Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;664969]We should at least try to draft an elite offensive player at No. 4. Saying that we need a franchise qb (whatever the heck that is) shrinks the possible talent pool by 80-90 percent. We need way to much help to limit the search to one position. And I'd use the same argument for the OT...except that Davis and Okung come ahead of any RB or WR or QB on most boards. [B]I think there's a general consensus that the three highest [I]rated[/I] players (as opposed to [I]best prospects[/I]) are some combination of Davis, Okung, and Bradford[/B].[/quote]Not so fast my friend....certainly not a consensus, me and Mel have "broken from the draft pack" :)

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kipers-argument-for-the-redski.html"]Redskins Insider - Kiper's argument for the Redskins drafting Clausen[/URL]

From the article: "In the case of a player like Clausen or Bradford, I would take the quarterback first. [B]I have Clausen and Bradford rated higher than Davis and Okung. [/B]So I would go the quarterback first, then try to get the offensive tackle in the second round and hope that a Bruce Campbell or a Bulaga or somebody like that fell down to me."

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;664896]When do we get the elite QB to get us to a SB contention level? If we get the OL this draft and our D performs in the top half of the league, we're a .500 team. It's extremely unlikey an elite QB hits FA. If we're at .500 we're picking in the 14-18 range, no elite QB prospects there for 2011. So do we continue to have average QB play and try to build a dominant D and run game (Ravens/Jets/2000 Ravens/2002 Bucs)? How do we get past .500 to SB contention level without an elite QB?[/quote]

You don't is the answer. Look at the super bowl winners since the skins last won in 1991. All but like 2 of the super bowls were won by a team with an elite QB. That timeframe is also the start of the free agency era of the NFL. In the era of free agency all the teams have holes and no position covers up more holes then a great QB. If Shanahaan thinks one of these QB's is franchise material then they need to draft him no matter what else is available.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I want us, to trade back to get more picks and go OL, OL, & OL you fill in the rest. In the NFL they hit awhole lot harder i like Bradford over Clausen (i'm a ND fan) but maybe that freak accident was a sign of things to come.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

So I was talking to my neighbor, whose an Oklahoma alum, played football there a few years as a walk on, watches every OU game on TV, has raised his kids to love OU, and is also a Skins fan. I said to him "Do you think the Skins should get Bradford?" He said "Not behind that OLine...until the redskins show me that they want to protect the QB, then no, he'd get killed because he's a rookie. He does have better awareness of pressure and when to release the ball, unlike Campbell, but I would draft an OLineman and keep Campbell back there and let him and his shoulder take the hits than Bradfords."

I then asked him "Do you think Bradford could be a good QB in the NFL or is he a system guy, because Landry Jones stepped in and played well for you all this past year."

He said "Well yeah OU plays the spread offense, but Bradford would make some throws that spread or not, makes him look like an NFL QB. Yeah I definitely think he'll be a good NFL QB, but he needs an OL to protect him which he doesn't have here... And Landry Jones was good because he was a highly rated QB coming out of high school and sat a year on the bench to study the offense and watch Bradford, as well as the fact that OU's offense is for the most part QB friendly, but also great players around them." He also said he would have liked to see Bradford this year with a worse OL like what OU had this year, so he could see how he would respond more to pressure." He also said that he wouldn't want Clausen, we need OLineman.


That said, and the fact that I trust him, I'd say, get Okung or the next best starting LT.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;665031]Not so fast my friend....certainly not a consensus, me and Mel have "broken from the draft pack" :)

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kipers-argument-for-the-redski.html"]Redskins Insider - Kiper's argument for the Redskins drafting Clausen[/URL]

From the article: "In the case of a player like Clausen or Bradford, I would take the quarterback first. [B]I have Clausen and Bradford rated higher than Davis and Okung. [/B]So I would go the quarterback first, then try to get the offensive tackle in the second round and hope that a Bruce Campbell or a Bulaga or somebody like that fell down to me."[/quote]

I posted this earlier on David Garrard and personally it sounds way to close to home:
[quote]2009 Season Outlook
It's unfair to judge Garrard too harshly for his 2008 numbers. The interior of the Jacksonville offensive line, previously a strength, was pummeled by injury early in the season, leading Garrard to the ignominious crown of most knocked-down quarterback of the year. Despite the heat, Garrard managed a decent completion percentage (61.1) and finished 10th in the NFL in passing yards. The Jags have concerns at tackle for '09 but did use their first two picks on Eugene Monroe and Eben Britton, and they should rely heavily on those rookies. But unless Torry Holt finds the Fountain of Youth or another receiver steps up, Garrard won't be a fantasy starter. However, he's a heady decision-maker and could lead the league in rush yards by a quarterback. He's a bye-week quarterback with a high ceiling.[/quote]

I'm personally glad I'm not Bruce Allen because this is a tough decision. Do you go with Campbell and hope to recapture the first half of 2008 magic that you had going and if you do can you win the Super Bowl? Or worst yet do you fix the O-Line and find that Jason is still just an above average QB leaving you stuck at 8-8 or 9-7 and out of range to draft the top rookie QB's? Theres so much to consider here it's not even funny.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;665247]So I was talking to my neighbor, whose an Oklahoma alum, played football there a few years as a walk on, watches every OU game on TV, has raised his kids to love OU, and is also a Skins fan. I said to him [B][I]"Do you think the Skins should get Bradford?" He said "Not behind that OLine...until the redskins show me that they want to protect the QB, then no, he'd get killed because he's a rookie.[/I][/B] He does have better awareness of pressure and when to release the ball, unlike Campbell, but I would draft an OLineman and keep Campbell back there and let him and his shoulder take the hits than Bradfords."

I then asked him "Do you think Bradford could be a good QB in the NFL or is he a system guy, because Landry Jones stepped in and played well for you all this past year."

He said "Well yeah OU plays the spread offense, but Bradford would make some throws that spread or not, makes him look like an NFL QB. Yeah I definitely think he'll be a good NFL QB, but he needs an OL to protect him which he doesn't have here... And Landry Jones was good because he was a highly rated QB coming out of high school and sat a year on the bench to study the offense and watch Bradford, as well as the fact that OU's offense is for the most part QB friendly, but also great players around them." He also said he would have liked to see Bradford this year with a worse OL like what OU had this year, so he could see how he would respond more to pressure." He also said that he wouldn't want Clausen, we need OLineman.


That said, and the fact that I trust him, I'd say, get Okung or the next best starting LT.[/quote]
This again relies on the flawed logic that if we draft Bradford then our opening day starting OL will be Levi Jones, Derrick Dockery, Casey Rabach, Edwin Williams and Stephon Heyer. Are there actually fans who believe that if we draft Bradford at #4 then we are NOT going address the OL at any other point in the offseason? If I hear 'not behind that same OL' or 'if they don't address the OL' once more I am going to choke someone.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Paintrain;665411]This again relies on the flawed logic that if we draft Bradford then our opening day starting OL will be Levi Jones, Derrick Dockery, Casey Rabach, Edwin Williams and Stephon Heyer. Are there actually fans who believe that if we draft Bradford at #4 then we are NOT going address the OL at any other point in the offseason? If I hear 'not behind that same OL' or 'if they don't address the OL' once more I am going to choke someone.[/quote]

It's not the same line, yet the deficiencies at the offensive line are far greater than those at the QB position. Your basically building the offensive line from scratch, since out of that group that you have listed there, only Dockery is a quality starter, maybe Levi Jones (if he returns). And while you could rebuild the line with players picked up in the later rounds and UFAs that are in their 30s, adding a franchise tackle picked up in the draft could make it a much better line.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=paintrain;665411]this again relies on the flawed logic that if we draft bradford then our opening day starting ol will be levi jones, derrick dockery, casey rabach, edwin williams and stephon heyer. Are there actually fans who believe that if we draft bradford at #4 then we are not going address the ol at any other point in the offseason? If i hear 'not behind that same ol' or 'if they don't address the ol' once more i am going to choke someone.[/quote]


amen!

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Paintrain;665411]This again relies on the flawed logic that if we draft Bradford then our opening day starting OL will be Levi Jones, Derrick Dockery, Casey Rabach, Edwin Williams and Stephon Heyer. Are there actually fans who believe that if we draft Bradford at #4 then we are NOT going address the OL at any other point in the offseason? If I hear 'not behind that same OL' or 'if they don't address the OL' once more I am going to choke someone.[/quote]


I think he's talking about a proven OL, not a bad one or a whole new one which we would have no idea what it would be like.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665420]It's not the same line, yet the deficiencies at the offensive line are far greater than those at the QB position. Your basically building the offensive line from scratch, since out of that group that you have listed there, [B]only Dockery is a quality starter, maybe Levi Jones[/B] (if he returns). And while you could rebuild the line with players picked up in the later rounds and UFAs that are in their 30s, adding a franchise tackle picked up in the draft could make it a much better line.[/quote]

Why is no one showing love to Rabach? Trust me people Rabach is a zone blocker that in spite of what has been written on this board has been praised by the media and experts alike for his solid play. Right now the interior line is one or two players away from being fixed from a starter and depth perspective and luckily it's a lot easier to find interior lineman. The hard part is really going to be what tackles we can get our hands on.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665420]It's not the same line, yet the deficiencies at the offensive line are far greater than those at the QB position. Your basically building the offensive line from scratch, since out of that group that you have listed there, only Dockery is a quality starter, maybe Levi Jones (if he returns). And while you could rebuild the line with players picked up in the later rounds and UFAs that are in their 30s, adding a franchise tackle picked up in the draft could make it a much better line.[/quote]

An argument can be made that a 2nd round tackle, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a veteran free agent/trade) and Bradford would be a better long term strategy than Okung, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a vet FA/trade) and Colt McCoy. If we're going to draft OT and QB with our first two picks, I'd lean towards getting the QB first-tackle second. Anyone who thinks Shanahan is going to draft OL with the first two picks is just setting themselves up for massive disappointment. He's a QB guy and his kid is a QB guy, we're picking a QB early.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Paintrain;665411]This again relies on the flawed logic that if we draft Bradford then our opening day starting OL will be Levi Jones, Derrick Dockery, Casey Rabach, Edwin Williams and Stephon Heyer. Are there actually fans who believe that if we draft Bradford at #4 then we are NOT going address the OL at any other point in the offseason? If I hear 'not behind that same OL' or 'if they don't address the OL' once more I am going to choke someone.[/quote]We can add a second rounder to that group without actually getting it to respectability.

Furthermore, the difference is that some lines have issues in the middle at guard, or just a single guard or center to replace, but they have both the tackles in place. For those partially built lines, a single second round pick is often adequate to get an interior lineman who can play as a rookie and be good at what he does. This is more or less what Arizona did when they drafted Deuce Lutui in the second round after taking Matt Leinart in the first in 2006.

Deuce Lutui was never going to be asked to play left tackle because they had a need there. Four years later, he's now Arizona's best offensive lineman at a Guard position. Which is not all that uncommon for an early second round pick.

My point is: adding a Deuce Lutui (Mike Iupati/Maurkice Pouncey?) type to this offensive line doesn't really make a dent in the quality of the OL. It's probably too late to expect a turnaround in the quality of the unit at that point. Taking a LT at No. 4 guarentees you nothing, but it's unquestionably the best shot at turning the unit into a strength within a reasonable timeframe.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;665425]I think he's talking about a proven OL, not a bad one or a whole new one which we would have no idea what it would be like.[/quote]

Define a 'proven OL'.. We're not going to be able to completely remake the OL but with a couple of additions/subtractions we should be able to improve over what we trotted out there (8 starting RG and Stephon Heyer) for most of '09.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Paintrain;665445]An argument can be made that a 2nd round tackle, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a veteran free agent/trade) and Bradford would be a better long term strategy than Okung, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a vet FA/trade) and Colt McCoy. If we're going to draft OT and QB with our first two picks, I'd lean towards getting the QB first-tackle second. Anyone who thinks Shanahan is going to draft OL with the first two picks is just setting themselves up for massive disappointment. He's a QB guy and his kid is a QB guy, we're picking a QB early.[/quote]

Rinehart really needs to turn the corner, hopefully in similar manner to that of Dockery in 2004 (when Gibbs arrived). Otherwise I would rather start Kory L at Guard or better yet hope that we find a way to get Chris Kuper. This scheme will make people play better then they really are but it can only do so much.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=Paintrain;665445]An argument can be made that a 2nd round tackle, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a veteran free agent/trade) and Bradford would be a better long term strategy than Okung, Dockery, Rabach, Rinehart, Levi Jones (or a vet FA/trade) and Colt McCoy. If we're going to draft OT and QB with our first two picks, I'd lean towards getting the QB first-tackle second. Anyone who thinks Shanahan is going to draft OL with the first two picks is just setting themselves up for massive disappointment. He's a QB guy and his kid is a QB guy, we're picking a QB early.[/quote]

And QB guys know that you need to protect the QB, something that Washington hasn't done well for a while. I just don't see how you can look at our line from last season, look at the limited UFA talent, and say that you're not going to pick up a tackle with either the first or second rounder.