Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=celts32]They are getting better...anyone who can't see they are getting better is not watching the games and looking at only the record.

As for the GM/scouting department...I think you need to judge a team on how well they do in the later rounds of a draft. Anyone can make a top 10 pick and be right more times than not. You can read Mel Kipers book and pretty much predict the top 10 of a draft with 80% certainty. The fact of the matter is that since Danny & Vinny have been on board the Redskins have found very few gems in the later rounds where true talent evaluaters flex their muscles...perhaps that is why those picks are so undervalued by the team now and handed out like candy. If the skins were finding a Tom Brady or Joe Jacoby or Russ Grimm with those picks every couple of years then the team would start to value them more.[/QUOTE]

Exactly the reason you need a GM. You can not continue year after year throwing away picks and building through free agency. You can not build a team of chemistry, and cohesion by doing that. Look at the teams competing for playoffs now , and previous winners of super bowls in the past 4 years, they all build through the draft, and MAYBE add 1, or 2 at most, free agents to put them over the top. Not 5 or 6 free agents every year.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Ask the Bengals how easy it is to take first rounders, they had high first rounders for a about a decade and managed to F them all up.[/QUOTE]

That was the owner who didn't put players around those first rounders. Now look and see what is going on in Cincinatti. Good team, young talent, and an owner who made a pledge to make the team better by handing everything over the coach and GM.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

I think adding a new GM couldn't hurt. I think what some of us are trying to say here is the personnel decisions have gotten much better sense Gibbs came to town.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

I know we all love Joe. And its hard to question a guy who has won as much as he has, and is in the Hall. To say this organization is in any better shape now than a couple of years ago is just not correct. Yes, Joe has brought in a sence of comradory amongst the players, and the team seams to play with more heart, which is a great thing to see. But from an organiztional stand point it still stinks. We have the same people making decisions on players and drafts. Vinny Cerato is a yes man, nothing more. Pepper Rogers, how is he even qualified? other than to say, Yes Dan, thats a great move! Fact is, since 1999-2000 its been the same story year in and year out. If they rated teams off season moves, we would get an A+ on paper. But they are just not panning out on the field. They fielded a disfunctional team, with a bunch of ME first player in 2000,which on paper was crowned Super Bowl Champs before the season started. When Marty came in, that was actually the first time we started looking like we knew what the hell we were doing. He fired Vinny, dropped players that we ME first, forced one into retirement(Deion). Although he was acting as GM which I never agree on. Then, Danny couldn't accept the fact of not being able to do what he did best. Sign big names to huge stupid contracts and fired Marty. The one time we had something going, even after finishing a tough schedule with Tony Banks at QB we finished 8-3 and had a promising future. Then we all know what happened after that. He got another yes man in Spurrier, and brought all his buddies back to make all decisions. Since then we are 7-9, which by the way is our best season in 4 years, and was the team Marty had in place with the exception of a player or two. then 5-11, 6-10, and now probably 6-10 or 7-9. This organization is good at one thing, creating spin. They can spin their way out of alot of things and make us believe next year is the year. we are only a year away from the playoffs or something bigger. Just look around the NFL and tell me what teams are vying for the playoffs every single year. Look at what they have in place, and look at what we have in place. Look at teams on the way up, and look at us. We do not go up, at all. we are the same mediocore team year after year. 1999 we went to playoffs. that was a team that was not built by Dan and yes men, it was cook, Norv and the GM. Since then 8-8,8-8,7-9,5-11,6-10,and no better this year. does that look like an organization in the right direction? or an organization spinning their wheels in mud?

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]I know we all love Joe. And its hard to question a guy who has won as much as he has, and is in the Hall. To say this organization is in any better shape now than a couple of years ago is just not correct. Yes, Joe has brought in a sence of comradory amongst the players, and the team seams to play with more heart, which is a great thing to see. But from an organiztional stand point it still stinks. We have the same people making decisions on players and drafts. Vinny Cerato is a yes man, nothing more. Pepper Rogers, how is he even qualified? other than to say, Yes Dan, thats a great move! Fact is, since 1999-2000 its been the same story year in and year out. If they rated teams off season moves, we would get an A+ on paper. But they are just not panning out on the field. They fielded a disfunctional team, with a bunch of ME first player in 2000,which on paper was crowned Super Bowl Champs before the season started. When Marty came in, that was actually the first time we started looking like we knew what the hell we were doing. He fired Vinny, dropped players that we ME first, forced one into retirement(Deion). Although he was acting as GM which I never agree on. Then, Danny couldn't accept the fact of not being able to do what he did best. Sign big names to huge stupid contracts and fired Marty. The one time we had something going, even after finishing a tough schedule with Tony Banks at QB we finished 8-3 and had a promising future. Then we all know what happened after that. He got another yes man in Spurrier, and brought all his buddies back to make all decisions. Since then we are 7-9, which by the way is our best season in 4 years, and was the team Marty had in place with the exception of a player or two. then 5-11, 6-10, and now probably 6-10 or 7-9. This organization is good at one thing, creating spin. They can spin their way out of alot of things and make us believe next year is the year. we are only a year away from the playoffs or something bigger. Just look around the NFL and tell me what teams are vying for the playoffs every single year. Look at what they have in place, and look at what we have in place. Look at teams on the way up, and look at us. We do not go up, at all. we are the same mediocore team year after year. 1999 we went to playoffs. that was a team that was not built by Dan and yes men, it was cook, Norv and the GM. Since then 8-8,8-8,7-9,5-11,6-10,and no better this year. does that look like an organization in the right direction? or an organization spinning their wheels in mud?[/QUOTE]

I thought we were discussing the current management with Gibbs?

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]I think adding a new GM couldn't hurt. I think what some of us are trying to say here is the personnel decisions have gotten much better sense Gibbs came to town.[/QUOTE]

I think the difference is not so much that the personnel decisions are better under Gibbs, I think its more that the decisions being made by Gibbs are being supported by the owner and not over-ruled (remember Jeff George) or circumvented which has allowed Gibbs to assemble the type of team he wants/needs. I just dont think that Marty or OBC had this front office support.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]I thought we were discussing the current management with Gibbs?[/QUOTE]

I was just bringing to light how the organization as a whole has not improved since Dan and Co. took over. People are always saying how we are improving, but the numbers are just not backing it up. I dont think, after years of mediocrity, we can keep putting the blame on coaches and assistant coaches. No coach,one hall of famer and one future hall of famer (marty), has had any success. I just wanted to point out that until we put a GM that knows football in place and can run this team without interruption we will be the same team year after year. At some point we have to start looking at the top. We have made personel changes, coaching changes, philosphy changes and nothing is working. The only consistant has been the people making the decisions , and the consistant losing seasons.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

i think 56fanatic and sally jenkins live together,both share the same negative viewpoints on the skins

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=dmek25]i think 56fanatic and sally jenkins live together,both share the same negative viewpoints on the skins[/QUOTE]

I read Sally Jenkins article today and felt it was a bit harsh. She obviously has something against Dan Snyder. That being said, I have taken up for this organization until I was blue in the face. Saying what owner goes out and get what ever player you want, he spends the money to win, he cares. Which all of this is true, he does care about his franchise, tremendously. However, until we put people in place with FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE in the front office we will continue to make bad moves and finish every year with these "playoff scenarios" and what ifs. Look at the teams at the top of the NFL. Look at how the team is run. The owner writes the checks, that is it. They have a proven talent evaluator, GM, player scouts and the list goes on. With the exception of a few teams. All of these teams have built teams from the ground up with the draft. Rounds 1 through 7, not using only rounds 1 through 3. and picking up multiple free agents year after year. I dont know why people dont see that. We use to build through the draft, with the help of quality GMs and win. When Dan took over and cleaned house, and made decisions himself it has gotten us a season best record of 8-8. I know people keep thinking about some of the additions made being quality additions, which some might be. But looking at the overall performance since 99, only 6 years there are only 2 or 3 players still on the active roster. constant turnover, coaches and players never wins. All of the teams competing for the playoffs have had pieces added through the draft over a few years and they grow together, then when they hit a turn around, the front office goes out and picks quality players to make the team that much better. We do not do that. They dont believe in having a down year or two to build and let the team grow, its win now and since that concept has taken over we have not won anything. I just wish people would look around and see the successful franchises and see the common thread there. Its not a hard concept to understand.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

They dont believe in having a down year or two to build and let the team grow, its win now and since that concept has taken over we have not won anything. I just wish people would look around and see the successful franchises and see the common thread there. Its not a hard concept to understand.

It appears you don't mind having a down year or two to rebuild. Yet you judge Joe on the basis of 1 1/2 seasons. You state "don't understand why people don't see using ALL rounds of the draft to build a team". I don't disagree with that, and I am sure the SKins staff does not as well. The draft is but ONE TOOL to rebuild. At the time I am sure they weighed the avenue's they had to benefit from and chose what they thought would have the greatest impact now and for the future to provide a MUCH NEEDED transfusion to a dying patient!

While I do not liken your posts to Sally Jesse Rafael, Jesse Jackson, or anyone else. However, IMO, you judge the team way harsh and unjustly so. They are on track trying to drag this dead whale off the beach! Save the whales!!!!!!!!

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

A few guy's beat me to it, but the word is Martz will be out in St.Louis, there's an offensive mind who could extract the talent out of Portis with the way he uses his backs in that system, the problem is I don't think Martz will be an assisitant, I think someone will hire him as a head coach, but he would be perfect for us as offensive coordinator.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

I think we should start doing the following:

All those who costantly criticize Gibbs, Snyder, et al. need to tell us who THEY would have drafted immediately after the draft. Then we will see how those players pan out. If you do a really good job, I'll help you make your resume to send to Snyder. If you're wrong, we put (jackass) after your forum name for a year.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=jacobyfan]I think we should start doing the following:

All those who costantly criticize Gibbs, Snyder, et al. need to tell us who THEY would have drafted immediately after the draft. Then we will see how those players pan out. If you do a really good job, I'll help you make your resume to send to Snyder. If you're wrong, we put (jackass) after your forum name for a year.[/QUOTE]

lol, that actually doesn't sound like a bad idea...

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

can we get off the mike williams thing once and for all?. he sat a year before coming in to the pros, the competition is faster stronger smarter and quicker and bigger. he now has a reputation as a practice problem as in he doesn't like to. he's not fast or quick just big. and we had that in mccants who i would have liked to have kept. carlos rogers was a great pick.i believe we got the best of the 3 cb's drafted. it's the later picks we could have picked up someone but the fact is not one drafted wr this year is making a big impact what so ever.edwards was the only wr i was considering for our 1st pick and he was gone.soo, lets put mike williams to sleep and never wake it up again.the way they play rookies here i don't think that his impact here would have been anymore than it is in detroit.especially with his practice problems.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

I agree with that. Williams will be a complete bust wherever he plays. Rogers was definitely the best pick. We filled a position of need. I DO agree we could have done better with our 2nd pick.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

Considering we didn't have a 2nd rounder, yeah we could have done a helluva lot better!

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]The scouting was and is primarily done by Vinney and Pepper. They prepare a sheet of potential free agents or draft picks and have a grading system. These are then given to DANNY for approval or disapproval in going after certain players. To my knowledge they have developed a scouting program better than what was in place before Joe got there.[/QUOTE]

THERE IS THE PROBLEM!!!! VINNY did in the 49ers and he is doing the same job Here!!!! Scouting has been so bad and all should be fired! FIRE VINNY!!!! :hitfan:

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

Umm, sorry for pointing out the obvious, but a GM does a lot more than simply decide who to draft. GMs manage the entire team under the salary cap. Where the Skins have HUGE ****ING PROBLEMS is managing the team under the cap. Brunell, for example is playing under a 40 million dollar contract, hardly smart management. As long as I can remember, Skins teams have usually featured at least 2-3 overpaid dinosaurs. We could certainly use a formal GM, but its not likely to happen until the Dummy is willing to stop treating the Skins like his personal fantasy team and let a real pro take control.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

I pretty much agree with everyting 56Fan has said on this issue. While Gibbs is a good coach, his 2 yrs in the draft room with Snyder/Cerrato have been pretty pathetic. When the trio is not giving picks away they are making poor selections in the later rounds. Cooley was a great 3rd round pick, but lets look at their other picks in the mid rounds:

2005

Round 4 Manuel White Jr. FB UCLA
Round 5 Robert McCune LB Louisville
Round 6 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
Round 7 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004

Round 5 Mark Wilson OT California
Round 6 Jim Molinaro OT Notre Dame

Throw in all the trades involving picks, and the draft "team" gets a D at best. The draft isn't just a tool for building a team, its THE tool. No where else can you lock in young talent for 4-5 years at bargain basement prices. Our draft team needs to retire and hand over the reigns to a GM.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan]I pretty much agree with everyting 56Fan has said on this issue. While Gibbs is a good coach, his 2 yrs in the draft room with Snyder/Cerrato have been pretty pathetic. When the trio is not giving picks away they are making poor selections in the later rounds. Cooley was a great 3rd round pick, but lets look at their other picks in the mid rounds:

2005

Round 4 Manuel White Jr. FB UCLA
Round 5 Robert McCune LB Louisville
Round 6 Jared Newberry LB Stanford
Round 7 Nehemiah Broughton FB The Citadel

2004

Round 5 Mark Wilson OT California
Round 6 Jim Molinaro OT Notre Dame

Throw in all the trades involving picks, and the draft "team" gets a D at best. The draft isn't just a tool for building a team, its THE tool. No where else can you lock in young talent for 4-5 years at bargain basement prices. Our draft team needs to retire and hand over the reigns to a GM.[/QUOTE]

Is it more the fact that we don't have that many picks or the quality of picks that bothers you? Where you expecting them all to be instant starters? I think you need to have a little patience with these guys (except for Newberry and Wilson of course). And don't forget about some of those undrafted free agents that are providing depth now (and getting experience now), but could be key players in a year or two.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

Good point about the undrafted FA's, we tend to overlook them.

Re: What about a TRUE GM
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Is it more the fact that we don't have that many picks or the quality of picks that bothers you? Where you expecting them all to be instant starters? I think you need to have a little patience with these guys (except for Newberry and Wilson of course). [/QUOTE]

I think you answered your own question right there. At the very least, you want your draft picks make the team, or demonstrate the ability to stay on the roster more than just one season.

Drafting Manuel White while Chris Canty was still available was idiotic.