Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=jamf;1244533]Let's not overreact.
Dude is just trying to get paid.

You can't discard every player that isn't a choirboy and expect to win.
The best coaches can get the best out of these diva players.

The only culture that matters is a winning culture.[/quote]

Completely agree.

Its crazy that people want get rid of Dunbar ASAP for using a standard negotiating tactic when they want to do whatever it takes to get TW back when his behavior was 100x worse. If the team isn't going to do everything possible to get rid of Trent, I see no reason why they would do that for Dunbar. Both are the best options we have on our roster at their respective positions -and by a decent margin. And Dunbar has said he would show up and play out his deal if the skins don't trade him. I'm not concerned.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1244537]Completely agree.

Its crazy that people want get rid of Dunbar ASAP for using a standard negotiating tactic when they want to do whatever it takes to get TW back when his behavior was 100x worse. If the team isn't going to do everything possible to get rid of Trent, I see no reason why they would do that for Dunbar. Both are the best options we have on our roster at their respective positions -and by a decent margin. And Dunbar has said he would show up and play out his deal if the skins don't trade him. I'm not concerned.[/quote]

False equivalence between Trent and Dunbar. Trent protects the blindside of Haskins, so ridding yourself of Trent means you need to find a competent replacement immediately or risk the development of your young QB. Trent also has given so much to this team over the years, playing through immense amounts of pain, so he has shown a track record of setting the culture you want. His beef with the team was for reasons that are all now purged from the organization. If he wants to return and play for this new staff, and you think you're getting back the guy who played through pain and was consistently excellent, that is far different from Dunbar who is expressing he wants out.

If Trent wants in and Dunbar wants out, then that says all you need to know about what each will add to the culture.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Entering last yr of contract + little guaranteed $ = probable holdout

Couple of thoughts

- [B]18:[/B] numbers of games played out of the possible 32 last 2 years. Is he a guy that will play through pain? Will he play at 80% or does he personally require him being 95% and above?

- [B]28[/B] years old when 2020 starts, that not old.

- [B]56.9%[/B] completion rate against this season. That is excellent.

- [B]52:[/B] times targeted last season, thats low, 77th rank among CBs, could this mean J No just left to many guys open so a QB didnt have to look his way? That his sample size is too small to forecast future success comfortably? or is it just bc he only played 11 games.

--------------------------

What I dont understand is the timing. Why now? RR just meet his staff for the first time on Monday Feb 10. He and his agent had to know that the new regime would need some time to get caught up and then address contract concerns.

Initially I thought this issue of not having him resigned already was another Bruce failure to do basic communication with players. But then he says they did talk previously but he hasnt talked to the new regime yet.

Perhaps he and his agent wanted to get his name circulating out there as early as possible so teams may consider acquiring him as they also come up with a FA plan.

--------------

My bottom line -

(1) I like Dunbar, I dont see him as the No. 2 overall best corner in the NFL like PPF does but I do acknowledge that they know more than I do with my fan eye ball test.

If he wants a 5/65M/40G ... I think I would maybe might do that but that would really be stretching me. Much more comfortable at like a 4/40/30 deal. Which who knows, maybe he would have taken last year

(2) I dont blame a player for contract efforts if they are going into their final year.

[url]https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-cornerbacks-through-week-17[/url]

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Schneed10;1244538]False equivalence between Trent and Dunbar. Trent protects the blindside of Haskins, so ridding yourself of Trent means you need to find a competent replacement immediately or risk the development of your young QB. Trent also has given so much to this team over the years, playing through immense amounts of pain, so he has shown a track record of setting the culture you want. His beef with the team was for reasons that are all now purged from the organization. If he wants to return and play for this new staff, and you think you're getting back the guy who played through pain and was consistently excellent, that is far different from Dunbar who is expressing he wants out.

If Trent wants in and Dunbar wants out, then that says all you need to know about what each will add to the culture.[/quote]

So much wrong in your comment. First, Trent didn't protect Haskins' blindside last year. Did Haskins development suffer because he wasn't there? Brown did just fine. And Trent typically only plays about 12 games a year the past few years due to suspension and injuries - will his development be stunted because Trent likely wont be there all 16 games? You act as though Trent Williams is the only player capable of protecting Haskins blindside. Trent Williams is good, but he's not irreplaceable, as Donald Penn demonstrated last year.

You also falsely assert that Trent's beef with the team is over now that Bruce and Hess are gone. This is a blatant lie. Trent himself made it very clear this all started because he wanted to get paid and the team wouldn't do it. And why would they now? And why would he come back without it (since it was so important to him)? You are incredibly and optimistically unrealistic in thinking this will all be worked out so easily AND that Trent will be healthy and as elite as he was in his prime.

Penn effectively filled in Trent's place last year. We already need one new starting CB... do we really think we can get TWO in free agency and the draft?

We (stupidly) did not trade Trent last year when he created a tremendous distraction for the entire team. But now, a year later, there is atleast a chance he might come back. This would seem to justify not caving in to a players contract demands. Dunbar has asked for a trade, but he's made clear he's not going to be the cancer Trent was. He's not going to hold out. He's not going to miss games. He's not going to trash the team and be a distraction. Unless he changes his tune and starts imitating Trents low-character ways, there is no reason to move him.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1244487][B]Whatever happened to the days that you sign a contract and abide by it?[/B] What good is contract with all these cry babies.[/quote]

Because ownership is not accountable to that same standard. Player can get a 5 year extension, then the team can release him 2 years into it if they want. Unless the NFL goes the same route as other professional sports with fully guaranteed contracts, this will continue.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

OTL - i do think we as a group over emphasis what Penn and Flowers did last year. They were servicable at best imo and greatest ability was to stay healthy and up right.

I want an upgraded LT and LG.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;1244543]Because ownership is not accountable to that same standard. Player can get a 5 year extension, then the team can release him 2 years into it if they want. Unless the NFL goes the same route as other professional sports with fully guaranteed contracts, this will continue.[/quote]

Agree, but I also see the teams perspective in not wanting to do this - look at how screwed we are because Alex Smith got severely hurt with so much guaranteed money - now multiply that by all the other injuries teams have and players who underperform. Every team would be crippled with enormous amounts of dead cap money from players who were not contributing to the team.

I think the smartest thing for all sides would be to negotiate shorter contracts with a greater percentage of the contract guaranteed. Or perhaps, the NFL could create some cap-offset for injured players, so they didn't count against the cap. Then, teams and players would be negotiating purely on a basis of talent.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=SunnySide;1244539]Entering last yr of contract + little guaranteed $ = probable holdout

Couple of thoughts

- [B]18:[/B] numbers of games played out of the possible 32 last 2 years. Is he a guy that will play through pain? Will he play at 80% or does he personally require him being 95% and above?

- [B]28[/B] years old when 2020 starts, that not old.

- [B]56.9%[/B] completion rate against this season. That is excellent.

- [B]52:[/B] times targeted last season, thats low, 77th rank among CBs, could this mean J No just left to many guys open so a QB didnt have to look his way? That his sample size is too small to forecast future success comfortably? or is it just bc he only played 11 games.

--------------------------

What I dont understand is the timing. Why now? RR just meet his staff for the first time on Monday Feb 10. He and his agent had to know that the new regime would need some time to get caught up and then address contract concerns.

Initially I thought this issue of not having him resigned already was another Bruce failure to do basic communication with players. But then he says they did talk previously but he hasnt talked to the new regime yet.

Perhaps he and his agent wanted to get his name circulating out there as early as possible so teams may consider acquiring him as they also come up with a FA plan.

--------------

My bottom line -

(1) I like Dunbar, I dont see him as the No. 2 overall best corner in the NFL like PPF does but I do acknowledge that they know more than I do with my fan eye ball test.

If he wants a 5/65M/40G ... I think I would maybe might do that but that would really be stretching me. [B]Much more comfortable at like a 4/40/30 deal. Which who knows, maybe he would have taken last year[/B]
(2) I dont blame a player for contract efforts if they are going into their final year.

[url]https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-rankings-top-25-cornerbacks-through-week-17[/url][/quote]

I agree and I don't think the market would give him that 5/65 million simply based on his recent injury history. But Dunbar on 3.25 million this year...he is an extension-earned type player on this team. I would make him an offer.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I agree.
This little part of the Washington Post article sums it up in the business side of things. Where this conversation needs to be. Not on the emotional fan side:
"The 27-year-old Dunbar, who joined the Redskins as an undrafted free agent in 2015, had a breakout effort in 2019. He emerged as the team’s top cornerback and was ranked the No. 2 cornerback in the NFL by analytics website Pro Football Focus. Dunbar posted a career-high four interceptions in 11 games, but he suffered a hamstring injury and finished the season on injured reserve for the second consecutive year.
If Dunbar suffered another serious injury before he landed a new deal, it would have a significant impact on his bargaining power with either the Redskins or another team. The 20 highest-paid cornerbacks in the NFL average at least $10 million per year, with the Miami Dolphins’ Xavien Howard leading the league with an average of $15.05 million. Redskins cornerback Josh Norman is No. 2 at $15 million."
Dunbar is just laying the ground work on negotiations and why he will not be at OTA's. I think we all remember our MLB suffering a severe knee injury on first day of OTA's last year. I do not blame him for his business stance.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I don’t blame him either, but I also don’t blame the team if they’re reluctant to give him big money based on his injury history. Should be interesting to see how this goes with Rivera.


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Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I really do think we will have forgotten about this by the time the season starts. Its a slow part of the year, so we all spend more time discussing and debating things which are ultimately barely news-worthy.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Randall Nestor;1244493]Give his agent permission to seek a trade with another team. If there is value there we should trade him, if not, he plays for us or sits.[/quote]

pretty much

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=MTK;1244551]I don’t blame him either, but I also don’t blame the team if they’re reluctant to give him big money based on his injury history. Should be interesting to see how this goes with Rivera.[/quote]

Agreed. I don't blame Dunbar for seeking out a new contract. That being said he signed an extension a couple years back so it's not like he's making the league minimum. I leave it in RR's hands.

Most likely scenario - Dunbar has 2 INTs in SB LV (not for us). ;)

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Dunbar has seen so many of his fellow players, ON THIS TEAM, get hurt. If you don’t have guaranteed money in your contract, and you get hurt, you get NOTHING. Dunbar is getting $3.5 million and CB’s at his level (elite) get $10 mill. So he’s trying to protect himself. I get it.

Dunbar’s a player we REALLY want to keep. He was a nobody UDFA who changed positions and is now the second-best CB in the NFL. The Redskins got him super-cheap and now he’s going to be paid. Let’s get him signed up and move on.

With our upcoming fierce pass rush (with Chase) our DB’s are going to have a field day. With the release of all the players who were OVERPAID and did not play or grossly underperform (Norman, Richardson, Davis, Reed, McCoy, etc) we will have cap money to keep our best players and build a winning culture. Sign up Dunbar and pay him what he has earned.

I think it’s a good chance we will bring back Kendall Fuller. Bring him back at CB to see if he can recover his mojo that he had with us. Just a cheap, one-year contract. What’s not to like?




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Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=jamf;1244533]Let's not overreact.
Dude is just trying to get paid.

You can't discard every player that isn't a choirboy and expect to win.
The best coaches can get the best out of these diva players.

The only culture that matters is a winning culture.[/quote]

While I agree with you , I will give you a little something . Two years ago , when The Skins decided to not pick up the option on J. Doctson ( WR ) , we were at a party with a guy who worked with the Skins Med/Training staff . After a few cold ones , he finally answered us about Doctson . His reply …. biggest crybaby he had been around at NFL level . Next biggest crybaby … Dunbar . Maybe he is not really ready for camp RR / Del Rio ?

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[QUOTE=budw38;1244565]While I agree with you , I will give you a little something . Two years ago , when The Skins decided to not pick up the option on J. Doctson ( WR ) , we were at a party with a guy who worked with the Skins Med/Training staff . After a few cold ones , he finally answered us about Doctson . His reply …. biggest crybaby he had been around at NFL level . Next biggest crybaby … Dunbar . Maybe he is not really ready for camp RR / Del Rio ?[/QUOTE]



Difference between Doctson and Dunbar was that Doctson was a total draft bust, and he was a first round draft pick at that. Not even sure if he’s in the NFL at all. He was drafted high and just never came close to filling his potential.

Dunbar was an unheard of Undrafted Free Agent (UDFA) who started as a WR. Then Gruden had him switch to CB. Dunbar has improved every season and is now the second or third best CB in the NFL. He’s got one season left on his contract. No guaranteed money, so if he gets hurt, he gets nothing. So I see where he’s coming from. There have been so many injuries on this team, including some really bad one like Alex Smith, so I can understand an outstanding player like Dunbar worried about getting hurt before he gets a new, big contract for his level of play.

Get him in a good contract with guaranteed money and let’s move down the road. He’s going to be one of the cornerstones (no pun intended!) of the defense.


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Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Warthog;1244578]Difference between Doctson and Dunbar was that Doctson was a total draft bust, and he was a first round draft pick at that. Not even sure if he’s in the NFL at all. He was drafted high and just never came close to filling his potential.

Dunbar was an unheard of Undrafted Free Agent (UDFA) who started as a WR. Then Gruden had him switch to CB. Dunbar has improved every season and is now the second or third best CB in the NFL. He’s got one season left on his contract. No guaranteed money, so if he gets hurt, he gets nothing. So I see where he’s coming from. There have been so many injuries on this team, including some really bad one like Alex Smith, so I can understand an outstanding player like Dunbar worried about getting hurt before he gets a new, big contract for his level of play.

Get him in a good contract with guaranteed money and let’s move down the road. He’s going to be one of the cornerstones (no pun intended!) of the defense.


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Im fine with the team keeping him . Just that maybe he is not very tough , he might not be RR / JDR type of player ? Would love to have a pair of great corners for the next few years .

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[QUOTE=budw38;1244582]Im fine with the team keeping him . Just that maybe he is not very tough , he might not be RR / JDR type of player ? Would love to have a pair of great corners for the next few years .[/QUOTE]



Yeah, the hit on Dunbar is his injuries and missed games. If the redskins end up trading him it’s probably because of his injury issues. Or because he’s not buying into RR’s program. But if they trade him for draft picks it still means that they need to find good to draft picks or FA at:

LB
CB x 2 ( Dunbar gone)
FS

So I still think the Redskins will try to re-sign Dunbar as a homegrown talent!

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

So we have estimated a value of a contract per year of 10 mil per in a 3-4 year range.

His value on the field, best CB and best coverage guy in the secondary. Among peers, PFF has him as one of the top coverage guys...SS mentioned he doesn't get thrown at a ton, meaning he is doing his job.

So lets now look at his Trade Value...I think you throw 1st or 2nd round as laughable. I don't think we could get a 3rd round either based on injury history.

So you would take a 4th rounder? dumb move

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

We were 3-13 last season. Our pass defense was horrid on 3rd downs. If he wants to stay and play for real defensive coaches fine, but if it not, I will put faith in our newly minted VP of player personnel and RR to find suitable replacements.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=budw38;1244565]While I agree with you , I will give you a little something . Two years ago , when The Skins decided to not pick up the option on J. Doctson ( WR ) , we were at a party with a guy who worked with the Skins Med/Training staff . After a few cold ones , he finally answered us about Doctson . His reply …. biggest crybaby he had been around at NFL level . [B]Next biggest crybaby … Dunbar [/B]. Maybe he is not really ready for camp RR / Del Rio ?[/quote]

This is my biggest concern. He doesnt play through pain which means he will miss games every season for things other players will play through. If true, I am sure the team knows this and might be why a deal wasnt done. Perhaps they expressed this to Dunbar and he got his panties in a bunch.

The more I think about it, see if you can get a 3rd and move on from him. He is only going to give 10 games at most per season.

------------------

Everybody treats you different when you are out with an injury. Players that miss time with pulls, like a groin or hamstring, are called “babies, sissies and soft” behind their backs. Unless the injury is visible or diagnosable, like a compound fracture or torn ACL, everyone in the organization will question the player’s toughness at some level.

I did not want to be in that category, but I also knew I could not run. I had never questioned myself and my NFL career before, but I was having doubts about my future. I shared that with a fellow linebacker, Mark Fields, who was the best athlete I had ever been around. Fields gave me words of advice I had never heard before.

He said: “Take care of yourself first. This is a hardcore business. If the team gets you on tape practicing, they will cut you the next day and you will get nothing. But they are probably cutting you anyway since you haven’t practiced, so they have to pay you for being injured.”

This is a major dilemma that occurs every preseason around the NFL. Fringe players who are eating up a roster spot get injured. They cannot practice, thus they are not helping the team. If the team feels like the player has potential, the organization will give the player some time to try and get healthy. But if the team feels like the player is not good enough, they would like to move on as quickly as possible.

That is where injury settlements come into play. Season-ending injuries end up on injured reserve. Players with “minor” injuries are paid a fraction of their salary to, more or less, go away. That sounds cruel, but players come to understand this practice is part of the deal when signing up to play in the NFL.

I remember a veteran signing later in training camp. The guy had no chance of making the team but all the other players at that position had nagging injuries and coach wanted to hold them out of the preseason game. The player, who had quite a few years under his belt, knew the score and how to work the system.

He “feigned” an injury in the game, a pulled calf muscle. Not season-ending, but enough to get a four-week payday on an injury settlement. I remember sitting by him in the training room saying, “I put my time in, now gotta get that retirement.” He smiled all the way out of the complex on his way to the airport.
[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1303698-injured-or-hurt-a-former-players-perspective-on-nfl-injuries[/url]
-----------------

OT - but I always question when a player gets injured 3 snaps into the first OTAs. Cooley said players get hurt over the summer then come to camp, hide the tear or whatever it is, 3 drills in they go down and now claim injury from practice.

I know Rueben Foster had a pretty significant injury but I do question whether he hurt himself outside of football then hid it until he got to OTAs.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Foster had his knee torn to shreds, not sure he's the best example to use

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=MTK;1244597]Foster had his knee torn to shreds, not sure he's the best example to use[/quote]

Yeah neither am I sure its the best example. But 3 snaps into the very first OTAs? .. that raises a red flag to me. Just doing fan, shoot from the hip speculation, perhaps he tore it over the summer then shredded it in OTAs.

It is what it is. Whether it was non-football activities or not, we would still keep him. But i do always watch for those guys who drop on the first day. And after reading this article, will watch for those veterans brought in late who then "pull a calf" right before he might be cut.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Move Dunbar to Tampa for TE OJ Howard

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I see Dunbar has supposedly changed his tune about wanting a release/trade. He’s going to talk with the boss man. Hopefully they work out a raise that’s good for him and the team.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Chico23231;1244615]Move Dunbar to Tampa for TE OJ Howard[/quote]

He just came out and said he is not looking for a trade but I'd take that deal

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Someone probably whispered in our mans ear, and told him that this organization gave him the opportunity to be what he is now. That he should probably be patient and give the organization the opportunity to do the right thing. Instead of saying, “hey bro, get me the hell out of here, I don’t know you.” You might want to reach out in a more respectful manner first. Then if you don’t get the attention you want, start throwing a little something out there and citing that you had been ignored.....this is the reason why I’m acting like this.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Per Al Galdi per Doc Walker...Dunbar meeting with Ron Rivera Thursday. Doesn't want trade or released.

Good news but the Dunbar bat signal worked. Got the ball rolling.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Chico23231;1244628]Per Al Galdi per Doc Walker...Dunbar meeting with Ron Rivera Thursday. Doesn't want trade or released.

Good news but the Dunbar bat signal worked. Got the ball rolling.[/quote]

Yep, all it takes

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Wait - based on the immediate fan response across social media, weren't we supposed to just cut him immediately for daring to use an incredibly common - and often successful - strategy for working out a mutually amicable deal?

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Gotta think Dunny could have handled this behind the scenes vs going public with a tantrum

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=MTK;1244631]Gotta think Dunny could have handled this behind the scenes vs going public with a tantrum[/quote]

+1

No idea why he didn't go to Ron first instead, or if he told someone privately who then leaked it. Either way a poor look for him, but I won't give a shit if they manage to get something worked out. Give him a little more guaranteed money but obviously with his injury history he doesn't deserve a huge deal.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Sign Dunny and also bring in Byron Jones/ Tre Boston and you have a legit top 5 unit

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1244636]Sign Dunny and also bring in Byron Jones/ Tre Boston and you have a legit top 5 unit[/quote]

I would love those moves

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1244636]Sign Dunny and also bring in [B]Byron Jones[/B]/ Tre Boston and you have a legit top 5 unit[/quote]

The more I read about Jones, the more I want to stay away from him. Not that he is a bad player, hes a good player but hes just that. Hes a starting caliber CB2 imo but nothing special. Certainly not the 13-15M per he will most likely get from someone.

-------------

Jones should safely command a contract worth $13 million to $15 million in annual value.

The Cowboys don’t seem quick to draft a check.

On Tuesday, executive vice president Stephen Jones characterized re-signing Prescott as the “No. 1 priority” this offseason and Cooper as “No. 2.” On Wednesday, vice president of player personnel Will McClay was asked directly about Jones.

“He’s a starting-caliber NFL corner,” McClay said. “A really good player. We have to figure out his financial value and if it fits for us.”

His one major shortcoming has been a lack of playmaking.

Jones is the first defensive back in NFL history to exceed 70 starts during his first five seasons and record fewer than five interceptions. Jones has two picks in 73 starts. He carries into free agency a streak of 40 straight games without an interception.

[url]https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/cowboys/2020/01/23/cowboys-interest-in-cb-byron-jones-may-not-stack-up-with-suitors/[/url]
-----

I go 10M per for both jones and dunbar (and be really happy about it) but I doubt either would take it.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=MTK;1244631]Gotta think Dunny could have handled this behind the scenes vs going public with a tantrum[/quote]

Exactly, that is part of that bad culture that needs to be cleaned up.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I’m starting to align my thinking with Sunnyside on Jones. I don’t think Jones is worth a huge contract. Rather pay Dunbar and maybe grab a short term vet at CB. That would be bigly

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

[quote=Chico23231;1244615]Move Dunbar to Tampa for TE OJ Howard[/quote]

send'em down to Jax with Gruden they need a new CB.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

Sunny we're on the same wavelength so much it's not funny.

All I see are opportunities to continue the Redskins way of signing the big name on the board (who's obviously looking to get paid) for multiple years of production that doesn't live up to the contract. Byron Jones went 40 games without a pick, as a corner that is absolutely terrible. If he wants to be paid top 5 money he needs to play like a top 5 corner. 40+ games without a pick, I mean he better be giving up a 10% completion rate to be worth top 5 money at that rate.

Re: Dunbar demanding trade or release
 

I like Tre Boston but not Jones. For the kind of money Jones wants we could get a real playmaker. I’d rather bring back Fuller on a short and cheap contract and see if he can have a year like he had before Bruce traded him to the Chiefs. Kendall Fuller will be fairly cheap and if he busts, then not much lost.


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