gaping holes at Safety especially, that forced the defense to try to limit damage a lot of times, rather than play a winning hand. That said, Haslett had 5 years to let his unit's needs be known, and he didn't produce. I am glad we have moved on from him - a year too late - and hope that they go with either a strong young riser(always a risk), or a Wade Phillips type who has produced top tier defenses with the kind of players we have (minus safety).

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

what ever happened to our old DBs coach gray? is he still with Pitt or wherever he went?

i remember a lot of people inside and out of the skins liked him for bigger things . ..

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

If it works out, I think the hiring of Smith as [I]de facto[/I] GM makes W. Phillips a strong candidate for DC.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

The Redskins have no shot of landing Fangio unless the 49ers new coach fires him and brings in his own assistant coaches.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

I just don't see the fascination with Wade Phillips. I want a young aggresive DC like Bowles, which is what Ken Norton Jr. Brings. Phillips just doesn't show any emotion like Haslett. We need someone to get in the face of a player when they fuck up.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=That Guy;1102880]just because you draft someone in the 2nd round doesn't mean they're not garbage.

at corner this year, we had hall (IR), porter (IR) amerson (played like garbage), biggers (garbage), breeland (great, considering), and rotating practice squad players. how the hell do you make a good defense with 1 competent corner.

safety was basically the same. clark (slow/washed up garbage), merriweather (misses 50% of games, gets confused, sometimes plays decently), ihenacho (IR), and the people behind them that didn't show in any way that they could get it done.

so, no one's arguing that the D staff sucked. they're just saying it's not an either/or. the staff sucked AND the players they were given were horrible and WAY below the standard NFL talent level (regardless of where or how we got them, or how good they might have been in college or 3 years ago or whatever).

no one can design a good defense w/ 1 corner and 0.5 of a safety. our defensive staff was set up to fail when we signed two injuries (porter/ihenacho) and a band aid (clark). once hall went down, it was over. haslett's track record has proven he's a 20-27th place defensive coordinator. no one's arguing that. you (HG28) are just being a bit obtuse in not noticing or admitting that while it is true that the staff sucked, it's ALSO true that the talent was truly truly horrible this year.

and we knew that going into last offseason, and the team knew that too, yet they failed to do anything meaningful about it beside hope and pray. F-.[/quote]

I agree with most of this as it relates to our talent or lack of it at safety. Other than the short time Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry played together we have not had a good pair of safety's (needed to be a good defense) since we had Brad Edwards, Danny Copeland and Todd Bowles all the way back in 1992. That is a long time ago, which partly explains why we have not had a dominate defense since.
As is repeated over and over again during playoffs, you win (in the playoffs) by 1) good defense 2) running the ball. If you can not do this your chances to advance are lessened.
Our biggest weakness in our defense last season going into 2014 was at safety. But yet we spent most of our available cap money on Orakpo, Hatcher and DJax. Then we drafted a LB at the top of our draft. The huge hole at safety and to a lesser extent O-line has to be a priority to fix. We currently have terrible Safety's.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1102906]I just don't see the fascination with Wade Phillips. I want a young aggresive DC like Bowles, which is what Ken Norton Jr. Brings. Phillips just doesn't show any emotion like Haslett. We need someone to get in the face of a player when they fuck up.[/quote]

Difference is Wade Phillips has a MUCH better track record as a DC than Hazboro did.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1102906]I just don't see the fascination with Wade Phillips. I want a young aggresive DC like Bowles, which is what Ken Norton Jr. Brings. Phillips just doesn't show any emotion like Haslett. We need someone to get in the face of a player when they fuck up.[/quote]

Phillips gets his players to play for him, so that they don't F up. And gives them donuts when they succeed (j/k)

Phillips has been DC 7 times, from that his units performed to where he was either interim HC or given a HC job 6 times. I don't know what exactly that means, I take it that he is not a great HC, but knows how to work in a team environment and get his defenses to perform. His average stint at any job is about 3 years. In my opinion that would be a good thing, if he came in got the D going.

That said if we brought in a young aggressive guy that might be good too. I just want a competent D Coordinator, don't really care which style he has.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=Defensewins;1102907]I agree with most of this as it relates to our talent or lack of it at safety. Other than the short time Sean Taylor and LaRon Landry played together we have not had a good pair of safety's (needed to be a good defense) since we had Brad Edwards, Danny Copeland and Todd Bowles all the way back in 1992. That is a long time ago, which partly explains why we have not had a dominate defense since.
As is repeated over and over again during playoffs, you win (in the playoffs) by 1) good defense 2) running the ball. If you can not do this your chances to advance are lessened.
[B]Our biggest weakness in our defense last season going into 2014 was at safety. But yet we spent most of our available cap money on Orakpo, Hatcher and DJax. Then we drafted a LB at the top of our draft. The huge hole at safety and to a lesser extent O-line has to be a priority to fix. [/B]We currently have terrible Safety's.[/quote]
This is why I think the questions posed to Allen were legitimate. What fan or reasonable football analyst, going into last offseason didn't see RT and Safety as the top needs of our team. How did we address either? inadequately at best.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

Phillips would be a good stop gap and he's a master of the 3-4. We could do a lot worse. There's a lot more to being a good coach than emotion.

Re: Vic Fangio and other to be interviewed for Defense.
 

[quote=over the mountain;1102900]what ever happened to our old DBs coach gray? is he still with Pitt or wherever he went?

i remember a lot of people inside and out of the skins liked him for bigger things . ..[/quote]

Think he's with the Titans.

As for Phillips, he's a better DC than Haslett and a better HC than Gruden. His track record shows it