Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

The Skins are about $1.65M under the cap right now.

Gardner will clear up $2M in cap space and at this point I'm thinking the team's willingness to part with Barrow is more cap related than anything.

Dumping Barrow will free up another $1.74M giving the team plenty of room to get the deals done with the rooks.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10] If we're looking at the record of the GIBBS FRONT OFFICE, it looks pretty good:

Griffin - hit
Springs - hit
M Washington - hit
Portis - hit
C Cooley - hit
S Taylor - hit
Walt Harris - hit
Salavea - big hit for the money
Brunell - miss
Barrow - miss

[/QUOTE]

Best point made on this thread! Awsome job Schneed10! As to Barrow and 50/50, it makes not one dit of bifference to me how it's handled! We simply recoup the salary cap room!

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Every single team has its share of bad moves, we're no different. But looking at Schneeds post, you can see that we have had a TON of quality guys brought in. I dont know if I agree with Taylro being a hit, I think the jury is still out on him, but I wouldnt call him a bad pickup either.

Obviously Brunell was a stupid move from the get go, I didnt understand that one form the begining. But I dont think Barrow was that stupid of a move. It wasent even a gamble when we signed him. We were all excited to get a quality, veteran MLB, and things went south with his heath. It happens. I dont think we should crucify the front office for antyhing that happened this offseason.

Its not the front offices fault that L. Coles wanted to leave. We got the best we could for him, and while that situation still irks me, I dont blame the front office for anything.

Its not the front offices fault that Sean Taylor did what he did. They cant follow these guys every hour of every day, they are supposed to be adults.

Its not the front offices fault that Lavar Arrington's agents are idiots.

With that, I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

it's not that im pissed at the front office, i am happy we had a low key offseason, but it's more what happened off the field during the offseason. the arrington thing, coles hating the team, gardner requesting a trade, taylor getting arrested, not resigning smoot and pierce, it's a whole combination. i would love to have an offseason where we are low key, where we didn't have any off the field distractions either.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Yeah I suppose we have to wait and see how Taylor plays this year, and whether or not his legal situation is a distraction. And certainly, if he goes to jail for three years, the drafting of Sean Taylor would be the ultimate "miss". But from what I've read, it sounds like Taylor will be acquitted or the case will be dropped, since the state's evidence is a little on the weak side.

Even with Taylor's trouble though, he still was a first alternate for the Pro Bowl in his ROOKIE season, and the players in front of him were named Brian Dawkins, Roy Williams, and Michael Lewis. Pretty good company. I'm counting on him improving and continuing to play for the Skins.

Besides, player acquisition NEVER tells the full story. We love to look back on the players the front offices acquired and say well that one worked out, or that other one was a bust... etcetera. But the quality of the coaching and the ability of the coaching staff to teach those acquired players how to play is just as important as anything. It's no surprise that just about every player acquired by Spurrier was a bust, he couldn't teach them diddily poo. Now look at the defensive guys brought in; even guys previously viewed as schmucks like Joe Salavea'a are tearing it up thanks to quality instruction and coaching. Even guys previously buried on the Skins roster started to shine, like Pierce, Ryan Clark, and Lemar Marshall.

The NFL is a coach's league, player acquisition will only take you as far as the coaches allow it to, after all those acquired players have to fit into and perform in the coaching scheme. Changes to the front office are not the answer; time is the answer. Just give Gibbs a little time, he'll have a winner before we know it.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.[/QUOTE]

If the past has taught us nothing else it's that we shouldn't judge the offseason until the next season (or two) has actually been played

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]The NFL is a coach's league, player acquisition will only take you as far as the coaches allow it to, after all those acquired players have to fit into and perform in the coaching scheme. Changes to the front office are not the answer; time is the answer. Just give Gibbs a little time, he'll have a winner before we know it.[/QUOTE]

Well said. Team chemistry is the factor that takes good teams through the playoffs. Team chemistry can only be built with time, as more or less talented players learn their niches in the system and become accountable to their teammates and coaches. We had it on defense last year. We just have to build it on offense with the players we have.

As to front office decisions... those are best judged in hindsight, as has been stated. But as Schneed so aptly described above, player acquisition is given too much attention by the fans. If we had won a few more of the close games last year, gotten into the playoffs, and somehow managed to go all the way, the Brunell situation would be perceived completely differently. Everyone would be talking about the great leadership and locker-room presence he brought to the team.

It all changes when you have team chemistry and string together wins. And I assert that the personnel doesn't matter as much as we think.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Every single team has its share of bad moves, we're no different. But looking at Schneeds post, you can see that we have had a TON of quality guys brought in. I dont know if I agree with Taylro being a hit, I think the jury is still out on him, but I wouldnt call him a bad pickup either.

Obviously Brunell was a stupid move from the get go, I didnt understand that one form the begining. But I dont think Barrow was that stupid of a move. It wasent even a gamble when we signed him. We were all excited to get a quality, veteran MLB, and things went south with his heath. It happens. I dont think we should crucify the front office for antyhing that happened this offseason.

Its not the front offices fault that L. Coles wanted to leave. We got the best we could for him, and while that situation still irks me, I dont blame the front office for anything.

Its not the front offices fault that Sean Taylor did what he did. They cant follow these guys every hour of every day, they are supposed to be adults.

Its not the front offices fault that Lavar Arrington's agents are idiots.

With that, I dont understand where this "horrific offseason" has come from. This was the offseason we have all wanted, some low key signings, and not trying to bring in over the hill losers. I'm not pissed at our front office for anything that happend this year.[/QUOTE]

Also having an offseason like this brings out some heavy media bias too. I mean it always seems its lose-lose when it comes to us.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Really?
Then by all means lets make sure the skins change everything they do so that aren't the laughing stocks on all these websites. I mean that's what they should care about right? Being the laughing stock of websites. Yeam that proves they need a GM. I love how everyone is bashing the decisions from this off season and they haven't even played a game yet. I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to. I am not saying that they have done perfectly this off season. I am saying that not one of us has any idea how these moves will pan out. If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have.[/QUOTE]

Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).

Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter

I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.

"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument. Gibbs does have this team going the right direction, but he is far from bullet proof in his role as personnell evaluator. Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.

I love Joe Gibbs. He is one of the best coaches of all time, but he should have a full time GM, that's all Im saying. This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

I love how this argument comes up every couple weeks. It's been overdue for a while now.
I can't see how anyone could disagree with the getting rid of Coles deal. He didn't want to be here and the Skins didn't want him. Both Gibbs and Coles attempted to makeup and I think in the end you have to admin both guys are stand up guys with a decent amount character. It wasn't going to work. Now I'll jump on the band wagon who quibble with making the trade to pick up Moss and wasting that cap space but I'll also admit that's a move that none of us can possibly judge as good or bad yet. My gut says we didn't pull it off well but we still need to play the games.
I am convinced that Barrow was potentially our BEST pickup last season. He was a multiple time pro bowler who led his team in tackles for 3+ years. He had monster seasons and didn't miss games. Plain and simple it should have worked. 9 times out of 10 that move works. The Skins got stuck with the 1 out 10 time that it backfired. Luck of the draw.
Brunell was a horible pick up and we all knew it when it happened. That was a serious brain fart for ole coach gibbs. That's one strike but it's the only strike you can attribute as a mistake in judgement. Now this year we have a couple candidates for the brain fart category. Giving up Smoot and Pierce could be problems BUT I'd suggest that Greg williams did a fantastic job limited talent last year and there's no reason to suspect any different this year with a similar level of talent.

Simply the jury is still out on this past off season and it's way too premature to suggest we need a GM. Lets get through some games before we start making declarations.

Now what other good topics can we discuss that are past due for some rumbling. Spurrier anyone?

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Isn't Barrow's release fee about the same as his salary for this year?

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Maybe Canuck can shed some light on that one... You around buddy?

Canuck, will this be an overall positive or negative move on the salary cap?

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

6) If you're going to say getting Portis was a mistake, you're just nuts. I don't know if that's what you're saying, so I won't put words in your mouth. But that trade with Denver was pure genius. Bailey got killed all year long. Portis ground out 1300 yards despite being in a misfit scheme. If you want to see how we made out, check him out this year in the zone blocking, stretched out scheme. And plus, look who the Broncos got with that 2nd round pick. Tatum Bell. They were so happy with him, that they felt the need to go sign Ron Dayne and draft Maurice Clarett this year.

The Gibbs front office is the best we've had in years. Count your blessings and actually think about what you're saying.[/QUOTE]

First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).[/QUOTE]

No reason for us to be calling each other idiots, jackasses, meatheads, etc.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)[/QUOTE]

Michael Moore found his true calling making politically charged movies!

[QUOTE]Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter[/QUOTE]

Trotter was a young, all-pro linebacker entering his prime when he got here. Who was to know he'd tear up his knee. I don't think Fryar or Reed had any sort of financial impact on the team really. Stubblefield was a bust. The rest were brought in here basically to be quick fixes, get us that elusive ring we fans had grown accustomed to but hadn't sniffed in years. It was a poorly planned quick fix solution by Snydato (Snyder and Cerrato) but also poor coaching factors in as does Eddie Murray and all those other kickers missing them damn field goals that year.

[QUOTE]I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.[/QUOTE]

I guess Crazy Canuck can respond to this portion and whether or not salary cap wise this was really that big a hit. I think they, understandably, expected 2 to 3 years of solid production from Barrow based on his history. And who knows, it still might happen.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.[/QUOTE]

Mike Shanahan? I'm actually not even positive about that one. Didn't know we could have done the Portis/Bailey deal straight up.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

I don't think Shanahan had complete say so over all personnell until after he won his SBs, but I could be wrong.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=celts32]First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I do think that Portis is worth more than over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge. Why, you may ask? Because Alexander and James are both 27 years old, and as stats show us in the NFL a RB hits his decline when he is around 30. So, that being said, and if the stats hold true, then that would mean that we would only get 3 good years before Alexander and James start to fall off. Where Portis is only 23 years old, and if you go by that rule of thumb we should get 7 good years out of Portis. I think that people forget that Portis is still so young. But that is my opinion.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=celts32]First off I love Gibbs and would never call for his head under any circumstances. However, I do think the Portis trade was a mistake. Not that I think we needed Bailey. I just think the Redskins given the market overpaid for a RB. Edge & Alexander can not even bring a #3 pick back in trade right now, yet we traded Bailey and a #2 pick for Portis only 1 year ago. And to top it off he is not even a good fit for the offense that Gibbs wanted to run. Alexander would have been the perfect fit, but the Redskins can't get him becasue they already invested 50 million in Portis. Look maybe Portis will have a great year this year with the changes to the offense, but the fact is we still could have gotten a top 5 RB in the NFL for less than half of what we gave up for Portis. Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?[/QUOTE]

OK fair enough, Alexander would be a better fit for running the counter treys and pounding the ball inside. But I don't really understand your argument. If you didn't trade Bailey for Portis, what would you have done with Bailey? He was about to command a $9 million hit to our salary cap. If you had kept Bailey you wouldn't have the cap room to acquire an Alexander. And if you had traded Bailey for Alexander, you still would have been trading Bailey for a guy who you mention can't even fetch a 3rd rounder this year.

Secondly, where do you come up with this: "Does even the biggest Portis fan out there think he is worth over 2 times as much as Alexander or Edge?"

If we acquired Edge or Alexander, they would have demanded a new contract just like Portis did, just like Rod Gardner is, and just like Coles demanded from the Jets when we traded him for Moss. When players get traded, they want new contracts. So if we did trade Bailey for Edge or Alexander, we still would have ponied up $50 million for them, just like we did for Portis.

I honestly would rather have Sean Alexander than Portis, the guy is a machine. I'd be ecstatic giving up Bailey and a second rounder for Alexander, just as I am for Portis. Keep in mind, Bailey would have been a much bigger cap hit than Alexander. Trading Bailey freed up the room to fit Portis, Sean Springs, and Cornelius Griffin all into the cap space that Bailey would have occupied. You have to look at the whole picture.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

I don't see how allowing a player to look for a trade is tipping your hand? How else do trades get done? If you just release him what's the difference? Except now you know for sure that you will recieve nothing for him, Gardner has been a big problem in all this he believes he's a TO talent, and regardless of whether or not teams know he will be released they think so highly of him that they refuse to give up a pick of any kind to secure his services for 1 year at a very reasonable price, that's Rod Gardner for you. A lot like Brunell, who was going to be released and we swooped in and gave up a fortune for him, now that was a joke!

As for Barrow, he was a good signing, how is the front office to know he would develope tendinitis in his knee? Obviously the coaches believe they have to finally cut ties with the guy, what is wrong with putting a feeler out there to see if we may get some kind of compensation back? Nothing gained, nothing lost.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

I will again state that given the cap situation I can see, it would seem that Barrow is wanting to look around, and not the staff wanting him to go.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not)...

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in...
[/quote]
It is well documented that Gibbs is the personell guy now so your points about the reign of Cerrato and Synder as the defacto GM are moot(although I'd agree they are well founded points in past seasons)

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers!
[/quote]
You'd lose that bet since we are not paying any them. Of course they WERE drags for a while but then again I already said I basically agree with your assesment of Snyderatto.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.
[/quote]
Well we'll just disagree on this I guess. I personally believe it was reasonable to expect him to remain relatively healthy for 3 years. The contract was not "BIG" for his age as you suggest though. It was a reasonable contract for a multiple time pro bowler with no injury history at all. In fact It was a bargain if he ends up playing near the level he played in his last year with the Giants for the three year life that the contract was meant for.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument.[/quote]

The heck??
-First:it wasn't directed solely at you. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a general statement towards those with certain unfounded pessimistic views. Of which you appear to be one in this case.
-Second:it wasn't an attack at all. No where did I call anyone a name. I implied that I thought you all were wrong and that if you were wrong I would feel justified in calling you all idiots but I was careful to state that you indeed could end up being right and therefore geniuses. I actually said 'Not saying you are idiots'.
-Third: I provided multiple arguments but apparently in your haste to reply you seemed to forget that. Funny how you spent most of your post attempting to debunk my arguments but during the typing of that one sentence you conviently ignored what you had been doing this since that wouldn't jive with your premise that I didn't provide 'counter aguments'.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. [/quote]
Stellar point and one scares me in its truthfulness. Hopefully Gibbs will turn the tide on this one.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick.[/quote]
Huh? So they actually just GAVE denver another pick for no reason? I bet Denver was pretty happy when the contract showed up and there was a phantom pick included. This has been mentioned in some places but has never been substantiated that Denver would have done the deal without the pick. Pure rumor and is therefore much less relavant.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation.
[/quote]
Still not one person has said how these situiations should have been handled differently in this whole thread. I am still waiting for someone to say what should have been done instead.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]
So there is evidence that we need a GM.
[/quote]
Not much of that is really evidence since it is hard to argue that any real personell mistakes were made outside of the Brunell decision.

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.[/QUOTE]
It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

This makes me think of Philly fans who will find ANY EXCUSE to boo. I remember watching a Eagles game where they were up 3 TDs in the third quarter and the punter shanked one about 25-30 yards. The whole place errupted in boos. Of course our situation isn't analogous, really. But it just makes me think of their tendency to try and find the absolute worst in the situation. I remember when they went down to the bucs in the championship game at home by a few points and the whole place went almost dead silent for the rest of the game. It was like everyone was just thinking, "well here we go again!"

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=jacobyfan]According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.[/QUOTE]
You misunderstanding those numbers. His release fee for this year would have been 2.083 if he had been cut before June 1. Because any cutting would obviously happen after June 1 then his release fee is $416,667 (signingbonus/6). This is not really a release fee rather it is the sb we paid him for this season(in theory). The release goes to next year where the remaining signing bonus is accelrated to that year. His relase for for next year is 1.67. He'd save us 1.7 this year.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Thanks for clearing that up. that's why I asked the question earlier

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=jacobyfan]According to the cap info, it is. 2.157 total hit this year, 2.083 release fee. If that is the case, then this is almost certainly coming from Barrow and not the team. It would indicate that the situation is likely one where he doesn't think he's going to win the starting job and would like one more decent signing bonus (2-3 mil) from someone before he retires. Or he thinks he can still play and thinks he can start somewhere. If he's able to play, the team wouldn't release him if he wanted to be here and play backup. Keeping a vet like that on your team is worth the 70k difference if he can play.[/QUOTE]

That info makes this LESS likely, but I woudn't count it out. We know for sure that Gardner is gone and he really almost clears enough room for signing players by himself.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

Just curious, where's the proof that we could have traded Bailey for Portis straight up??

I guess the front office was just feeling generous and decided to throw in a 2nd round pick without even being asked??

If a GM would equal instant success, I have a hard time thinking Gibbs wouldn't bring someone in. He's shown that he's willing to try new things, the shotgun, tweaking the running game, etc., so if not having a GM was a real problem why would he not bring one in?

He feels very comfortable with the current front office setup and he seeks a lot of feedback regarding personnel from his coaching staff. Last year was a very good season acquisition-wise and I think some people are quick to point out Brunell like that one mistake should negate the many positive moves.

Sorry I just don't see Barrow as a bad move. He was still playing at a high level before last year and Williams had a history with him. Nobody could foresee that he would be injured, it's not like when we brought in Dave Fiore and rolled the dice with his knee problems, Barrow was a very healthy and productive player prior to last season.

We're headed into year 2 of Gibbs as Coach and Team President, I really think we need to give this thing time to run it's course before we can properly evaluate the job he's doing, both in the front office and on the field.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]


It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.[/QUOTE]


Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins]Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbsl. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.[/QUOTE]

In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it[/QUOTE]

I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins]Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.[/QUOTE]

This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.[/QUOTE]
I think I am having a problem communicating my beliefs here but Matty has it right. I just don't like the "glass is always and forever totally empty" type people. There are only a select few here but they get to me.
And I think it a very good that we have differing opinions because it allows us to hash through skewed media coverage and get down to brass tax on most issues. I just would like those who have any opinion, especially those that are contrary, to support them with some facts and to offer alternatives when necessary. This leads to a quality discussion where everyone can digest an opinion and understand the base of it and decide whther they agree or not. When a statement is made like "they handled [this] situation poorly so they all need to be fired!" or "we need a GM because Gibbs isn't any good at personel management" but there is no support for the statement it doesn't contribuite much to the discussion.
This might come as a surprise but I tend to agree that we would probably be better off if we had a true GM with gibbs only having major personel decision contributions but not final say and Snyder simply handling contracts. Cerrato can go work for ESPN for all I care. My support for this would be that
A) as paul noted there is not a long line of headcoach/GM types winning superbowls
B)Gibbs has never been the go to guy on personel issues so there isn't any history to grant him unconditional trust in such areas
C)Snyder is so beholden to Gibbs that a GM as an unbiased middleman might add a layer of reason and quality

But I also consider Gibbs to be one the top football minds in NFL history. He has proven that he can coach a team and design a scheme to win games. Given that history and the documented analysis of his qualities as a talent manager and honetsy I am willing to give him some leeway when it comes to personel management. I am in no way convinced he can do it but I think giving him a shot is only fair. He really has done nothing that any of can point to that shows for a fact he isn't any good at it. Yet.

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

I see what you're trying to say on most of that, my only question is: What has Gibbs done to show he CAN'T be a good GM/Coach?

As Schneed pointed out earlier, most of the offseason acquisitions he made were right-on. I know a lot of us are perplexed by the Campbell pick, but would you really want A) A (more than likely) has-been like Brunell or a B) Never-was, never-will-be like Hasselbeck being a backup in the case that Ramsey gets hurt or plays poorly? It's hard to digest, and even though it might not look this way now, they possibly got a bargain on Campbell. They paid a "bit" too much, but imagine if Ramsey was TERRIBLE and they had to draft a QB next year. They would have to wait until the second round to "maybe" find a diamond-in-the-rough as a QB. Being the crap-shoot that it is, I think the Campbell pick might shock a lot of us if Ramsey falters.

I don't expect him to, but I believe that if he does or gets hurt, the fan base would rather give a young person to chance to be the leader, not someone who is close to retirement or is just not that good.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.[/QUOTE]

Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

Just to piggy-back off of Malcolm and FRPLG's posts, I think Gibbs can make a fine GM, but he needs lots of input to do it.

If we take a look at the players who Gibbs acquired last year, almost all of the successful ones were the defensive guys. Griffin, Washington, Springs, Salavea'a, Walt Harris, and Sean Taylor. All were excellent. But guess who gave Gibbs the input on those guys? Gregg Williams. And Williams knew Barrow would also be a good fit since Barrow was under Williams with the Titans; it's just that there's no way Williams could have known Barrow would get so dinged up. Blache gave his endorsement of Phillip Daniels last year. When he was on the field he proved to play rather well for the money; though he needs to stay healthy to be considered a successful acquisition. Gibbs looks like a pretty successful GM on the defensive side of the ball because he had tremendous input from his defensive staff.

Now is that to say Gregg Williams deserves credit? Yes, he knows exactly what he wants. But is that also to say that Joe Gibbs doesn't deserve any credit for those defensive acquisitions? Hell no. Gibbs was smart enough to take input from guys around him, and it worked.

Gibbs goofed on Brunell big-time. I guess we'll see if he goofs on Campbell, Rabach, Patten, and Santana Moss in due time. But I do know that he is staying open and taking input from everyone. From Bill Musgrave, from Joe Bugel, from Steve Jackson, from Don Breaux, from everybody. That's why he'll be a successful GM. He may not have the eye for talent that Bobby Beathard did, but I think he has supporting staff who knows how to pick the players this time around.

The unsuccessful GM/Coach guys run into trouble because of their egos, in my opinion. They think they know everything and don't need input from others. Joe Gibbs is not like that; he delegates responsibilities, he defers to his assistants, and he trusts the judgment of those around him.

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

Right. Joe Gibbs takes to heart anything said from EVERYONE around him, even the fans.

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

The way the Redskins were talking Barrow up in mini-camp, and rehab programs, I thought he was FINALLY healthy and they would use him in the line-up, guess it was all just PRE-TRADE HYPE to get some team interested!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

schneed10 I partially agree with you. I think this position of president that Gibbs has now is overwhelming for him. He is the Face of the skins. He has responsibility for everything, and has to watch over everything. He has never done this before, and I think this effected his offensive playcalling to some effect. Everyone knows Gibbs is a offensive genius but last year something was lacking... Maybe this role effected that.

With Barrow I think we should let him make the decision to stay on the team by demanding he take a major pay cut if he wants to stay otherwise let him go. I just hate to see him go somewhere else and shine, after we payed for him to get better like trotter
The Rod Gardner situation is part his fault/ part the teams fault if he doesn't want to do what he can to get on another team than he needs to get his ass to camp so that he can do what he can to play here. The team on the other hand has money invested in this player and need atleast keep the door open for a resolution

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.[/QUOTE]

Can someone clear this up for me, because I thought that all draft decisions were the result of a "team" effort between Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. Don't they compile notebooks on all draft prospects and make the decisions together? Of course Danny Boy will side with Gibbs on all matters, but if memory serves me, I believe the threesome is still calling the personnell shots. I really don't see Phillip Daniels as anything but a bust SO FAR. To say he played well for the money doesn't make sense to me because he only played in 4 games, and his history is an injury plagued one.

Re: do we show our hand to soon
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Can someone clear this up for me, because I thought that all draft decisions were the result of a "team" effort between Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. Don't they compile notebooks on all draft prospects and make the decisions together? Of course Danny Boy will side with Gibbs on all matters, but if memory serves me, I believe the threesome is still calling the personnell shots. I really don't see Phillip Daniels as anything but a bust SO FAR. To say he played well for the money doesn't make sense to me because he only played in 4 games, and his history is an injury plagued one.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it is the result of a team effort. The offseason process works like this:

1) Gibbs and the coaches review the roster and identify needs. They review the roster for certain positions that need strengthening, and they decide what types of skills and traits they want to fill that position with. For example, this past offseason they decided they needed an upgrade at center. They specifically targeted athletic centers who could get out to make blocks on the stretch plays they want to run with Portis this year.

2) Cerrato and the scouting staff compile information, scouting reports, and video of available players at those positions.

3) Gibbs and his coaching staff review the information and watch the videos. They look for the types of techniques and skill sets that they feel is important for the position. They rank the available players at each position.

4) Dan Snyder gets the player rankings (you could call it a "wish list"), and starts the negotiation process. He looks at the salary cap situation with Schaffer and gets a feel for how he needs to fit things into the cap. They then begin to recruit and sell the top player on Gibbs' wish list at each position. Gibbs and Snyder go out to dinner with the player and his agent, crap like that. They feel them out for contract demands, and they decide if they can fit under the Skins' cap. If they think it's doable, Snyder starts negotiating.

So yes, it's a group decision, because Cerrato is the scouting monkey who provides information, so technically he has a role. Snyder does the negotiating and cap management with support from Schaffer, so technically they have a role. But Gibbs picks out the players he wants, with lots of help and evaluation from his assistants. That's what they mean when they say that Gibbs has "final say on personnel."

So yeah, technically it's a group effort. But Gibbs is really the one in charge, and calls the shots on which players to get.

Re: do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)
 

Why don't we find out the answer to our decision-making questions straight from the horse's [URL=http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=95692]mouth[/URL]