Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1117170]Coming in the middle here ... but, was at the game. Came away feeling like neither Jay nor RGIII is close to what I had hoped they would be.

The more I thought about that, the deeper and more depressed I got.[/quote]

I cant wait till they get out of fed ex. that spot looked depressing on tv...zero energy. I feel terrible you were there to witness it...It looked absolutely horrible on tv.

People here at working are just laughing at the Skins. Litterally one guy saw me enter the building and he just started laughing...uncontrollably.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1117165]"You play to win the game"

Herm Edwards

Rather be 2-0 with lots of work to do than 0-2 with lots of work to do. And I want our backups to be better than our opponents we will need a lot of them at some point.[/quote]

nope, worst case we are 1-1, this was a throw away game where coaches should have been looking at our players and what they can do. I go back to the decision not to try for an end game field goal as partial proof that at least in one instance that was not their intent.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

i want to revisit the last play of the first half.

First, remove all throwable objects within 3 feet of you.

Then, pull the play up in your head. Lets all pause and remember.

Now sit in disbelief.

Reflect on our disaster at QB

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=Mattyk;1117142]Who is satisfied?

Personally I just don't think he can be properly evaluated when the OL was such a major problem.

Even on quick drops he was getting hit.[/quote]

I agree, but at some point shouldn't he be making his pre-snap reads and making adjustments at the line? I don't think he grasps that part of the game yet. The o-line was horrible, but RG3 could've made some adjustments at the line and changed the play or find his hot read.

While I agree that he can't be judged on last nights performance, he needs to show some more progress in terms of reading the defense prior to the snap. I can't remember the last time I saw RG3 audible out of a play.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1117167]Yeah, he wasn't going to get the 1st down running either. I like looking down the field first for a big play, then taking the shorter route, running wasn't necessarily a good option.[B] But you need to have some time in protection to actually take a shot down field. [/B]Didn't get much of that last night.[/quote]

assuming the play call is designed for a long pass play ... 5 step drop w pass pro knowing the ball will not come out right away.

if the play is not designed to give RG3 more than 3 seconds .. he cant be looking to make the big play.

He has to play within the system and what the other 10 guys on the field are expecting. Problem is he either doesnt understand the concepts or he just wants to play it his way.

on 3 step drops, we have consistently been told the QB is to plant his foot on step 3 and get rid of the ball quickly. I feel somewhat bad for RG3 last night bc he just hesitated a second after his 3rd step and then he would get hit.

on some plays his footwork was so bad you couldnt tell if he was doing a 3 step or a 1 step then shuffle.

RG3 cant look big play if the play call is a quick play. period.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2015/08/21/breaking-down-all-six-of-the-hits-on-robert-griffin-iii/?postshare=7241440164910242[/url]


A good breakdown on all the hits on RGIII. Some of these can be avoided by sliding in pocket and changing protection scheme at line.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Was at the game last night so I want to watch the TC feed. But here quick thoughts...


[B][U]Plusses:[/U][/B]

-Its only preseason *ducks head*

-RBs looked good from RB1 to RB4

-2nd team offense looked good. 2nd team OL actually had more playing experience then 1st unit. 2nd unit had Compton at LT vs Smith and Moses staying at RT.

-2nd-3rd team QBs looked good

-2nd-3rd team playcalling was good

-Back-up TEs made some plays in the passing game

Defense:

-First unit defense was better then last week

-Amerson was active and in position

-Dash, Duke were more active


This thread has quickly turned into Griffenfest! lol

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

I have not seen either game this year, but results and comments here are what I expected. This is preseason and most lose sight of trying young players out and that are most likely not ready yet. So much impatience. Give them growing pain xperience now. Not week 1.
RG3 continuing to show poorly despite all the excuses is disappointing. The 4th year player needs to show something more than he has. Time to bust out of his slump. How long has it been since he has played well consistently over a period of time? Three years ago? The time is now for him to show something. The RG3 apologists need to stop making excuses for him.
I would love for him to earn his his starting position. Please do not gift it to him while he is playing poorly.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1117167]Yeah, he wasn't going to get the 1st down running either. I like looking down the field first for a big play, then taking the shorter route, running wasn't necessarily a good option. But you need to have some time in protection to actually take a shot down field. Didn't get much of that last night.[/quote]Griffin was trying to make a play. Very few coaches (good coaches) will fault a playmaking QB for trying to make a play. Even Jay himself has said as much in the past. However you can't fumble period. I don't grade Griffin down for scrambling and trying to make a bigger play then the checkdown. If you think about the circumstances I knew he was going to try to make a play to extend the drive. But you gotta hold on to the ball.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=Defensewins;1117180]RG3 continuing to [COLOR="DarkRed"][I]show poorly[/I][/COLOR] despite all the excuses is disappointing....The RG3 apologists need to [COLOR="DarkRed"][I]stop making[/I][/COLOR] excuses for him.[/quote]Hmmmnnn....[quote=Defensewins;1117180][B][COLOR="DarkRed"]I have not seen either game this year, but[/COLOR][/B][/quote]

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=Defensewins;1117180]I have not seen either game this year, but results and comments here are what I expected. This is preseason and most lose sight of trying young players out and that are most likely not ready yet. So much impatience. Give them growing pain xperience now. Not week 1.
RG3 continuing to show poorly despite all the excuses is disappointing. The 4th year player needs to show something more than he has. Time to bust out of his slump. How long has it been since he has played well consistently over a period of time? Three years ago? The time is now for him to show something. The RG3 apologists need to stop making excuses for him.
I would love for him to earn his his starting position. Please do not gift it to him while he is playing poorly.[/quote]

You put a top 10 QB in there last night, same circumstances, same play call...You get a much better result. period.

But no we got to make excuses for a 4th year QB who continues to play like crap. Cant read a blitz, misses receivers running open, doesnt go/recognize hot reads, has terrible pocket presence, etc.

Its like we are talking about a rookie QB

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=over the mountain;1117177]assuming the play call is designed for a long pass play ... 5 step drop w pass pro knowing the ball will not come out right away.

if the play is not designed to give RG3 more than 3 seconds .. he cant be looking to make the big play.

He has to play within the system and what the other 10 guys on the field are expecting. Problem is he either doesnt understand the concepts or he just wants to play it his way.

on 3 step drops, we have consistently been told the QB is to plant his foot on step 3 and get rid of the ball quickly. I feel somewhat bad for RG3 last night bc he just hesitated a second after his 3rd step and then he would get hit.

on some plays his footwork was so bad you couldnt tell if he was doing a 3 step or a 1 step then shuffle.

RG3 cant look big play if the play call is a quick play. period.[/quote]

I'm gonna disagree a little (shocking to those who know me - NOT). Once protection broke down, and the picture posted earlier shows a good clean point in time view. He is looking to run, but he could also scramble to his right and see if a receiver shakes his guy, letting someone else make a play. I think back to the Giants game in RG3 year 1, one of his signature plays at extending a play.

I just think he can't or won't be that guy anymore, and he can't or won't be a film-study student of the game type guy, and that leaves him as an indecisive hesitant backup kinda guy. And sadly, even moreso after last night , that's who I now see RG3 as.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1117184]I'm gonna disagree a little (shocking to those who know me - NOT). Once protection broke down, and the picture posted earlier shows a good clean point in time view. He is looking to run, but he could also scramble to his right and see if a receiver shakes his guy, letting someone else make a play. I think back to the Giants game in RG3 year 1, one of his signature plays at extending a play.[/quote]But we don't/can't know whether Griffin was looking to run or scramble to make an off-schedule or scramble play. There wasn't any receiver open for the 1st down so Griffin stepped up into open space looking to escape the pocket from there we don't know what he was gonna do scramble or run because he fumbled the ball.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117185]But we don't/can't know whether Griffin was looking to run or scramble to make an off-schedule or scramble play. There wasn't any receiver open for the 1st down so Griffin stepped up into open space looking to escape the pocket from there we don't know what he was gonna do scramble or run because he fumbled the ball.[/quote]
ok, let's defend/debate an unknown decision because he could not do the function of holding on to the ball, in the start of his 4th year, after having fumbling issues in previous years.

At the game, and I know tv gives better views, I thought he was taking off to run. I think everyone around me thought he was taking off to run. Could he have pulled up, and thrown a beautiful lob to the wideout, I guess. But we will never know, because our 4th year starting qb could not hold onto the as he moved away from (as the Post article someone else linked to described it) "imaginary pressure".

edit: i must have lost the football in the one sentence. Unintentionally I assure you.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=SCRedskinsFan;1117151]But why is it, when RG is knocked out of the game like last night, the next quarterback, whether Colt or Kirk immediately moves the offense with essentially the same personnel on both sides?

I mean it's like a switch is flipped, and things pretty much work. Or am I just not seeing it right?[/quote]Well its [I][B]not[/B][/I] the same personnel on both sides.(e.g. Ziggy Ansah only played 8 snaps and was dominant vs our OL)

Also the playcalling is different and Kirk/Colt are better rhythm drop back passers then Griffin is right now.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1117186]At the game, and I know tv gives better views, I thought he was taking off to run. I think everyone around me thought he was taking off to run. Could he have pulled up, and thrown a beautiful lob to the wideout, I guess. But we will never know[/quote]So we agree? Sweet. We don't know either way. We know he left the pocket and fumbled. I grade him down for the fumble (or maybe you missed or are ignoring this?) but I don't grade him down for the decision to leave the pocket and try to make a play and maybe extend the drive over throwing a checkdown.

We can agree to disagree without all the other stuff.

Cheers.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117188]So we agree? Sweet. We don't know either way. We know he left the pocket and fumbled. I grade him down for the fumble (or maybe you missed or are ignoring this?) but I don't grade him down for the decision to leave the pocket and try to make a play and maybe extend the drive over throwing a checkdown.

We can agree to disagree without all the other stuff.

Cheers.[/quote]

Cheers

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[url]https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/08/21/grades-for-lions-redskins/[/url]
Redskins

–First-round pick Brandon Scherff (-3.0 grade) started at right guard for the second week in a row and struggled with Lions defensive tackle Tyrunn Walker. The former Saint beat Scherff for a sack and worked through and around Scherff for disruption in the running game as well.

–Rookie running back Matt Jones impressed on his eight carries last night, breaking a tackle to pick up a 24-yard gain through the heart of the Lions defense. He capped that drive with a one-yard touchdown run.

— [B][COLOR="Red"]Pressured on six of his eight dropbacks, Robert Griffin III’s three incompletions came about by way of a dropped pass, a batted pass and being hit as he threw. His supporting cast ensured that aside from ball security (two fumbles — the primary reasons behind his -3.8 grade), [COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="5"]there was little or nothing to draw from his performance.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

Top 5 graded players:

Shawn Lauvao (+2.0)

Ty Nsekhe (+2.0)

Jason Hatcher (+1.9)

Josh LeRibeus (+1.7)

Robert Thomas (+1.6)

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117190][url]https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/08/21/grades-for-lions-redskins/[/url]
Redskins

–First-round pick Brandon Scherff (-3.0 grade) started at right guard for the second week in a row and struggled with Lions defensive tackle Tyrunn Walker. The former Saint beat Scherff for a sack and worked through and around Scherff for disruption in the running game as well.

–Rookie running back Matt Jones impressed on his eight carries last night, breaking a tackle to pick up a 24-yard gain through the heart of the Lions defense. He capped that drive with a one-yard touchdown run.

— [B][COLOR="Red"]Pressured on six of his eight dropbacks, Robert Griffin III’s three incompletions came about by way of a dropped pass, a batted pass and being hit as he threw. His supporting cast ensured that aside from ball security (two fumbles — the primary reasons behind his -3.8 grade), [COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="5"]there was little or nothing to draw from his performance.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

Top 5 graded players:

Shawn Lauvao (+2.0)

Ty Nsekhe (+2.0)

Jason Hatcher (+1.9)

Josh LeRibeus (+1.7)

Robert Thomas (+1.6)[/quote]

McRib was a top rated player? I have no idea how to feel about this.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

its just funny as hell to hear folks say RG3 performance was just fine. Outside the fumbles, everything he did was fine. Wasnt his fault, playcalling and Oline. *sigh*

we are conditioned for these low expectations

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

his performance that can be graded is two fumbles, one completely unforced, a sustained concussion, his 2nd(3rd) one in the league, and the offense just looked wrong.

If he's the best, fine, but at least open the competition up for the rest of the camp instead of handing the job to a mediocre starter.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117187]Also the playcalling is different and Kirk/Colt are better rhythm drop back passers then Griffin is right now.[/quote]

Agree. The defense doesn't have to play straight up and can hedge against Griffin.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1117194]his performance that can be graded is two fumbles, one completely unforced, a sustained concussion, his 2nd(3rd) one in the league, and the offense just looked wrong.

If he's the best, fine, but at least open the competition up for the rest of the camp instead of handing the job to a mediocre starter.[/quote]

Mediocre? At this point RGIII would have to improve a lot to be considered average.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Sounds like RG will be ready for ravens.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=mredskins;1117197]Sounds like RG will be ready for ravens.[/quote]

:Flush:

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Just saw on Twitter -- there were 3 receivers open on the play when RGIII got hurt (I cannot seem to paste the picture here, but it seems pretty clear). On Dan Steinberg's feed.

Honestly, I so desperately want him to succeed -- unlike many on the site, I really like the guy. But I cannot say I am confident he will be able to pull it together given recent history. I truly hope to be wrong.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

I saw it too, it was 3rd and long and he had guys open for short gains but still

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Come on, no excuses, Griffin sucked last game.

1) YES, the O-line and lack of 1st down run success killed him. Analysis showed many hits/sacks within 2 second range, and some before WR turned around. But bad pocket presence, getting spooked into running into pressure, poor ball security / fumbles, missing open dump-off WR worsened things. And all these issues haven't improved in FOUR years.

2) Btw, last drive Griffin was playing against their 2nd string defense. Yes, the same one Colt played against and scored. I have no problem sending Griffin out there for that drive -- (a) playing against their 2's should have yielded points for some confidence, and (b) the injury was his own fault for the phantom fumble. Could've just thrown it away or dumped it off.

3) Willie Smith really really sucks. Don't we have a better backup plan? Really? So we're one injury away at LT from throwing the season?


Anyway, we WILL be better than that, with TW and many of our defensive starters back soon. But the game was the same crap we've been watching for years, brings shudders thinking about watching it for another year.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

I'm actually going to the Balt game...I've been preaching patience with RG3, but I really hope KC starts.

As others have mentioned, we are in Year #4...this is the best we get? Yuck!

I'd much rather have an INT down the field than a fumble in the back field.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Plusses:

Reggie Bell WR
Bates LB 3rd sack of pre-season
JJeffcoat
RB's Jones. Thompson, Williams
P way
Young TE's with 2 nice long gainers
Cut back on offensive penalties in pre-season games

Minusses:

Losing Hayward and Paul on ST's (huge losses)
OL protection and RGIII (horrible job by 1st stringers)
Bad tackling job by DB's and LB's
Where was Preston Smith? Didn't do much

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1117195]Agree. The defense doesn't have to play straight up and can hedge against Griffin.[/quote]Interesting opinion. From what I saw and have noticed, not just in preseason but as an overall tendency. Defenses react to formations and personnel. When we are running the ball with the 1st team we have been using run formations, under center with 1 TE, 2 RB, 2 WR.
Its even more obvious run when we bring in a OT at TE like we did early in the game. That's not the defense hedging against Griffin thats a defense reacting to obvious run tells.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1117194]his performance that can be graded is two fumbles, one completely unforced, a sustained concussion, his 2nd(3rd) one in the league, and the offense just looked wrong.[/quote]Sure he should be negatively graded for the fumbles (which I've said several times) but only the most jaded person would grade him down for sustaining a concussion. And the offense 'just looked wrong' isn't just a function of Griffin, its a function of the team to include individual personnel match-ups and gameplan/playcalling decisions.

[quote]If he's the best, fine, but at least open the competition up for the rest of the camp instead of handing the job to a mediocre starter.[/quote]Amen. It should have been an open competition. That way if Griffin or whomever would win the job out right thus eliminating the spectre of the hidden boogieman theories.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117345]

Amen. It should have been an open competition. That way if Griffin or whomever would win the job out right thus eliminating the spectre of the [B]hidden boogieman theories[/B].[/quote]

This is the Redskins, look at the last 2 decades.
We are one of the few franchises where the boogieman is real.

You can actually watch him try to boogie
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrfdrrSfLdU[/url]

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117344]Interesting opinion. From what I saw and have noticed, not just in preseason but as an overall tendency. Defenses react to formations and personnel. When we are running the ball with the 1st team we have been using run formations, under center with 1 TE, 2 RB, 2 WR.
Its even more obvious run when we bring in a OT at TE like we did early in the game. That's not the defense hedging against Griffin thats a defense reacting to obvious run tells.[/quote]

Defenses hedge against Griffin regardless of the formation with pressure. They are committing guys to pressure the QB (admittedly some pressure comes without blitzing):

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-pressure-plays-quarterbacks]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2014 Pressure Plays: Quarterbacks[/url]

Last year Griffin faced pressure 29.6% of all plays, while Cousins was pressured on 17.6% of his plays.

Kirk ranked 3rd among QBs pressure rate while Griffin was 31st.

The reason for this is obvious. Griffin ranks 36th among QBs in the difference in production between pressured plays v non pressured plays. Cousins ranks 11th in the difference in production.

Griffin sucks at handling pressure.

Everything loosens up when a QB can burn a blitz.

Every 3rd and 8 pressure is coming against Griffin, it may or may not come against Cousins.

You're 100% right about tendencies and predictability from last year. In the 1st half especially, this formation and personnel meant this play and that formation meant that play. Hopefully that will change.

Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

Great thread. I have held back on bashing RGIII but it's getting old now. He's on his last chance early this season.

If they want to start someone else in game 1 like KC I'm good with it.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1117366]Defenses hedge against Griffin regardless of the formation with pressure.[/quote]I didn't understand what you meant by 'hedging'. I was talking about defenses playing the run when we show certain formations/personnel grouping.

But now I see you meant defenses bringing pressure.

[quote]They are committing guys to pressure the QB (admittedly some pressure comes without blitzing):

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-pressure-plays-quarterbacks]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2014 Pressure Plays: Quarterbacks[/url][/quote]You mention a key point here: some pressure does come without blitzing. I used to have PFF which goes in depth in various metrics. But they actual chart how often a QB is pressured and how often they're blitzed. They record them as 2 separate stats because they are. I can remember the exact number off hand but Griffin does face more pressure then Kirk because Griffin holds the ball longer, which is different from Griffin facing more pressure because teams blitz him. And pre-Gruden Griffin was actually good vs the blitz. Neither here nor there but Griffin has regressed in almost every facet under Jay.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117378]Griffin has regressed in almost every facet under Jay.[/quote]

Good point. This troubles me as a Skins fan.

At first, I looked at this as Gruden insisting that Griffin work to improve his pocket skills in order to maximize his abilities as an NFL QB. That would be a good thing.

But now, I just wonder if there is a disconnect between the two men. It just looks like Jay hasn't tailored the offense at all to fit Robert's athletic abilities. Do the Skins plan to surprise their opponents in the regular season with plays designed for RGIII, or is this it? If this is it, I don't think things are going to work out in D.C. for one or both of these men.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

You might remember Robert had similar results much of the time under Shanahan as well....

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=30gut;1117378]But they actual chart how often a QB is pressured and how often they're blitzed. They record them as 2 separate stats because they are. I can remember the exact number off hand but Griffin does face more pressure then Kirk because Griffin holds the ball longer, which is different from Griffin facing more pressure because teams blitz him.[/quote]

Good point.

The article linked to earlier doesn't distinguish between extra rushers, protection breakdowns and holding the ball too long.

Re: Plusses and Minuses vs. Lions
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1117381]Good point. This troubles me as a Skins fan.

At first, I looked at this as Gruden insisting that Griffin work to improve his pocket skills in order to maximize his abilities as an NFL QB. That would be a good thing.

But now, I just wonder if there is a disconnect between the two men. It just looks like Jay hasn't tailored the offense at all to fit Robert's athletic abilities. Do the Skins plan to surprise their opponents in the regular season with plays designed for RGIII, or is this it? If this is it, I don't think things are going to work out in D.C. for one or both of these men.[/quote]

Griffin has said too that he wants to be more of a drop-back passer, and not be a "running QB" He likes the threat of the RO and to use it in moderation. So it's not so much that he's taking some sort of stand against Jay's offense. It's that he can't execute it the way Kirk and Colt can, and then he's goes "off-book" to what he knows best.