Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Regardless of how Brunell plays on Monday night, this QB thing is a nightmare for the Skins. No one thinks Mark Brunnel is the future of the Skins, even for this season. At best, he'll play mediocre and win a few games. In the meantime, we destroyed what little progress Ramsey made in the offseason, and when he gets the call when Brunnel gets injured, and he will get the call, then the crap is gonna really hit the fan. I think the fans question Gibbs because this latest move was just so unlike him. It really makes you question what was once the unquestionable: Can you really take Joe Gibbs at his word?

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]Gibbs will be until either the last day of his contract, or after winning his fourth championship. At that time, he will annoint Greg Williams as the new Skins head coach, or if he is gone already, probably Gregg Blache.

The team is in turmoil??? Only for the media and some of the fans. Brunell has a huge chip on his shoulder after his horrible performance last season, and will prove that he is still a good (not great, but solid) QB.

Also, what will all the people questioning Gibbs say if (WHEN) Brunell leads the Redskins to a victory over the Cowturds on Monday night???[/QUOTE]

All the Gibbs "naysayers" will mysteriously get amnesia about all the their "GIVE RAMSEY A CHANCE..." talk, that's what will happen.

Quote me on this one!

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]Also, what will all the people questioning Gibbs say if (WHEN) Brunell leads the Redskins to a victory over the Cowturds on Monday night???[/QUOTE]

"wow, the line and Portis looked great. bet Ramsey would have scored more touchdowns.." ?

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]To me, crunch time for the Washington Redskins is now. We are only competitive thanks to our D. Our D is only good because of the scheming and coaching of Gregg Williams. Once the D goes, we are toast. Williams will not be here much longer. Yes, he had a tough time of it in Buffalo, but he will be one of the most sought after coaches for a HC job next offseason if our D is again in the top 5. I am a fan of the Skins since 1981, and normally Gibbs would get a huge leash in my opinion as a Head Coach. The problem is, this time around Gibbs isn't just wearing the Head Coach cap, he's calling the shots on personnel as well, and we have been giving away draft picks like they were candy at Halloween. Look at the Eagles and the Pats, great teams are built through the draft, those mid round picks especially are vital. When you take into consideration Gibbs total job performance, he's leash has to be shorter. Throw in this last debacle and I just don't know.[/QUOTE]
But you have to give Gibbs the personnel man credit for bringing in Williams and the rest of the coaching staff. Not to mention signing or drafting players like Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Springs, Griffen, Daniels, etc. Arguements about team management in terms of FA and trades vs. the draft can be made (about ANY team) until people are blue in the face. The only exception is NE due to their success....the Eagles have resorted to signing high priced FA's and are starting to pay the price like other teams.
If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]To me, crunch time for the Washington Redskins is now. We are only competitive thanks to our D. Our D is only good because of the scheming and coaching of Gregg Williams. Once the D goes, we are toast. Williams will not be here much longer. Yes, he had a tough time of it in Buffalo, but he will be one of the most sought after coaches for a HC job next offseason if our D is again in the top 5. I am a fan of the Skins since 1981, and normally Gibbs would get a huge leash in my opinion as a Head Coach. The problem is, this time around Gibbs isn't just wearing the Head Coach cap, he's calling the shots on personnel as well, and we have been giving away draft picks like they were candy at Halloween. Look at the Eagles and the Pats, great teams are built through the draft, those mid round picks especially are vital. When you take into consideration Gibbs total job performance, he's leash has to be shorter. Throw in this last debacle and I just don't know.[/QUOTE]

A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]Regardless of how Brunell plays on Monday night, this QB thing is a nightmare for the Skins. No one thinks Mark Brunnel is the future of the Skins, even for this season. At best, he'll play mediocre and win a few games. In the meantime, we destroyed what little progress Ramsey made in the offseason, and when he gets the call when Brunnel gets injured, and he will get the call, then the crap is gonna really hit the fan. I think the fans question Gibbs because this latest move was just so unlike him. It really makes you question what was once the unquestionable: Can you really take Joe Gibbs at his word?[/QUOTE]

Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...[/QUOTE]

i hope to god what you say about little drop off in our defense if Williams leaves is true. lets hope he doesnt.

and whether it was naming and practicing Ramsey as starter without being truly convinced, or switching to a 35yr old QB who was the worst in the NFL the year before, 19 minutes into the season...trust me...whatever it is, it's a DEBACLE.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]Gibbs wants to do one thing: WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!!! That's what he is paid to do. So if that means changing his mind and "going against his word", so be it.
You are right though, Brunell is not the long-term answer. He is here to hold the job while playing soldi until someone else steps up...presumably Ramsey this year or more likely Campbell in a season or two. I disagree about Ramsey though. He will play to the best of his ability if he needs to go back in. He is a team guy, and assuming his Redskin days are numbered, his performance affects his value if he is to be released or traded.[/QUOTE]

Oh I think Ramsey will give effort, I just don't think his performance will be good based on no reps with the first team and confidence that may never come back. The kid will try, I just don't think there is any way he will succeed with our team now.....ever.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]A big reason Bobby Beathard left us was his disagreements with Gibbs on personel, Beathard wanted to use the draft and his ability to evaluate talent to bring in young players, and Gibbs wanted seasoned veterans, Gibbs wanted to go with what he believed was a sure thing, Beathard had wanted to draft Icky Woods, [how it actually panned out I am a little vague] but Gibbs wantes Byner and Riggs, while giving up Mike Olyphant a Beathard draftee and some picks, and in so doing lost out on Icky, it was something along those lines, and the comment Beathard made at the time was " well joe got his running backs " showing his displeasure for not being able to get Gibbs a back in the draft who turned out to be rookie of the year, but Beathard knew he couldn't fight with joe because of his untouchable status at the time so he left.

For all those who believe Gibbs is infalible, Gibbs in his first hands on draft went and drafted Desmond Howard when at the time we really needed defensive line help, we traded 2 #1's in that draft to move up to take Desmond, at the time I hated it because I wanted Chester McGloughtin a D-tackle, and carl pickens at WR, both whom were avail with our original picks, both went on to become pro bowlers, while Desmond did nothing for us, then Gibbs retired leaving us with Desmond who was never anything more than a kick returner, and considering we had B.Mitchell, and daryl Green, that was pretty much a waste, and a D-line of swiss cheese. Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.

Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs. I believe Gibbs is having a real problem evaluating talent for his own style of coaching.[/QUOTE]
Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning!

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Guys let's face it, Ramsey wasn't Gibbs' choice from the very start. So to be concerned with how Ramsey is going to deal with this long term is silly. Campbell is his long term choice, and Brunell is in for the short term.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]But you have to give Gibbs the personnel man credit for bringing in Williams and the rest of the coaching staff. Not to mention signing or drafting players like Portis, Taylor, Cooley, Springs, Griffen, Daniels, etc. Arguements about team management in terms of FA and trades vs. the draft can be made (about ANY team) until people are blue in the face. The only exception is NE due to their success....the Eagles have resorted to signing high priced FA's and are starting to pay the price like other teams.
If Williams were to leave, I could see Blache taking over with little to no drop off...especially after a few years in the same system.
Also, I would hardly call this QB switch a "debacle"...[/QUOTE]

I do give Gibbs kudos for some FA signings. Where Gibbs fails to see the big picture is through the draft. When you draft a guy in the 3rd round, and he winds up being a starter, or even a quality backup, you now have him for the next 5-6 years at a VERY low price. By the time his contract expires you hopefully have drafted or picked up someone to take their place. Through the draft you can build your team CHEAPLY. When you build through FAs, then the salary cap looms.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

I'm sorry but Byner and Riggs worked out perfectly for us and Woods was a one hit wonder.

As for Howard, check anybody's draft resume and you'll see [u]everyone[/u] around the league makes mistakes in the draft.

He easily would have been somebody else's mistake that year. He was a projected first round pick, the Skins moved up to grab him, so what? Are we just going to hang this on Gibbs for the rest of his life? Please, get over it already. That one mistake doesn't mean the man can't evaluate talent. Even top picks are a crapshoot at times. Look at Taylor, they did all the homework they could on him, and he still ends up being a pain in the ass and got himself into legal troubles. Stuff like that happens. The most sure thing can end up a bust and it happens to every team, every GM and every coach if you're around long enough.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]Didn't we win a Superbowl with Byner and Riggs??? Icky lost one, then pretty much disappeared into obscurity. As for Howard, everyone always harps on this pick as the big example of Gibbs' failure as a personnel guy, but nobody knows how he would have developed if Gibbs hadn't have retired after his rookie year. Also, those first two picks last year were sure a waste....
Ok, I'm not saying Gibbs is infallible, but people are always so quick to judge when they just need to have a little patience to see how things play out. Gibbs is changing the mentality and atmosphere of the team from the high-spending business to a real TEAM, where everyone is in it to win, not just to get paid. That takes time....and we've already seen some progress.
Yes, Beathard has won without Gibbs. But Gibbs was completely out of football before last year, so I'd say the jury is still out on if Gibbs can win without Beathard. Actually, he did win, in a completely different "sport" that he knew very little about when he first got started with it, so I'd put my money on Gibbs winning![/QUOTE]


SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I'm sorry but Byner and Riggs worked out perfectly for us and Woods was a one hit wonder.

As for Howard, check anybody's draft resume and you'll see [u]everyone[/u] around the league makes mistakes in the draft.

He easily would have been somebody else's mistake that year. He was a projected first round pick, the Skins moved up to grab him, so what? Are we just going to hang this on Gibbs for the rest of his life? Please, get over it already. That one mistake doesn't mean the man can't evaluate talent. Even top picks are a crapshoot at times. Look at Taylor, they did all the homework they could on him, and he still ends up being a pain in the ass and got himself into legal troubles. Stuff like that happens. The most sure thing can end up a bust and it happens to every team, every GM and every coach if you're around long enough.[/QUOTE]


Well we know it keep's happening to gibbs.

Byner worked out much better than Riggs, Icky blew his knee out the next season but he was playing his games on turf as well, who knows if that happens if he's a skin, the problem was in the philosophy between the 2, Beathard had it right you build teams through the draft not by signing veteran estabished players, and that theory applies to today's NFL more drastically with the salary cap now instituded.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Yeah, Taylor, Cooley, and Rogers have turned out to be terrible picks. We should have gone with guys like Winslow...

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]SR, high spending buisness? Gibbs is the one responsible for 92 mil tied up between 2 player, Brunell who should be a backup, and Portis who is a by product of the denver system. I understand the team part but how do you think that is going right now? And I will tell you this Gibbs better hope Brunell lights it up monday night, because if he looks anything like last year he will be answering an awful lot of questions. And if that happens I would be curious to see if he swallows his pride and go's back to Ramsey, or throws the rookie in?[/QUOTE]
Gibbs wanted Brunell and told Snyder to get it done. Kudos to Mark's agent for getting him that deal. Portis had a "bad" year and still had like the eighth highest rushing yardage in 70+ years of team history. A product of the Denver system...ok.
How is it going right now? The Redskins are 1-0 and the QB that guided the scoring drives in that game is our starter. At this point, that's not too bad in my book...
But yeah, Brunell has to prove that Gibbs is right and last year was a fluke. As much as I like Ramsey, I agree with Coach Gibbs in that until Patrick finds a way to not turn the ball over, Brunell is the better man for the job.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

gibbs is turning it around, it may not be pretty but we are moving and in the right direction.again, i say to my fellow warpather's, don't get all caught up in the media. those people just stirr the pot. that's all they do, even when there's nothing . they will stirr.i like ramsey, but as i said before, our margin for error on this team is very thin. turn overs cannot be tolerated at all.even from ramsey.this storm too shall pass.
hang in there people.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

its been a long long storm...

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

I'm afraid there is no breaking point for the Hall of Famer and from what I continue to read in these post, many of these so-called Redskins fans have very little faith. Gibbs said he's not going to leave here without another ring, so who am I to beleive you or him?
Never before have I seen so much carrying-on over the changing of a QB. Some act like it's the end of the world. Just two seasons ago Spurrier changed QB's like socks and it was no more than routine, nothing said, now with so many Brunell haters turning into Gibbs haters, the changing of one for another seems to be such a giant deal. It just dosen't make sense guys because neither of these QB's are going to be here in a couple years anyway, so why get all worked up about two players who aren't even going to be with the team. Real fans are warriors, they understand there are going to be up's and down's, good and bad, but everytime adversity comes you don't jump ship. That's been our number one problem since Gibbs lelf in 1992, every time we didn't have "instant" success with something or someone we jumped to change, and what have we accomplished by continuing to change? "Nothing" I hope Gibbs stays with this team until he get's it right because there is no one available who is any better. If there is, throw me out a name.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=Kope]The end of his contract. Period.

We need continuity more than anything else. Three to four years of it regardless of record.

We have so much mediocrity to over come- it takes time.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. There's been enough upheaval in terms of coaching changes over the last few years. And it would be pretty low to fire the man who got the 'Skins their only three Super Bowl victories (not to mention HOF induction).

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Matty:

You commented that Ramsey was not necessarily the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

Be careful here. Someone will trot out all the stats to show how Ramsey has done better in his first umpteen games than Montana, Manning, Favre, Elway and Unitas. They're lurking out there you know...

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]I'm afraid there is no breaking point for the Hall of Famer and from what I continue to read in these post, many of these so-called Redskins fans have very little faith. Gibbs said he's not going to leave here without another ring, so who am I to beleive you or him?
Never before have I seen so much carrying-on over the changing of a QB. Some act like it's the end of the world. Just two seasons ago Spurrier changed QB's like socks and it was no more than routine, nothing said, now with so many Brunell haters turning into Gibbs haters, the changing of one for another seems to be such a giant deal. It just dosen't make sense guys because neither of these QB's are going to be here in a couple years anyway, so why get all worked up about two players who aren't even going to be with the team. Real fans are warriors, they understand there are going to be up's and down's, good and bad, but everytime adversity comes you don't jump ship. That's been our number one problem since Gibbs lelf in 1992, every time we didn't have "instant" success with something or someone we jumped to change, and what have we accomplished by continuing to change? "Nothing" I hope Gibbs stays with this team until he get's it right because there is no one available who is any better. If there is, throw me out a name.[/QUOTE]

I don't think tossing gibbs or our D staff would help at all... all we need is a good QB and possibly a true #1 WR. I'm just praying we're better than last year and making steady progress. I'd like to do better than 6-10 this year.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

I think it would take two more losing seasons. Then I think Gibbs himself would resign.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Let's not get too deep into revisionist history here. Icky Woods had a very brief career because he had a blown out knee before the days when knee-reconstructive-surgery was known. Before we dismiss him as a "one-hit-wonder", let's acknowledge that the injury bug bit him very badly.


I've been saying for about 6 months now that Joe Gibbs really never wanted Ramsey as his QB. However, now that I think about it, neither did Steve Spurrier want Ramsey as his QB. Spurrier tried to play Shane Matthews and Danny Woeful and just about anyone else who could take a snap from center and chew gum at the same time before he settled on letting Ramsey be the QB. So, that's sort of two coaches in a row who played him only after all the other choices were closed off. Might there be a message here?


paulskinsfan:

You are on target with the importance of finding good and productive players in the middle/lower rounds of the draft - and among unsigned free agents too - as the way to build a team that wins on the field and does not hyperventilate its roster every year due to salary cap constraints. That would be the weak spot in the Gibbs [I]curriculum vitae[/I] at the moment.


offiss:

I think that the overall record of Bobby Beathard in San Diego is not that great. Yes, that one team in the mid-90s did make it to the Super Bowl playing a 5th place schedule, but other than that.

Oh yeah, the Skins eventually got one of Beatherd's guys from the Super Bowl Chargers' team to play safety for them. Who among us can forget the "new sheriff in town"?

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Does anyone here think Beathard would have been trading up fo Campbell, or giving up 42 mil and a second rd pick for Brunell? I don't think so! This was a GM who drafted 3 pro bowl QB's third rd or later.[/QUOTE]

Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf.

So you never know

Also, we should remember that it wasn't Beathard who developed those late rounders into Pro Bowlers. Props (or would it be Dap?) to him for finding them but he wasn't the one who necessarily made them Pro Bowl, Championship winning QBs

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

The reason there is no breaking point for me w/ Gibbs:

More than anything else we need change the culture of the Skins; to me this is done through continuity. How has Gibbs done so far? Pretty damn good in my book.

Signs of encouragement last year:

We were in every game for the first time since I can remember.

By the end of the year we were not up and down, which-team-will-show-up-this-week? type of team; we beat bad teams and lost close games to good teams - that is a real sign of a team getting better.

Signs of encouragement this year (only one game I know):

No false starts, delays of game and no holding penalties and only one illigal shift against the offense(the holding against Betts was on a punt)

The O Line gave plenty of protection and blocked with authority. YPC got bigger as the game went on.

Defense looked great again.

Special teams coverage looked great. The one guy who made a mistake is gone.

Not one aspect of the team looked worse this year than last year they all looked as good (defense), or a little bit better (Special teams offense and even QB).

Point being; we sure looked like a [U]good[/U] team in search of a QB to lead the offense (Gibbs said something like that I think). That is head and shoulders ahead of where we were two, three and four years ago when we looked like we hardly practiced snapcounts or would beat great teams and get blown out by basement dwellers.

We are going in the right direction. Belive it. It just takes a while to instill winning in a team.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

He'd pretty much have to murder a close friend for me to want him to leave the team. However if we beat Dallas twice or won the super bowl I would be willing to make new friends.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

I'm sticking by Gibbs as long as he wants to stay because of a number of things.

1. He has assembled a great coaching staff and the players are responding better than I have seen them in years.

2. He is fixing every problem that we have had that has caused his "flawed offensive philosophy" not to work. (Turnovers, penalties).

3. I cant think of a guy with a better resume to take the job if he left.

4. A coach can't make adjustments in a game until he is familiar with his players and they understand the system.

Take for instance how New Engand switched from a 3-4 defense to a 4-3 so that they could pressure the QB in thier game. You have to know your guys and they have to know you to make that kind of switch in the middle of a game.

How about our running game against the Bears? You know we didn't just keep running the same plays until they got tired? Gibbs saw the Bears were crashing the line so he went with some longer pull out blocking schemes that opened the holes up.

Bottom line is that a coach like Gibbs needs the continuity just like the players to be successful. Gibbs will do fine once he gets everyone on the same page.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=STPainmaker]He'd pretty much have to murder a close friend for me to want him to leave the team. However if we beat Dallas twice or won the super bowl I would be willing to make new friends.[/QUOTE]

Great line!:food-smil

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf.

So you never know

Also, we should remember that it wasn't Beathard who developed those late rounders into Pro Bowlers. Props (or would it be Dap?) to him for finding them but he wasn't the one who necessarily made them Pro Bowl, Championship winning QBs[/QUOTE]


Excellent point there TAF I tip my cap to you! :biggthump


Although the debate coming out was who was better Leaf, or Manning? And there were plenty who thought Leaf was better, but the results do speak for themselves.

As for developing QB's I agree with you 1000% I alway's said Gibbs won [other than Theisman] with mediocre QB's, he was a master at developing QB's, which is why I have to question the Campbell pick, the guy coming out is probably mid to late second rd pick, at least that was the projection, if we drafted Campbell without giving up next years draft I would be fine I really would, I just feel Gibbs throws draft picks around like they grow on trees, for talent he's severly overated.

Somewhere George Allen is smiling with his approval.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Of course Beathard was the same guy who, while with the Chargers, traded his first round pick (no. 3 overall I believe), his second-rounder, plus San Diego's No. 1 the following year, as well as wide receiver Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp to Arizona. All for the chance to select #2 overall and get....Ryan Leaf. [/QUOTE]

There were many, many scouts, experts, and general managers who were salivating over the possiblities of Ryan Leaf. It's not like Beathard was a lone madman hellbent on getting that malcontent buffoon while everyone else was warning against it. On lots of draft boards, Leaf was ahead of Peyton Manning.

It was a crapshoot, like the draft always is, and Beathard lost.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Bottom line Gibbs hasen't won without Beathard but Beathard has won without Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

Gibbs won the '91 Super Bowl with Charley Casserly as the GM and Beathard was long gone.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

A QB change couldn't bring me to even think about taking gibbs out. In all honesty I think Gibbs would step down before I would ever ever ever want him to go. I just think consistency is what we need but if gibbs really does horrible(which i doubt he will) i think he will step down, his breaking point is probally higher than mine is.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Gibbs won the '91 Super Bowl with Charley Casserly as the GM and Beathard was long gone.[/QUOTE]


Understood but it was with a team that Beathard built.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

"We are in the midst of a crisis in Redskins Nation. Never before have I seen such in-fighting after A WIN! Its obvious that our team is in turmoil. That being said, at what point for each of you would you actually call for a coaching change?"
For me, when Sonny got benched for Kilmer, I wanted Allen to go away. But does anyone remember where the skins went that year? Gibbs demands ball control offense (we typically had the ballup to 2/3's of the game during Gibbs 1).
So starting the season with two turnovers, while Brunell looked sharp during preseason, I don't blame Gibbs for benching Ramsey. A. Brown is another visable reminder to control the ball.
Look for the rookie qb to go during garbage time.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]There were many, many scouts, experts, and general managers who were salivating over the possiblities of Ryan Leaf. It's not like Beathard was a lone madman hellbent on getting that malcontent buffoon while everyone else was warning against it. On lots of draft boards, Leaf was ahead of Peyton Manning.

It was a crapshoot, like the draft always is, and Beathard lost.[/QUOTE]

I've tried to make the same point regarding Desmond Howard.

Even the great Bobby Beathard wasn't immune to making a draft blunder. Should we hang that over his head like some to do Gibbs with Howard? While it's a blemish on the resume, you can't ignore the entire body of work.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

Agreed: There were quite a few teams that wanted too, and would have drafted Desmond Howard if the Redskins hadn't. It's not like he wasn't coveted by anyone else in the league.

Re: Soooo, for each of us, what is the breaking point for Gibbs?
 

My breaking point with Gibbs would probably be two more losing seasons with no signs of hope.