Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138733]They could [B]tie it to a lot of programs, work study, [/B][B]community service, etc[/B].[/quote]

I could totally get behind something like that......

Re: Democratic debates
 

Antithetical?
YOU are the man. Last time I used that was in a live chat with....Pliny the elder.

Re: Democratic debates
 

A major problem with free college is that it inherently devalues education. From an economical standpoint, education is a differentiating factor. Those motivated and able spend their time and resources on college education knowing it provides an advantage. Once it is free much of that advantage disappears. We will shift a major part of the young and able bodied out of the workforce into non-working roles for a period of time that they're are basically required to do because going without would be a major disadvantage. Meanwhile we'll also foster an even greater classification of the work force as surely those with the means would attend the "better" tuition based colleges. We end up in the same place and spent a bunch of money to do it. Free college doesn't solve the problem. It sounds fantastic but it is solves nothing.

Re: Democratic debates
 

The reality of economics is that some people will always have more than others. The best an economic system can do is provide freedom within that system so that opportunity can be generated and acted upon. Artificially generating "opportunity" doesn't work. In fact it is impossible. Artifical opportunity is almost exactly the opposite of real opportunity. It shackles a person to a specific system along with everyone else and generates, at best, the same level of "success" as those other people. True success HAS to be offset by failure in some way within the system to make it actual success. It is simply a ledger that has to be balanced.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Chico23231;1138732]so why not have the folks who want "free" tie it too military service? I heard this argument from my far right friends.[/quote]

well, if you join the military it is free. i can get up to 72k if i go full time (that's mainly cost of school + monthly stipend). plus a lot of colleges do yellow ribbon, where if the school costs more than the GI bill pays, the government and the school will split the difference, so it's free.

there are also a lot of schools that are sort of fraudulent trying to cash in on naive GIs and give them crappy educations.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=FRPLG;1138745]A major problem with free college is that it inherently devalues education. From an economical standpoint, education is a differentiating factor. Those motivated and able spend their time and resources on college education knowing it provides an advantage. Once it is free much of that advantage disappears. We will shift a major part of the young and able bodied out of the workforce into non-working roles for a period of time that they're are basically required to do because going without would be a major disadvantage. Meanwhile we'll also foster an even greater classification of the work force as surely those with the means would attend the "better" tuition based colleges. We end up in the same place and spent a bunch of money to do it. Free college doesn't solve the problem. It sounds fantastic but it is solves nothing.[/quote]

the point of college is to learn a real world profession, not to prove you're better than someone else. this makes no sense. america isn't a vacuum or the entirely of the world population. if we had more homegrown scientists and engineers, we wouldn't be importing them. college can include vocational skills too like plumbing or auto mechanics or whatever else the market has a shortage of.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Not pretending that others aren't taking big bucks from influential donors, but dear lord this woman just doesn't get it.

[url=http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/clinton-defends-wall-street-speaking-fees-%e2%80%98that%e2%80%99s-what-they-offered%e2%80%99/ar-BBp6s5H?ocid=spartanntp]Clinton defends Wall Street speaking fees: ‘That’s what they offered’[/url]

Re: Democratic debates
 

Sadly, it is a significant section of the American people that.........don't get it. She is also is NO friend of Wall Street.....right?

Re: Democratic debates
 

$675K for three speaking engagements.

She is JUST the person to fix income inequality.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=FRPLG;1138745]A major problem with free college is that it inherently devalues education. From an economical standpoint, education is a differentiating factor. Those motivated and able spend their time and resources on college education knowing it provides an advantage. Once it is free much of that advantage disappears. We will shift a major part of the young and able bodied out of the workforce into non-working roles for a period of time that they're are basically required to do because going without would be a major disadvantage. Meanwhile we'll also foster an even greater classification of the work force as surely those with the means would attend the "better" tuition based colleges. We end up in the same place and spent a bunch of money to do it. Free college doesn't solve the problem. It sounds fantastic but it is solves nothing.[/quote]

Many colleges are recognizing and attempting to eliminate or at least limit the current socioeconomic bias of the college application process. The SAT bias is well documented and many institutions are beginning to devalue it's role in determining whether a student will be able to succeed collegiately. You are also seeing the with the AP exams. Colleges are willing to offer the advanced placement but many are realizing that the test favors those from socioeconomic means. One of the biggest reasons Harvard and MIT have begun to offer their classes online for free is it gives them a chance to find untapped talent that would get over looked in the current admissions process. While they look like the good guys in providing this free education they in reality are benefitting greatly from it.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=That Guy;1138731]as far as free college - the studies on the original GI bill showed that every $1 spent on getting GIs degrees resulted in adding $7 back into the economy. if done right, free college can actually be a net gain.[/quote]

To piggy back on this the saving are seen by offering early childhood education as well.

[url=http://epa.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/12/04/0162373714559096.full.pdf+html?ijkey=rro4HwVYfIeHc&keytype=ref&siteid=spep]Impact of North Carolina’s Early Childhood Initiatives on Special Education Placements in Third Grade[/url]

The above is a research article that looked at the social and economic savings in Durham, NC by state funded Pre K. A brief synopsis is that they found a 42% reduction in the need for special services in school by the third grade. In NC the average spent per a pupil in a typical classroom is $8,000 in the third grade while a student that requires accommodations either via an IEP or a 504 the state ends up spending around $16,000 per a pupil. While the savings might be consistent for elementary education the difference between the two would decrease in middle and high school but would still be much higher than a student without accommodations. By investing in education for 2 years before kindergarten the state can end up saving money during a 10 year schooling of a student.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1138752]Not pretending that others aren't taking big bucks from influential donors, but dear lord this woman just doesn't get it.

[url=http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/clinton-defends-wall-street-speaking-fees-%e2%80%98that%e2%80%99s-what-they-offered%e2%80%99/ar-BBp6s5H?ocid=spartanntp]Clinton defends Wall Street speaking fees: ‘That’s what they offered’[/url][/quote]



These "speaking fees" are simply a loophole for Wall Street to put straight cash into Clinton's pocket. Seriously, fuck that cunt rag. No way in hell I would ever vote for her. Truthfully, she should be running on the GOP ticket more so than the current candidates. She's a war hawk that loves banks and spending money on military industry.

Re: Democratic debates
 

She's still a better option than anyone on the right. Granted the bar is set extremely low.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138781]She's still a better option than anyone on the right. Granted the bar is set extremely low.[/quote]

Rubio is a genuine threat if he can get past the BS crazies.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Schneed10;1138782]Rubio is a genuine threat if he can get past the BS crazies.[/quote]

Rubio is the man. If he goes with Kasich as his running mate, it could be a wrap folks! Hillary cant beat Rubio in a general election.

I was getting my oil changed yesterday and I walked in the waiting area with a Grandma and this Hispanic dude just crushing Hillary. Grandma was saying, "how can anybody vote for Hillary, she should be locked up!" Hispanic dude was saying she doesn't care about the middle class...bring up wall street.

here some proof:[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/05/will-marco-rubio-become-the-choice-for-republicans-who-want-to-win-in-november/[/url]

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138781]She's still a better option than anyone on the right. Granted the bar is set extremely low.[/quote]



That is entirely the point. She's a moderate. Not a progressive. She most likely would be a shoo in on the GOP ticket. I believe most moderates would vote for her before any douche nozzle currently on the GOP ticket.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Rubio is still a distant 3rd, not really buying him as much of an upgrade over the other two maniacs.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138788]Rubio is still a distant 3rd, not really buying him as much of an upgrade over the other[B] two maniacs[/B].[/quote]

:laughing2

gotta love politics

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138788]Rubio is still a distant 3rd, not really buying him as much of an upgrade over the other two maniacs.[/quote]

If command of the issues doesn't matter to you, then I guess.

Trump flat out has no idea how anything really works except for international trade. Especially not foreign policy. He comments in depth on trade policy with China, everything else is either amazing, incompetent, great, or stupid.

Cruz is just an asshole and would get beat in a national election. Nobody wants to vote for an asshole. But Santorum was the Iowa winning asshole in 2012 and everyone's favorite Romney ended up winning the nomination. Cruz won't win the nomination.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Compared to Trump and Cruz, Rubio is legit, but again that's not saying much. It's like saying Grossman was an upgrade over Beck. Well yeah, but he still sucks.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138793]Compared to Trump and Cruz, Rubio is legit, but again that's not saying much. It's like saying Grossman was an upgrade over Beck. Well yeah, but he still sucks.[/quote]

If this is the case, then Obama is clearly RG3.

Re: Democratic debates
 

^ Without the knee injury maybe.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[URL="http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/01/rubio-less-crazy-than-trump-still-not-moderate.html?mid=twitter_nymag"]Being Less Crazy Than Donald Trump Does Not Make Marco Rubio ‘Moderate’[/URL]

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=MTK;1138781][B]She's still a better option than anyone on the right[/B]. Granted the bar is set extremely low.[/quote]

It is indeed a strong and compelling argument you bring............

Re: Democratic debates
 

Hillary is in trouble...big time. I didn't watch, but heard last night it was rough again.

It's funny to hear democrats now saying there is a change within the party...

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Chico23231;1138800]Hillary is in trouble...big time. I didn't watch, but heard last night it was rough again.

It's funny to hear democrats now saying there is a change within the party...[/quote]

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/politics/women-who-support-bernie-sanders-respond-to-234239662.html[/url]

I didn't see the democratic debate, but I saw the Town Hall, and Hillary made a huge push about being the first woman president. Sorry, that's not going to win the campaign, in fact in this article, an attorney (female), had the response I think most women will have (change Sanders to whoever their candidate of choice is):

[quote]“Well, I don’t want to think that I have to vote for a woman, being a woman, because there’s a woman running. They have to be who I would look at as … my best choice,” Giles said. “I’m not trashing Hillary. I’m just saying Bernie is the better of the choices. And I will get a chance to vote for a female president. I would like to see a female president, and there’s plenty out there that I would be very happy to do.”[/quote]

It will be a great time in US politics when race and gender baiting is finally wiped out, and those who use it are gone from the political scene.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Bernie's tax plan is out...and yes everyone tax's are rising.

I do think the upper tier's should be bracketed more.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Chico23231;1138974]Bernie's tax plan is out...and yes [B]everyone tax's are rising[/B].

I do think the upper tier's should be bracketed more.[/quote]

Is it not the Socialist way.........Comrade?

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Hog1;1138986]Is it not the Socialist way.........Comrade?[/quote]

again, 1950s, tiered taxes extended to something like 95%, 1970s, highest rates were still 70%. because american were all obviously commies during the red scare.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Dwight Eisenhower that commie pinko

Re: Democratic debates
 

Higher taxes.....better
Give me what I need...
Fed knows better...sure man...lol

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=That Guy;1138990]again, 1950s, tiered taxes extended to something like 95%, 1970s, highest rates were still 70%. because american were all obviously commies during the red scare.[/quote]

1970s economy, good times right?

The Reagan and Clinton economic policies transitioned our economy and globalization changed everything. Vastly different.



The trump and Bernie support is really good for our political process. Fringe candidates really showing the anger with both parties and the political process in general. We do need change.

I really admire Bernie not taking special interest money and trump self financing. Keeping special interest out of the process should be a reform us as Americans should embrace

Re: Democratic debates
 

you guys make me laugh with all of this " bernie is raising taxes" talk. can you name 1 POTUS that hasnt raised taxes?

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Chico23231;1138999]1970s economy, good times right?

The Reagan and Clinton economic policies transitioned our economy and globalization changed everything. Vastly different.



The trump and Bernie support is really good for our political process. Fringe candidates really showing the anger with both parties and the political process in general. We do need change.

I really admire Bernie not taking special interest money and trump self financing. Keeping special interest out of the process should be a reform us as Americans should embrace[/quote]

i'm just saying that raising taxes isn't a 100% socialist endeavor. reagan raised taxes 11 times (though in total the cuts exceeded the raises). reagan also absolutely ballooned the debt and was never able to get it back under control, which is what all those raises were basically trying to do. bush sr also raised taxes. i just don't get this world view where any kind of tax increase is some kind communist experiment.

why not look at the proposal and judge it on it's merits instead... you know, be rational and all that. i guess because that's too much effort (i'm not talking about you chico).

not shilling for bernie, i haven't read his plan yet, but let's retire the tired hyperbolic one liners, please.

Re: Democratic debates
 

When it comes down to tax talk, why cant tackle major reforms across the board? Individual payer and corporate?

We need major reforms which streamlines the processes, does away with antiquated brackets, etc.

As someone who has to look at people's taxes at their job usually once or twice a week, its really a joke. The "lying ratio" is quite high...and it doesn't discriminate..young, old, and up and down the income line. Shocker: the system allows the biggest cheats to be the folks actually taking home the most money.

Re: Democratic debates
 

[quote=Chico23231;1139004]When it comes down to tax talk, why cant tackle major reforms across the board? Individual payer and corporate?

We need major reforms which streamlines the processes, does away with antiquated brackets, etc.

As someone who has to look at people's taxes at their job usually once or twice a week, its really a joke. The "lying ratio" is quite high...and it doesn't discriminate..young, old, and up and down the income line. Shocker: the system allows the biggest cheats to be the folks actually taking home the most money.[/quote]
Reform? Is that a cleverly veiled term for raising taxes?
You cannot seriously be.........suggesting fixing something?

Re: Democratic debates
 

One of the biggest reasons I hear people say they don't like Bernie is because his plans are too costly and there's no way they will work. I'll be the first to admit he's got my vote, but it's not because I believe he will be able to implement things like free college and healthcare (although as part of my dream scenario, he would be able to set restrictions on for-profit medical companies and regulate healthcare, so people don't go bankrupt for life if they have an accident without insurance).

My reasons for Bernie having my vote are as follows:

1. Honesty - I'm not trying to spend too much time on this (which is my way of saying if you want sources you can do that), but it is widely known Bernie doesn't take money from corporations, and his campaign is almost entirely funded by small donations. He's not getting insanely high speaking fees from companies with vested interests in maintaining the status quo like Hillary is.

2. Consistency: He's been on the right side of history for years, whether it's the civil rights movement, trumpeting gay rights in the 80's, etc.

3. His goals align with mine (campaign finance reform, legalizing weed ((I mean seriously this should be a no brainer by now - it weakens cartels, provides additional tax revenue, research has shown it has medical benefits for people like me with epilepsy/ptsd sufferers/a lot of athletes use it to help recover from their injuries, etc.)), making healthcare/college affordable, spending less on wars, gun control to an extent, etc.)

I'll wrap up with this: One of the biggest arguments I hear against Bernie is this: His plans for how to achieve his goals are unrealistic, i.e. free college/healthcare, $15/hr minimum wage, etc. My whole argument against this is, if you are Bernie and you know that if you win most likely you will have to prepare for battle with the right over every issue you try to tackle. For example, if you come out initially and say "I want $15 minimum wage" (which you know will never happen) it might sound unrealistic, but if your goal is to negotiate and end up with something more reasonable (like $12/hr minimum wage), then that approach is perfectly fine with me. In the end if that did happen it'd be win-win, because the left would be able to gloat about raising minimum wage and the right would be able to gloat about how they didn't let the left get their insane $15/hr minimum wage. So while he might come out and say things like "free healthcare/college for everyone" even supporters like me don't expect that to happen. But maybe talks progress, and improvement is made, however slight it might be it's better than the alternative where jack shit happens and nobody is happy.

Re: Democratic debates
 

Legalizing weed is among your top priorities for our country??

What... The actual... Fuck.

Re: Democratic debates
 

............lol

Re: Democratic debates
 

Hillary just isn't a very good candidate. She's a good candidate for 30 years ago when running for president wasn't just a popularity contest based on who seemed the coolest, or gave the best speeches, or could rev up an extreme and vocal element of an ideology. Accomplished politicians inherently suck as candidates now. Hence we have a bunch of what we call "outsiders" running this shit show. Outsider is code for inexperienced and probably unqualified.