Re: JG or GM?
 

[quote]Ninety catches for how many yards??? You do the math.[/quote]

Let us remember where these catches were. How many WR screens did we run to Coles? How many little hitch patterns and curl routes did we run that didn't allow Coles to gain YAC? The system is more to blame with our WRs, and without a change in the system I expect similar results from out passing game. Moss and Patten are far cries from upgrades. We have speed, that's true, but even with that speed we need to complete passes which entails two things. 1) Actually throwing the ball that's something more than a 3 yard route or WR screen. 2) Having the WRs run routes that helps them get open and gives them a chance to USE their speed.

We need to establish an intermediate passing game 7-10 yards. This should be our bread and butter, as far as the passing game goes, this will allow us to use speed, and force the DBs and safeties to back up. We should take shots back field. In order to run effectively it takes more than our rejuvinated line. We need to keep them from constantly stacking the box, and we need to ADAPT THE SYSTEM FOR PORTIS. He's not John Riggins, he never will be, and I don't want him to be. Portis is a slasher that makes very good decesions as far as holes to take. He has good vision, great speed, and needs a hole about the size of a hamster to break one big. Rabach resigning and Jansen returning are great, but that won't do it alone. This system NEEDS to be revamped, and I hope Gibbs has been working harder on that than he did for draft preperation. A big part of that could be 3-4 WR sets. I know this isn't Gibbs MO, but welcome to the 2005 NFL, you have to spread defenses from time to time. It will help Portis, it will make teams respect the throw (if nothing else just get players away from the action), and it could really jumpstart a pathetic offense.

The biggest problem is redzone playcalling. Watching us run three times up the middle in the redzone last year made me sick, playaction from there works great, take it to the outside sometimes. Portis won't push the pile.

Basicly - mold this system around Clinton Portis, he's a great and versatile back that we spent a lot on. He wants the ball, he wants the yards, he wants the TDs. He has all the drive he needs to get it done, all he needs is a little help. That said - we need to throw the ball slightly more. We need to be seen as a two dimensional offense. We were predictable last year, that has got to go. If we had Alex Gibbs and Denver's line, sure, let's be predictable. We don't have either. Also, assuming our defense remains in the top 3rd of the league I think we can afford to take chances. Especially on their side of the field. Let's not handcuff the offense. I'm not asking for a Spurrieresque offense by any stretch, I want it to orbit around Portis - but throwing is essential in today's NFL.

Re: JG or GM?
 

You're right deseal, I was considerably disappointed in last year's playcalling. Not just in the redzone, but in critical situations. Like in that dallas game, we were killing dallas with the short passing game, and in the fourth quarter, we're forcing timeouts by running, which is great, but then on third and eight, we dont go for the kill with a short completion. We run the ball against a stacked D thats been stuffing us all game. They get the ball back, gamble and win. We lose again. That sucked. But there were several situations that could've change outcomes of games in which we played wwwaaayyyy to conservative, but part of that was Ramsey's itchy trigger finger, coupled with all the dropped balls... I think we were just too concerned with turning the ball over. Not that it wasn't a legitimate concern, but it shouldn't dictate how you play the game.

Re: JG or GM?
 

44 - 9. Where are the Gibbs haters?

I don't really like the idea of building an offense around Portis exclusively. There is nothing wrong with installing a few run plays designed for him, but keeping the basic Gibbs philosophy will prove more successful in time.

You just have to face the facts; Gibbs has been successful with power running games coupled with quality receivers who could get open deep - he has no reason to change that now and one season back from a 11 year absence isn't enough to prove his philosophy doesn't work. This draft has hopefully addressed some issues that probably were ignored by alot of us fans. We acquired big guys to run the football and possibly be moved to tight end. Regardless of what some say, these two areas are huge for Gibbs' offense to work. Sure, we need receivers who can get open down field, but if there anything to be understood from Gibbs' offense it is PROTECTION. That is the key to his offense.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Let us remember where these catches were. How many WR screens did we run to Coles? How many little hitch patterns and curl routes did we run that didn't allow Coles to gain YAC? The system is more to blame with our WRs, and without a change in the system I expect similar results from out passing game. Moss and Patten are far cries from upgrades. We have speed, that's true, but even with that speed we need to complete passes which entails two things. 1) Actually throwing the ball that's something more than a 3 yard route or WR screen. 2) Having the WRs run routes that helps them get open and gives them a chance to USE their speed.
[/QUOTE]


Have you ever considered that these WR screens and little hitch patterns were a result of the fact that both Coles and Gardner couldn't stretch the field last year? Maybe if they had the speed that we have now with Moss and Patten things might have been different. I believe Moss is an upgrade to Coles just for the simple fact that he will be able to get down the field, which is what Gibbs wanted initially. If Patten can just hold onto the ball consistently he is an obvious upgrade right there.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]44 - 9. Where are the Gibbs haters?

I don't really like the idea of building an offense around Portis exclusively. There is nothing wrong with installing a few run plays designed for him, but keeping the basic Gibbs philosophy will prove more successful in time.

You just have to face the facts; Gibbs has been successful with power running games coupled with quality receivers who could get open deep - he has no reason to change that now and one season back from a 11 year absence isn't enough to prove his philosophy doesn't work. This draft has hopefully addressed some issues that probably were ignored by alot of us fans. We acquired big guys to run the football and possibly be moved to tight end. Regardless of what some say, these two areas are huge for Gibbs' offense to work. Sure, we need receivers who can get open down field, but if there anything to be understood from Gibbs' offense it is PROTECTION. That is the key to his offense.[/QUOTE]


IF Gibbs doesn't want to change his style then why on earth would he trade for Portis and give him 50mil? Portis coming out of the denver system which is a zone blocking system which allows the RB's to cut back when the hole emerges, that's who Portis is, he's a system back, not a Gibbs power back who can run between the tackles he's not built for that.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=NY_Skinsfan]Have you ever considered that these WR screens and little hitch patterns were a result of the fact that both Coles and Gardner couldn't stretch the field last year? Maybe if they had the speed that we have now with Moss and Patten things might have been different. I believe Moss is an upgrade to Coles just for the simple fact that he will be able to get down the field, which is what Gibbs wanted initially. If Patten can just hold onto the ball consistently he is an obvious upgrade right there.[/QUOTE]


You don't have to be a blazer to stretch the field, I prefer to listen to what the opposing defenses said about our offense, the pass routes were very simple, and easy to read, that is route running not lack of speed.

There is a reason Portis said the opposing teams know our plays, because there was nothing deceptive about them.

Re: JG or GM?
 

I'm one of the folks who believes this team needs a GM-- and yes, I [I]do[/I] know what a GM does. But I think the question posed by this thread is unfair, because it doesn't allow for the possibility of having both the GM [I]and[/I] Joe Gibbs, which was a synergistic combo that propelled the Redskins to four Super Bowl appearances and three Lombardi trophies in the 80s and 90s.

Someone made the argument that maybe the reason the Redskins don't have a GM is that good ones don't grow on trees. Well, the problem I have with that argument is that this team [I]did[/I] have a good GM by the name of Charley Casserly, and Dan Snyder decided to boot him out the door because-- ostensibly-- Casserly couldn't coexist with Norv Turner. Now it's become clear that it was Snyder who couldn't coexist with a GM who wields anything resembling autonomous authority. Hell, even with Joe Gibbs, whom Snyder supposedly worships, Snyder has to be an equal voice in a triumvirate that includes his lackey, Vinny Cerrato. Joe Gibbs supposedly makes the final decisions, but those decisions are based in large part on the information and approval that Snyder and Cerrato give him.

However, given the limited options posed by this thread, I would certainly opt for Joe Gibbs [I]without[/I] a GM, over a GM with "anybody" as coach. You need both a good coach and a good GM (or an equivalent entity) to consistently succeed in this league, and right now, the Skins only have one part of that equation.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]I'm one of the folks who believes this team needs a GM-- and yes, I [I]do[/I] know what a GM does. But I think the question posed by this thread is unfair, because it doesn't allow for the possibility of having both the GM [I]and[/I] Joe Gibbs, which was a synergistic combo that propelled the Redskins to four Super Bowl appearances and three Lombardi trophies in the 80s and 90s.

Someone made the argument that maybe the reason the Redskins don't have a GM is that good ones don't grow on trees. Well, the problem I have with that argument is that this team [I]did[/I] have a good GM by the name of Charley Casserly, and Dan Snyder decided to boot him out the door because-- ostensibly-- Casserly couldn't coexist with Norv Turner. Now it's become clear that it was Snyder who couldn't coexist with a GM who wields anything resembling autonomous authority. Hell, even with Joe Gibbs, whom Snyder supposedly worships, Snyder has to be an equal voice in a triumvirate that includes his lackey, Vinny Cerrato. Joe Gibbs supposedly makes the final decisions, but those decisions are based in large part on the information and approval that Snyder and Cerrato give him.

However, given the limited options posed by this thread, I would certainly opt for Joe Gibbs [I]without[/I] a GM, over a GM with "anybody" as coach. You need both a good coach and a good GM (or an equivalent entity) to consistently succeed in this league, and right now, the Skins only have one part of that equation.[/QUOTE]

What does a GM do then? Because maybe I'm confused about it then

Re: JG or GM?
 

I may be wrong but I thought that I remember Gibbs saying that he and Bobby used to but heads sometimes on players. Anyhow Gibbs then went on to say that Bobby would draft or bring in players and Gibbs & Co. would weed them out. If this is true then Gibbs kinda had final say, but Bobby did give him some pretty good prospects.

I think in the same discussion, when Bobby brought in D. Green Gibbs thought that Bobby was trying to save money.

I think that I heard him say this stuff on the NFL network but I am not sure so take it or leave it...

Re: JG or GM?
 

Does anyone doubt that if Gibbs wanted a GM, and felt it was necessary, he wouldn't hesitate to bring someone in??

I remember him saying that he's willing to try anything, but he liked the current setup in the front office.

Last year worked out pretty well personnel wise, let's wait to see how year 2 plays out.

Just give it a chance guys. The kneejerk reactions here lately have been comical. We haven't even seen these guys play, and some of us are already convinced it was a bad draft.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Seriously. People are calling for blood already. If anything, Rodgers should almost immediately impact the D.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Last year was frustrating (as were the many years before it). Mainly (well other than the Brunnell factor) because most of us on this site believe this team has real talent. Also, most of us believe Gibbs is an excellent coach who can learn and adjust but he didn't seem to demonstrate that ability last year since everyone and their brother was calling our offense vanilla. Even when he made adjustments that seem to be working, he didn't stick with them.

I personally LIKE the offseason moves we have made this year (yes - even Campbell). They seem to be an adjustment from past years - win now, trade/sign players now and hope the chemistry will develop. Gibbs, as GM, seems to be saying - build for next year and the following year, not this year. I think (and this is purely my opinion) that Gibbs believes that the talent on this team can get him to the playoffs this year (maybe further) and that it is important to lay the groundwork for the future. As a GM, Gibbs' seems to have learned from the "Brunnell Factor" - don't overpay for vets. From the departures of Smoot & Pierce, Gibbs got the message that, generally in today's game, money talks and "core Redskins" walk. Today's GM game is about getting the next gen players ready before the current starters sniff the big payday.

So it seems to me, Gibbs the GM is learning from his mistakes and getting replacement players ready while making sure potential players are ready to step in. (BTW - here is a nice article on why the Campbell pick makes sense: [url]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050426-121046-3165r.htm[/url]).

If Gibbs the coach has learned about the current game during the 2004 season and adjust his system to adapt to and exploit the new defenses - all will be well in Redskin land.

If not, pass the hemlock please - Cause if Gibbs, the only coach who can overrule Snyder/Cerrato and keep Danny Boy in line, can't win - No one can.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]IF Gibbs doesn't want to change his style then why on earth would he trade for Portis and give him 50mil? Portis coming out of the denver system which is a zone blocking system which allows the RB's to cut back when the hole emerges, that's who Portis is, he's a system back, not a Gibbs power back who can run between the tackles he's not built for that.[/QUOTE]


I suppose you only read what you want to read, but I did say there is nothing wrong with installing a few plays designed FOR Portis, but there is no sense in overhauling the ENTIRE offense and building it around one player. Joe Washington wasn't a power back...from what I remember, Washington was something around the size of Portis..maybe even smaller. If Gibbs' intention was to change his offense completely, then we would have been running nothing but zone blocking running plays from day one. This, obviously, was not the case.

Re: JG or GM?
 

This is the first rhetorical poll I've seen on the Warpath.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Last year if you looked at the Redskins MLB position after Barrow went down, you would have said we're in trouble. But what happened, Pierce stepped up. For that reason, you can't say now whether any positions were truly upgraded or downgraded. The fact is we don't know yet. For all you know, McCune is the next Pierce, Garnell Wilds will become a Pro-Bowler when Springs and Rogers tear their ACLs, and for all you know Mark Brunell will replace Patrick Ramsey as the starter and play at a pro-bowl level.

Some of those things don't seem so likely, but exactly how likely did you think it was that Antonio Pierce would become the player he was last year? So give it time before you start passing judgment.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]I suppose you only read what you want to read, but I did say there is nothing wrong with installing a few plays designed FOR Portis, but there is no sense in overhauling the ENTIRE offense and building it around one player. Joe Washington wasn't a power back...from what I remember, Washington was something around the size of Portis..maybe even smaller. If Gibbs' intention was to change his offense completely, then we would have been running nothing but zone blocking running plays from day one. This, obviously, was not the case.[/QUOTE]

Your way off base here, a few play's? Did we give up everything for a few plays for Portis? If your going to make comparisons then get them right, Joe Washington was a third down back, we had a player taking the bulk of the handoff's his name was John Riggins, perhaps you heard of him? In Gibbs system as it stands Portis is a 3rd down back he will never last if we contiue to use him as he was last year, that's why JW wasen't a featured back.

If your not going to build your offense around a particular player and take advantage of his abilities, then you don't give up Champ, a second rd. pick, and 50 mil for him, it's that simple!

Re: JG or GM?
 

So what you're really trying to say is, you DON'T think Portis is our biggest offensive weapon? ;)

Re: JG or GM?
 

Isn't Portis' size comparable to Earnest Byner? We did fine with him

Re: JG or GM?
 

I definitely think Portis will be a great back for us. Granted, his YPC weren't his GREATEST, but the blocking schemes were not suited for him. As the season went on, the blocking schemes changed. I'd love to see his YPC in the first 8 games and the last 8.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Due to some boredom, I kind of disproved my own theory. Here is Portis' stats in the first half and second half of the season:

5.1 TB
3.5 NYG
4.1 DAL
2.9 CLE
2.1 BAL
4.8 CHI
4.1 GB

3.8 YPC First Half

4.3
4.8 CIN
2.2 PHI
2.8 PIT
4.8 NYG
3.5 PHI
3.1 SF
3.2 DAL

3.6 YPC Second Half

Also, take into account that we played Philly twice and the Steelers.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Your way off base here, a few play's? Did we give up everything for a few plays for Portis? If your going to make comparisons then get them right, Joe Washington was a third down back, we had a player taking the bulk of the handoff's his name was John Riggins, perhaps you heard of him? In Gibbs system as it stands Portis is a 3rd down back he will never last if we contiue to use him as he was last year, that's why JW wasen't a featured back.

If your not going to build your offense around a particular player and take advantage of his abilities, then you don't give up Champ, a second rd. pick, and 50 mil for him, it's that simple![/QUOTE]
I still dont get it!!! Why do people on here still insist that Champ would still be here, the FO didnt really want to get rid of him, the FO made an offer and he didnt like it. Also he did not want to be on the team any more. Champ got sick of having a different deffenseive coordinator every year, hell I am surprised that Arrington is even still with us. Anyhow, to make a long story short, the Redskins were going to loose Champ Bailey no matter what!!!!

Re: JG or GM?
 

Redskins - he's saying it was a waste of a trade if we don't use Portis correctly, which I agree with. Granted Bailey didnt want to be here, but we could have shipped him to a lot of places for great players!

Re: JG or GM?
 

I think we need a gm because everyone need help.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Seriously, we should just hire someone that we call GM and lives in an Emerald Palace. That would seriously satisfy some people.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Seriously, we should just hire someone that we call GM and lives in an Emerald Palace. That would seriously satisfy some people.[/QUOTE]

I've decided to go ahead and give [I]myself[/I] the title of General Manager....now about that Emerald Palace

Re: JG or GM?
 

Gibbs, and lose the DANNY...

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Your way off base here, a few play's? Did we give up everything for a few plays for Portis? If your going to make comparisons then get them right, Joe Washington was a third down back, we had a player taking the bulk of the handoff's his name was John Riggins, perhaps you heard of him? In Gibbs system as it stands Portis is a 3rd down back he will never last if we contiue to use him as he was last year, that's why JW wasen't a featured back.

If your not going to build your offense around a particular player and take advantage of his abilities, then you don't give up Champ, a second rd. pick, and 50 mil for him, it's that simple![/QUOTE]

We didn't give up Champ Bailey...Champ WANTED to leave - get it straight!

Don't be so condescending! I have not said to bring Portis in for just a few plays - I said to throw in a few plays that Portis excels in while letting him develop with other running formations that made Joe Gibbs a hall of fame coach. And as I have said which is quite logical and exactly how things were in Gibbs 1.0, put the big guy(s) in on short yardage plays because THAT is what was missing from our offense this past season.

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]I've decided to go ahead and give [I]myself[/I] the title of General Manager....now about that Emerald Palace[/QUOTE]
I think that you would make a fine GM...

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]We didn't give up Champ Bailey...Champ WANTED to leave - get it straight!

Don't be so condescending! I have not said to bring Portis in for just a few plays - I said to throw in a few plays that Portis excels in while letting him develop with other running formations that made Joe Gibbs a hall of fame coach. And as I have said which is quite logical and exactly how things were in Gibbs 1.0, put the big guy(s) in on short yardage plays because THAT is what was missing from our offense this past season.[/QUOTE]


NO! We traded Champ because he wanted out that doesn't mean you give a player away? It is absolutly irrelevant why he's out of here, the only thing that matters is what we recieved for him and why. You make it sound as if Denver was the only option, we could have recieved 2 #1's for Champ with a franchise tag, so why give up a 2nd rd pick and Champ for a player who doesn't fit in to what Gibbs runs? Shawn Alexander was available at the time who I wanted and would have fit Gibbs system and wouldn't have cost us more than Champ straight up, and yet we didn't even consider him, we had to have Portis, why? Because Gibbs saw 1600yds and didn't see the scrubs before him who also ran for 1600yds or there abouts in the Denver system, Mike Anderson? Olandis gary? Ruben Droughns? 3 players who were nothing until denver and nothing after they left denver. [Droughns soon to be] he didn't see how Portis obtained those yards and it wasen't power football!

Make up your mind on what's missing is it Jansen, or a power back? You defend Portis because of a pourous line, then you defend Gibbs because we don't have a big back, as if a big back is going to run through unblocked D-linemen. Either he fits the system or he doesn't?

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=offiss] Because Gibbs saw 1600yds and didn't see the scrubs before him who also ran for 1600yds or there abouts in the Denver system, Mike Anderson? Olandis gary? Ruben Droughns? 3 players who were nothing until denver and nothing after they left denver. [Droughns soon to be] he didn't see how Portis obtained those yards and it wasen't power football![/QUOTE]

Offiss, do you really believe this? Do you truly think that Joe Gibbs, the winner of three superbowl rings, would look at one statistic (1600 yards) and say he's are guy? I think you need to step back and do some research on the type of man Joe Gibbs is....there is a reason why the Redskins won those rings with him as the head coach. Have some faith in the man, one not-so-great season from Portis doesn't mean it won't work out.

Re: JG or GM?
 

I love how some of you arrogantly assume that those of us who support the idea of having a GM don't actually know what a GM is, and propose that we would be easily mollified if, say, the Redskins simply changed Vinny Cerrato's title to "General Manager", or if they simply hired some Shmoe of the street and gave him the same title.

Read this article, and tell me whether the Redskins' current front office setup adequately exemplifies all of the desirable traits ascribed to "good" general managers in this article:

[url]http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Features/NFL+Features/2003/gmchecklist121803.htm[/url]

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=NY_Skinsfan]Offiss, do you really believe this? Do you truly think that Joe Gibbs, the winner of three superbowl rings, would look at one statistic (1600 yards) and say he's are guy? I think you need to step back and do some research on the type of man Joe Gibbs is....there is a reason why the Redskins won those rings with him as the head coach. Have some faith in the man, one not-so-great season from Portis doesn't mean it won't work out.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say not-so-great. Maybe not-like-his-first-few-years type of season, but he was getting accustomed to new blocking AND new coaching and players and still managed to be one of the top rushers in the league. Granted, his YPC was MUCH lower this year, I blame (here's my excuses :) ) that on the blocking schemes earlier in the year along with Brunell not giving ANY passing support.

Re: JG or GM?
 

malcolm,

not-so-great, not-like-his-first-years, what's the difference? the point is not to give up on Gibbs...he knows what he is doing. A fan doesn't have the behind the scenes knowledge of what goes on when Gibbs picks a player. We shouldn't be throwing out these lame excuses just because he didn't put us in the playoffs in his first season back. I too blame the blocking schemes, but I also blame the lack of o line (missing jansen), really poor qb play in the beginning of the season, and also, not so much a blame but a reason for the poor record was playcalling ( oh, and let's not forget all the dropped balls). basically it's a little bit of everthing that caused us to come out at 6-10. It's not just the playcalling, it's not just the poor o line, it's not just the qb's fault...it's everything....

I'll be the first to admit I don't know a damn thing about running a football team. I don't really know if it is better to have a GM or not in this situation. So I am just going to sit back and watch my favorite team this year coached by my favorite coach. If it doesn't work out again, oh well, it's not like I will ever stop being a Redskin fan. If that were the case I wouldn't be typing this now after the 13 or so miserable seasons since Gibbs first go 'round. I am not a religious man at all but i do have faith in the fact that Gibbs will get the Redskins back to it's winning ways. He said he would when he came back next year and that's all I need.

Re: JG or GM?
 

Hmmm OK. I really wasn't talking about Gibbs, but since you bring it up I will. I don't have any doubts he will return the team to greatness. I just think that he's human like everyone else and needs some time to get back into the game. He saw what worked and what didn't last year and I think he's going to make the changes necessary to improve the offense for this year (offensive line pickups were a great start).

Re: JG or GM?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Hmmm OK. I really wasn't talking about Gibbs, but since you bring it up I will. I don't have any doubts he will return the team to greatness. I just think that he's human like everyone else and needs some time to get back into the game. He saw what worked and what didn't last year and I think he's going to make the changes necessary to improve the offense for this year (offensive line pickups were a great start).[/QUOTE]


I have said the same thing quite a few times, that there is a reacclamation process no doubt, 12 years is a long time to have your mind on something else other than football.

My only point has been that he is hindering the team long term with his personel decisions while he goes through this reacclamation process.

I have even stated on occasions all though I was dead set against the Brunell signing there is no way Brunell is as bad as he was last season, and as Gibbs starts getting things right in his head some of these players will start to look like more reasonable signings.

I agree with you MC that we will see a much different, more decisive Gibbs this season how much progress will he show remains to be seen, the one thing that scares me about that is he was so reluctent to make changes last season that where so obvious to most of us, whether or not you supported Gibbs with what he was doing or not, he seems to be very bull headed at times trying to force the issue [Brunell], rather than swallow his pride and move on, hopefully last season will go a long way to improving this season.

Re: JG or GM?
 

I agree that he was bullheaded, but I also think he's a man of his word. I think he stuck with Brunell for far too long, but I think it was an honesty issue rather than pride. The jury in my brain is still out as far as his personnel decisions for the future, but honestly it seems like he is building "players" rather than "mercenaries".

Re: JG or GM?
 

Exactly right Malcolm! I think having a team of mercenaries has hurt this team more than anything else....