Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186306]Definition of fact
1 a : something that has actual existence space exploration is now a fact
b : an actual occurrence prove the fact of damage
2 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality These are the hard facts of the case.
3 : the quality of being actual : actuality a question of fact hinges on evidence

Definition of opinion
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter We asked them for their opinions about the new stadium.
b : approval, esteem I have no great opinion of his work.
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge a person of rigid opinions
b : a generally held view news programs that shape public opinion
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert My doctor says that I need an operation, but I'm going to get a second opinion.
b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based The article discusses the recent Supreme Court opinion.

Nothing in that link is fact. It bases most of the opinions off of 4 main sources - the NYT, Lindsey Graham, a staffer from Marco Rubio's failed campaign, and Center for Immigration Studies executive director Mark Krikorian. All of these are giving their opinions, and they may be right or not, but again, it's not "facts"[/quote]

G1, read immediately and let me know if you have any questions.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=punch it in;1186300]Where was the great leader, the great dealmaker? Being baby sat and kept busy like a child in the white house. Tweeting like a child. Casting blame. All the while not even understanding exactly what is going on.
This clown is the biggest puppet in history.[/quote]

A good negotiator knows when to step in, and when to stay out, of a deal process. This was a spat between Schumer and Senate rules. No need to bring in the presidential bully pulpit.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1186308]A good negotiator knows when to step in, and when to stay out, of a deal process. This was a spat between Schumer and Senate rules. No need to bring in the presidential bully pulpit.[/QUOTE]



Id say that when the government shuts down or even nears shutdown the whole “deal process “ is not working. Everything he said in 2013 when Obama was at the helm is exactly the opposite when he is at the helm. Makes sense. Well in the trump world.
Spin it however u would like with your silence is golden but he clearly was not helpful during this deal....at all. And his childish tweets are not the mark of a good negotiator. They r the mark of a childish fool.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=punch it in;1186313]Id say that when the government shuts down or even nears shutdown the whole “deal process “ is not working. Everything he said in 2013 when Obama was at the helm is exactly the opposite when he is at the helm. Makes sense. Well in the trump world.
Spin it however u would like with your silence is golden but he clearly was not helpful during this deal....at all. And his childish tweets are not the mark of a good negotiator. They r the mark of a childish fool.[/quote]

You can call it spin, but the government being closed Sat and Sunday was probably always the plan on both sides, there was no "real" pain from that, and both sides gauged how the spin was going. Clearly the Dems felt more heat, and after half a day were willing to walk back to the table with basically nothing.

Reagan was the "great communicator" but even he had to fire air traffic controllers to prove the point that he was willing to stand up to special interests. Trying to paint this as anything but a win for Trump and the republicans is ridiculous, and really shows how far the hatters gonna hat.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186307]G1, read immediately and let me know if you have any questions.[/quote]

Lindsey Graham was giving his side of the exact situation he was part of.....that is a fact no matter how much you try to spin it.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186314]You can call it spin, but the government being closed Sat and Sunday was probably always the plan on both sides, there was no "real" pain from that

Reagan was the "great communicator" but even he had to fire air traffic controllers to prove the point that he was willing to stand up to special interests. Trying to paint this as anything but a win for Trump and the republicans is ridiculous, and really shows how far the hatters gonna hat.[/quote]

Matty any real pain from not knowing if or when you were going to get paid again? I know both my kids felt a whole lot of pain....being Military spouse's. So again your spin is BS. The republicans run the WH ,Senate and House and this could have been avoided.


To call this a win for anyone is plain stupid.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1186314]You can call it spin, but the government being closed Sat and Sunday was probably always the plan on both sides, there was no "real" pain from that, and both sides gauged how the spin was going. Clearly the Dems felt more heat, and after half a day were willing to walk back to the table with basically nothing.



Reagan was the "great communicator" but even he had to fire air traffic controllers to prove the point that he was willing to stand up to special interests. Trying to paint this as anything but a win for Trump and the republicans is ridiculous, and really shows how far the hatters gonna hat.[/QUOTE]



At the end of the day trump and the republicans are willing to ruin people’s lives for a ridiculously ineffective and expensive wall just so they can check something off their list and satisfy the racists and xenophobes that make up a majority of their base. You call it a win. I call it further proof that he / they are out of touch with humanity.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1186316]Matty any real pain from not knowing if or when you were going to get paid again? I know both my kids felt a whole lot of pain....being Military spouse's. So again your spin is BS. The republicans run the WH ,Senate and House and this could have been avoided.





To call this a win for anyone is plain stupid.[/QUOTE]



Pretty sure Okie had just posted something about how this hurt his plans/pay for the week. He probably is not alone .... at all.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=Giantone;1186315]Lindsey Graham was giving his side of the exact situation he was part of.....that is a fact no matter how much you try to spin it.[/quote]

The only comment in the article from Graham was this:
[quote]GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham has criticized Miller throughout the negotiations, the Times noted, with the South Carolina lawmaker referring to the Trump aide as an “outlier.”

“His heart is right on this issue; I think he’s got a good understanding of what will sell, and every time we have a proposal, it is only yanked back by staff members,” Graham said Sunday, referring to Trump.

“As long as Stephen Miller is in charge of negotiating immigration, we are going nowhere. He’s been an outlier for years,” Graham added.[/quote]

That is an opinion[2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge a person of rigid opinions].
It is a strong opinion from a person with a stake in the process, but nothing in those paragraphs are facts.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=punch it in;1186320]Pretty sure Okie had just posted something about how this hurt his plans/pay for the week. He probably is not alone .... at all.[/quote]

Punch, it's a win. Trump/right get what they want, the left doesn't get what they want. We call that winning. There can't be any winning on both sides of the aisle, that's not how this works. There will always be a loser to counteract the winner.

Cred/Chico are you going to hold the Republican leaders of Congress responsible if they pretend like they didn't promise to revisit the issue in good faith by Feb 8th?

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=mooby;1186323]Punch, it's a win. Trump/right get what they want, the left doesn't get what they want. We call that winning. There can't be any winning on both sides of the aisle, that's not how this works. There will always be a loser to counteract the winner.

Cred/Chico are you going to hold the Republican leaders of Congress responsible if they pretend like they didn't promise to revisit the issue in good faith by Feb 8th?[/quote]

Let’s be honest they were on the right path working on it til someone said shithole...allegedly....That’s a deal breaker apparently.

I’d really like to see something get done when it’s comes to immigration. Getting daca and some border security would be a win for the American people.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

I don't even care if they build the wall at this point. Nothing is going to pass regarding immigration reform unless they agree to it. The hilarious part is the whole "Mexico is gonna pay for it" concept. They aren't. Congress might agree to pay for it with the idea they will explore ways to get reimbursed by Mexico down the road, but in this age of 15 minute headlines nobody will hold them accountable for it.

All I want is for DACA recipients to have their situation resolved. 90% have jobs, are taxpaying contributors to this nation, have done nothing illegal to be deserving of being kicked out, you would think even the right can see they aren't worth fighting against. If you want to arrest illegal aliens who come to this country to commit crimes, i.e. gangmembers, etc. go right ahead.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

So much winning I can barely take it

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=mooby;1186325]I don't even care if they build the wall at this point. Nothing is going to pass regarding immigration reform unless they agree to it. The hilarious part is the whole "Mexico is gonna pay for it" concept. They aren't. Congress might agree to pay for it with the idea they will explore ways to get reimbursed by Mexico down the road, but in this age of 15 minute headlines nobody will hold them accountable for it.

All I want is for DACA recipients to have their situation resolved. 90% have jobs, are taxpaying contributors to this nation, have done nothing illegal to be deserving of being kicked out, you would think even the right can see they aren't worth fighting against. If you want to arrest illegal aliens who come to this country to commit crimes, i.e. gangmembers, etc. go right ahead.[/quote]

Wall is a bad metaphor for really try to strengthen a porous border. It allows drugs to enter, some bad hombres such as gang members, and encourages human trafficking. Not to mention Americans who live along the border having strangers pass through their property.

We accept immigrants from the south, just do it legally. Why say you want to be in this country and the first thing you do is break federal law. I know the countries south really don’t care about the justice system or their laws....but here it’s a big deal.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1186323]Punch, it's a win. Trump/right get what they want, the left doesn't get what they want. We call that winning. There can't be any winning on both sides of the aisle, that's not how this works. There will always be a loser to counteract the winner.

Cred/Chico are you going to hold the Republican leaders of Congress responsible if they pretend like they didn't promise to revisit the issue in good faith by Feb 8th?[/QUOTE]



Of course they are not. Lol.
They hold a majority and the white House. They all say they are for DACA. So why is nothing done about it? Why is a dumbass wall more important than these people’s lives? Oh yeah because of all those murdering rapist mexicans. Gtfoh. This disgusting excuse for a human being who is pulling on trumps strings will make sure it doesn’t get resolved.
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/b5d24ed8eeca4df59c62549f4862b803.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1186324]Let’s be honest they were on the right path working on it til someone said shithole...allegedly....That’s a deal breaker apparently.



I’d really like to see something get done when it’s comes to immigration. Getting daca and some border security would be a win for the American people.[/QUOTE]



Allegedly my ass. Not one person denied or spoke up about anything for 18 hours. Than two hardline dipshits who originally stated that they did not recall suddenly, a week later, on fox, remembered crystal clear that he did not say it. Just stop. And who cares about his thoughts on a particular land mass. He was wondering why we need more PEOPLE from these shitholes.
And the only deal breaker is his racist buddy Miller whispering in his ear.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

I wonder what the wall is going to do about the tunnel epidemic, which is a major contributor to illegal drugs/human trafficking coming in. Speaking of illegal drugs coming in....

[quote=Chico]
Wall is a bad metaphor for really try to strengthen a porous border. It allows drugs to enter, some bad hombres such as gang members, and encourages human trafficking. Not to mention Americans who live along the border having strangers pass through their property.

We accept immigrants from the south, just do it legally. Why say you want to be in this country and the [B]first thing you do is break federal law[/B]. I know the countries south really don’t care about the justice system or their laws....but here it’s a big deal.
[/quote]

Chico I know this is a personal question so feel free to not answer, but you smoke right? You are breaking federal law when you smoke. Speaking of smoking, which got a pass under Obama, Sessions recently just announced the rollback of those Obama era protections right? If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your supply from? Do you grow it yourself? If you're buying your favorite strain off the street, have you verified where it came from? What if it came in the country on the back of a cartel member, would you care? What if it came in the country on a handmade rickety cart that crossed the border underground?

S/N another problem to beefing up border security is the whole "not enough good applicants" thing. CBP already has a problem with agents leaving for better law enforcement jobs where the terrain isn't nearly as rough and the pay is just as good if not better.

Just to be clear, if Trump wants to beef up border security, hire more agents, invest in technology that makes their jobs easier, etc. I'm all for it. But if his plan is "build the wall" it won't be good enough.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

I seriously don't understand the narrative that a wall would not make a difference. I can give examples from ancient times to modern day eastern European countries who have greatly reduced refugees with border walls. Can anyone cite an example of a wall that failed without a foreign invading army involved?

Or would anyone want to live next to a maximum security prison that had no physical walls and just video surveillance?

There are more than enough examples of working border walls throughout history. I am just interested in examples where a wall did not significantly reduce external intrusions into a country. (Again not talking about foreign army invasions)

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

And Mooby I think that part of the overall border security provisions it would have to include electronic and personnel improvements as well as the physical wall

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186343]I seriously don't understand the narrative that a wall would not make a difference. I can give examples from ancient times to modern day eastern European countries who have greatly reduced refugees with border walls. Can anyone cite an example of a wall that failed without a foreign invading army involved?

Or would anyone want to live next to a maximum security prison that had no physical walls and just video surveillance?

There are more than enough examples of working border walls throughout history. I am just interested in examples where a wall did not significantly reduce external intrusions into a country. (Again not talking about foreign army invasions)[/quote]

Is there going to be a wall around the whole country ,becuase unless there is ...................It's BS,33 billion dollars of BS.What about Hawaii and Alaska how do you stop "illegal immigration" in those place's???Is the wall going around FL or Me.?

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1186346]Is there going to be a wall around the whole country ,becuase unless there is ...................It's BS,33 billion dollars of BS.What about Hawaii and Alaska how do you stop "illegal immigration" in those place's???Is the wall going around FL or Me.?[/QUOTE]Thanks for the non-responsive response

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186322]The only comment in the article from Graham was this:


That is an opinion[2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge a person of rigid opinions].
It is a strong opinion from a person with a stake in the process, but nothing in those paragraphs are facts.[/quote]
Your spin is not very good.
[url]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/21/lindsey_graham_outlier_stephen_miller_is_holding_up_daca_deal.html[/url]

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186347]Thanks for the non-responsive response[/quote]

Way to get around the issue by deflection,a true supporter of trump I see.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

I didn't deflect. I asked for a specific example of a failed wall and you gave a answer that was basically filled with dumb comments. If you can cite 2 failed walls I will gladly debunk your obviously fallacious arguments.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1186348]Your spin is not very good.
[url]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/01/21/lindsey_graham_outlier_stephen_miller_is_holding_up_daca_deal.html[/url][/QUOTE]You try to disprove my statement by linking an article that rehashes the quote I used. Makes 0 sense.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186345]And Mooby I think that part of the overall border security provisions it would have to include electronic and personnel improvements as well as the physical wall[/quote]

Is the wall worth the cost if it only keeps out immigrant refugees seeking a better life for their family? What if it barely puts a dent in cartel profits? I only say that because I believe only a small portion of drugs comes into this country via unsecured border land, i.e. on backpacks. It's not going to stop smuggling it in through legal border crossings where they hide it behind a fender, or disguise it inside a truckload of pineapples. Or when they fly it in via drone, or plane, or homemade trebuchet's. Or when they build submarines that barely go beneath the surface.

The bigger problem imo is the demand for serious drugs like meth, coke, heroin, etc. but we will only be able to face that problem when we acknowledge mental health is as serious as physical health. We're a long ways away from that.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1186343]I seriously don't understand the narrative that a wall would not make a difference. I can give examples from ancient times to modern day eastern European countries who have greatly reduced refugees with border walls. Can anyone cite an example of a wall that failed without a foreign invading army involved?

Or would anyone want to live next to a maximum security prison that had no physical walls and just video surveillance?

There are more than enough examples of working border walls throughout history. I am just interested in examples where a wall did not significantly reduce external intrusions into a country. (Again not talking about foreign army invasions)[/QUOTE]



Are you comparing Mexico to a maximum security prison? Lol.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1186343]I seriously don't understand the narrative that a wall would not make a difference. I can give examples from ancient times to modern day eastern European countries who have greatly reduced refugees with border walls. Can anyone cite an example of a wall that failed without a foreign invading army involved?

Or would anyone want to live next to a maximum security prison that had no physical walls and just video surveillance?

There are more than enough examples of working border walls throughout history. I am just interested in examples where a wall did not significantly reduce external intrusions into a country. (Again not talking about foreign army invasions)[/QUOTE]



Read this. It might make you look at the multi billion dollar wall differently.
[url]http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-lopez-trump-wall-09292017-story.html[/url]

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186352]I didn't deflect. I asked for a specific example of a failed wall and you gave a answer that was basically filled with dumb comments. If you can cite 2 failed walls I will gladly debunk your obviously fallacious arguments.[/quote]

Yes you did .I asked you a question ,now you answer it.


Originally Posted by Giantone View Post
Is there going to be a wall around the whole country ,becuase unless there is ...................It's BS,33 billion dollars of BS.What about Hawaii and Alaska how do you stop "illegal immigration" in those place's???Is the wall going around FL or Me.?

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=punch it in;1186360]Read this. It might make you look at the multi billion dollar wall differently.
[url]http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-lopez-trump-wall-09292017-story.html[/url][/QUOTE]It is an ok article, and has several good points that can and should be done in addition to the wall. What it does not do is show any evidence of a wall in any time in history that failed to reduce the number of successful border crossings.

In dealing with border security you have multiple sides to the issue. The article deals with reducing incentives to cross the borders, and we can do more on that front. The wall deals with the physical trafficking across the border and we should address that side of the issue as well.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=mooby;1186342]I wonder what the wall is going to do about the tunnel epidemic, which is a major contributor to illegal drugs/human trafficking coming in. Speaking of illegal drugs coming in....



Chico I know this is a personal question so feel free to not answer, but you smoke right? You are breaking federal law when you smoke. Speaking of smoking, which got a pass under Obama, Sessions recently just announced the rollback of those Obama era protections right? If you don't mind me asking, where do you get your supply from? Do you grow it yourself? If you're buying your favorite strain off the street, have you verified where it came from? What if it came in the country on the back of a cartel member, would you care? What if it came in the country on a handmade rickety cart that crossed the border underground?

S/N another problem to beefing up border security is the whole "not enough good applicants" thing. CBP already has a problem with agents leaving for better law enforcement jobs where the terrain isn't nearly as rough and the pay is just as good if not better.

Just to be clear, if Trump wants to beef up border security, hire more agents, invest in technology that makes their jobs easier, etc. I'm all for it. But if his plan is "build the wall" it won't be good enough.[/quote]

From what I’ve seen over the last 5 years, most of the weed I see is high grade and is coming mostly from California...but recently DC connection opened up. I’m not a heavy smoker...actually tailed off from maybe weekly to maybe monthly during that same period... Too busy.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=mooby;1186323]Punch, it's a win. Trump/right get what they want, the left doesn't get what they want. We call that winning. There can't be any winning on both sides of the aisle, that's not how this works. There will always be a loser to counteract the winner.

Cred/Chico are you going to hold the Republican leaders of Congress responsible if they pretend like they didn't promise to revisit the issue in good faith by Feb 8th?[/quote]

Pisses me off classic democrats. Ask for very little and get even less. How you cannot close the deal on a widely popular DACA that has overwhelming bipartisan support is beyond me.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=Giantone;1186361]Yes you did .I asked you a question ,now you answer it.


Originally Posted by Giantone View Post
Is there going to be a wall around the whole country ,becuase unless there is ...................It's BS,33 billion dollars of BS.What about Hawaii and Alaska how do you stop "illegal immigration" in those place's???Is the wall going around FL or Me.?[/quote]

How about this, you answer my question (I asked first) then I will answer yours. Seems fair

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1186366]Pisses me off classic democrats. Ask for very little and get even less. How you cannot close the deal on a widely popular DACA that has overwhelming bipartisan support is beyond me.[/quote]

There will be a deal over DACA, but you don't close down government a month and a half before the deadline, and draw an erasable line in the sand. The reason they chose last weekend was 2 fold, and both politically motivated by their base's hate for Trump.
1) it's a black eye for any president to have a government shutdown on the 1 year anniversary of his inauguration

2) if they could have sustained it to next week they could have held the State of the Union hostage.

Ultimately they won't feel much backlash - no one who is upset they caved is ever going to vote for a Republican, so it was worth a shot to score some anti Trump points.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

This shutdown was a charade...but yet some will say this person won, that person won...folks no one really won. These typical "politics as usual" tactics are shameful...So if you like the swamp and politics as usual then you probably liked what the Dems did. Whether you like our President or hate him...I think its refreshing that we have an administration that is not doing the status quo, I enjoy them of resisting the false narratives in the media and actually approaching issues.

But the facts are facts...lotta things getting done and we seeing the benefits.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=BaltimoreSkins;1186366]Pisses me off classic democrats. Ask for very little and get even less. How you cannot close the deal on a widely popular DACA that has overwhelming bipartisan support is beyond me.[/QUOTE]



Because the Republicans only support it to an extent. They talk a big game for their constituents but apparently forgot to draft it up in the bill. Because Kelly and Miller are the ones “currently “ in charge of Trumps wandering mind and they could care less about DACA.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1186380]This shutdown was a charade...but yet some will say this person won, that person won...folks no one really won. These typical "politics as usual" tactics are shameful...So if you like the swamp and politics as usual then you probably liked what the Dems did. Whether you like our President or hate him...I think its refreshing that we have an administration that is not doing the status quo, I enjoy them of resisting the false narratives in the media and actually approaching issues.



But the facts are facts...lotta things getting done and we seeing the benefits.[/QUOTE]



What benefits have you seen personally from Trump? They aren’t resisting false narratives. Russia actually did hack our election. How many of his “low level coffee boys” need to go down before you realize there is a “there” there and CNN did not fabricate the Russian “hoax”?

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1186369]There will be a deal over DACA, but you don't close down government a month and a half before the deadline, and draw an erasable line in the sand. The reason they chose last weekend was 2 fold, and both politically motivated by their base's hate for Trump.

1) it's a black eye for any president to have a government shutdown on the 1 year anniversary of his inauguration



2) if they could have sustained it to next week they could have held the State of the Union hostage.



Ultimately they won't feel much backlash - no one who is upset they caved is ever going to vote for a Republican, so it was worth a shot to score some anti Trump points.[/QUOTE]



Ill believe the deal for DACA is done when it is done. Not because Ole Mitch loosely alluded to something getting done in the near future. Peoples lives can be ruined in a month C-Red. Being deported and taken away from ur family - losing ur job - ur house - all with the “hope” that this administration will “fix it later”. Please.
And stop painting Trump as the victim here. The hate for him. Poor baby. Maybe if he wasn’t a lying, racist, con artist we wouldn’t hate him. But he is. And we do. And we should.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

Not painting Trump as a victim, but the hate for him that is out there causes his opponents to go to the nth degree of opposition. It's what it is. I feel the same toward HC and am glad Trump is in the WH and not her.

In 2020 we will see where the electorate is. If he makes it that long.

Re: Government shutdown 2018
 

[quote=punch it in;1186390]What benefits have you seen personally from Trump? They aren’t resisting false narratives. Russia actually did hack our election. How many of his “low level coffee boys” need to go down before you realize there is a “there” there and CNN did not fabricate the Russian “hoax”?[/quote]

List me the benefits Russia and the Russian Gov't have received due to the Trump administration.