Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;617736]You can't agree that many of Campbell's mistakes are directly tied to the lack of protection and time to make decisions?

Gruden mentioned about JC's "happy feet", but can you blame him with as many hits, mostly immediate hits that he's taking with this joke of a line TRYING to block for him?

Last season, he had a weak line in the second half, but it wasn't this bad. He threw the fewest INTs of any full-time starting QB last year, even with a broken-down line in the second half. He's clearly capable of playing mistake-free football if he has even a little talent around him...which he doesn't this season.



Thanks for all of the incredibly-stimulating commentary, SOUL-SKINS.[/quote]

You can back up your opinion of Campbell with your presentation of the stats.

I'll back up my opinion of Campbell with analysis expressed by respected former quarterbacks, coaches, and general managers. And I'll add that my opinion of Campbell was made before them (respected former...).

Now what is your opinion of who is more credible.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Good point.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;617854]You can back up your opinion of Campbell with your presentation of the stats.

I'll back up my opinion of Campbell with analysis expressed by respected former quarterbacks, coaches, and general managers. And I'll add that my opinion of Campbell was made before them (respected former...).

Now what is your opinion of who is more credible.[/quote]Isn't this like saying, "what's more credible, the interpretation of these results, or the opinion of others who are interpreting the same results."

The correct answer is: the evidence is exactly the same. The results are only obvious if you take the big picture approach, which neither side here is doing. You and Buster are taking parts of the picture, and presenting it so that it looks like each of you is right.

For what it's worth, he's doing a much better job, simply because he's not deferring to second or third sources. His arguments are quite disputable, but certainly not by saying, "television tells me otherwise".

Your admission that your mind was already made up, while necessary for full disclosure, more or less kills your objectivity.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Campbell's numbers dont lie. Neither does the turf in his helmet.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

He sucks and should be cut now. Yes the Oline is horrible the worst in the league, but Campbell sucks. Cut him now and move on. Let Collins start and go from there.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;617899]Campbell's numbers dont lie. Neither does the turf in his helmet.[/quote]

Or the numerous times he missed WIDE OPEN players down field with no one in his face...or the amount of times he had time and fumbled.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

I don't know about his numbers but I cringed during the game when the play called for Campbell to throw downfield and he hesitated. Maybe no one was open and he made a good decision but sometimes I feel like we have to much trouble getting the ball down field. On the flip side if you rebuild the line and get the running game going we can easily be a playoff team with Campbell as an above average game manager. God knows we have the defensive personnel to pull it off. Bottom line though, we need to get back to playing Redskins/NFC East football. This attempt to be a 60-40 passing team like the Eagles is not working.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=GTripp0012;617332]Sanchez' passing numbers won Offensive Rookie of the Year for Vince Young. And he didn't even have the assistance of a hot dog.

If Campbell ate a hot dog, he'd instantly be the best QB in the division.[/quote]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall if it was you or another poster, but didn't you want Sanchez? 52.8% comp, 6 tds, 10 ints, 7 fumbles. I was dead set against him, and it appears he is proving me right.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jsarno;617952]Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall if it was you or another poster, but didn't you want Sanchez? 52.8% comp, 6 tds, 10 ints, 7 fumbles. I was dead set against him, and it appears he is proving me right.[/quote]

8 of those picks were in just 2 out of 7 games. In five of those 7 games, he has a rating of 84.4, 101.1, 81.4, 87.5 and 114.0. The Bills' game (5 picks, 8.3 rating) seems like an outlier. I know you hate SC, but c'mon man... you're going to use this sample set to discredit a rookie?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

This discussion is getting lame real fast. JC's stats are padded with dink and dunk shit like Brunell had, or with garbage drives where the game is already out of hand(Lions, Eagles, his best games). I still want to know why JC fumbled two perfect snaps out of the shotgun vs the Lions. Bastard almost lost the ball both times and lost yardage. Perfect snaps mind you, hit him in the hands also. Bastard has the mechanics of a rookie or a first year starting QB. Him missing wide open men means his field of vision is limited to that of a rookie or first year starter as well or his concentration level is insufficient to get the job done. Can't blame the O line all the time for his sacks or pics either. JC could throw for 3,500-4,000 yards this season and we can still end up 3-13, so his stats are junk. I could understand if folks outside of Redskindom were high on the kid, but most fans I talk with of other teams think JC is junk. Defending the guy is OK, but defending him to the max when his stats are garbage time yardage, when the defense is in a nickel or dime prevent type mode is delusional.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=itvnetop;617963]8 of those picks were in just 2 out of 7 games. In five of those 7 games, he has a rating of 84.4, 101.1, 81.4, 87.5 and 114.0. The Bills' game (5 picks, 8.3 rating) seems like an outlier. I know you hate SC, but c'mon man... you're going to use this sample set to discredit a rookie?[/quote]

What about his other numbers? Take away his first game of the season with 272 passing yards, and he is only averaging 151 yards per game. That is PATHETIC. His 5 ints vs Buffalo shows more than just a fluke game, it shows how bad he really is, and the hype isn't worth it. I seriously doubt he will turn this season around and end with decent numbers.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;617972]This discussion is getting lame real fast. JC's stats are padded with dink and dunk shit like Brunell had, or with garbage drives where the game is already out of hand(Lions, Eagles, his best games). I still want to know why JC fumbled two perfect snaps out of the shotgun vs the Lions. Bastard almost lost the ball both times and lost yardage. Perfect snaps mind you, hit him in the hands also. Bastard has the mechanics of a rookie or a first year starting QB. Him missing wide open men means his field of vision is limited to that of a rookie or first year starter as well or his concentration level is insufficient to get the job done. Can't blame the O line all the time for his sacks or pics either. JC could throw for 3,500-4,000 yards this season and we can still end up 3-13, so his stats are junk. I could understand if folks outside of Redskindom were high on the kid, but most fans I talk with of other teams think JC is junk. Defending the guy is OK, but defending him to the max when his stats are garbage time yardage, when the defense is in a nickel or dime prevent type mode is delusional.[/quote]

Absolutely agree.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=GTripp0012;617876]Isn't this like saying, "what's more credible, the interpretation of these results, or the opinion of others who are interpreting the same results."

The correct answer is: the evidence is exactly the same. The results are only obvious if you take the big picture approach, which neither side here is doing. You and Buster are taking parts of the picture, and presenting it so that it looks like each of you is right.

For what it's worth, he's doing a much better job, simply because he's not deferring to second or third sources. His arguments are quite disputable, but certainly not by saying, "television tells me otherwise".

Your admission that your mind was already made up, while necessary for full disclosure, more or less kills your objectivity.[/quote]


Of course in this case the opinions of others like Steve Young, Gruden, Ron Jaworski, and Charley Casserly is more credible than yours or Buster's.

By you saying that this is "television telling me otherwise" is as incorrect as saying that the "internet is telling me that campbell's numbers don't lie."

In any case, Buster's objectivity already seems shot by saying that campbell is playing very well this season.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;617989]Of course in this case the opinions of others like Steve Young, Gruden, Ron Jaworski, and Charley Casserly is more credible than yours or Buster's.

By you saying that this is "television telling me otherwise" is as incorrect as saying that the "internet is telling me that campbell's numbers don't lie."

In any case, Buster's objectivity already seems shot by saying that campbell is playing very well this season.[/quote]

So I guess you would rather have Jake Delhomey or JaMarcus Russell as Qb. The Line is the worst in the league but its JC's fault huh?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;617991]So I guess you would rather have Jake Delhomey or JaMarcus Russell as Qb. The Line is the worst in the league but its JC's fault huh?[/quote]

I don't get it... how does this pertain to anything with what I just posted?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;617992]How does this connect with anything with what I just posted?[/quote]
Because I agree with Buster

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;617993]Because I agree with Buster[/quote]

That Campbell is playing very well this season?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;617994]That Campbell is playing very well this season?[/quote]

Yeah, better than over half the QBs in the NFL

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;617995]Yeah, better than over half the QBs in the NFL[/quote]

Okay, I think this is what I will ask of all campbell's defenders this season from now on - do you think Campbell is playing very/extremely well this season?

This is how I determine if a redskins fan is in DENIAL or not.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;617995]Yeah, better than over half the QBs in the NFL[/quote]

Ummmmm What?
Please name the qb's that are worse.
Make sure you give a minimum of 16.
Bet you can't do it.
I'll start....... J. Russell........thats all I got
Ohhh you must of meant better than half of the [B][I]backup Qb's [/I][/B]in the NFL.
Okay, i'll give you that (it still be hard to do though)

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jsarno;617952]Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall if it was you or another poster, but didn't you want Sanchez? 52.8% comp, 6 tds, 10 ints, 7 fumbles. I was dead set against him, and it appears he is proving me right.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Tripp was against Sanchez. Sanchez doesn't fit Tripp's requirements, namely his college experience was very limited

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;617995]Yeah, better than over half the QBs in the NFL[/quote]

HAHAHAHA Thanks i needed a good laugh to start my day.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

And you guys cant get all over Sanchez, ITS HIS 1st YR IN THE SYSTEM. --this excuse was brought to you by JC supporters everywhere--

Name another 1st round QB who has been with a team for 5 yrs and has yet to make the playoffs. thats still in the league. I cant think of any right off hand.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;618002]And you guys cant get all over Sanchez, ITS HIS 1st YR IN THE SYSTEM. --this excuse was brought to you by JC supporters everywhere--

Name another 1st round QB who has been with a team for 5 yrs and has yet to make the playoffs. thats still in the league. I cant think of any right off hand.[/quote]

Rodgers, Smith, and Campbell. There are plenty of other guys in the league who would qualify for the list, but I misread "been with a team for 5 yrs."

That's the list I was able to come up with. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it does happen.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

JC has had every opportunity. Regardless of the line, playcalling, injuries, etc. this is the NFL, and at some point the qb leads or gets out of the way. He should finish the season as the starter, only because no one is going to step up and do better than him. Once the season is over, he will be a perennial backup, and maybe he will flourish in that role. It's not unheard of. He obviously has lots of physical skill, it just doesn't translate to a team leader. He has charisma, and personal skills, and he can run a 2 minute drive fairly well when given control. But something- that intangible IT- or killer instinct or whatever, just isn't there. And it's a shame because, had he had IT, we would have been praising Gibbs et al for bringing him in. Instead it's just another aggravating factor for us fans who have lots of aggravation already.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jdlea;618004]Rodgers, Smith, and Campbell. There are plenty of other guys in the league who would qualify for the list, but I misread "been with a team for 5 yrs."

That's the list I was able to come up with. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it does happen.[/quote]

Rodgers looks to be on his way and Smith is fighting for his career at this point. He was headed straight for "bust" status before last Sunday. Rodgers who has been sacked more than JC has 9 more plays of 20+ and 6 more plays of 40+ yards than JC. Hell even Smith came off the bench and threw 3 tds in a HALF of football. Im just saying ive rarely seen JC hit a wr in stride or throw the ball to a spot before the wr made his cut on a timing route. Most of his throws are when the wr is looking straight at him and he throws it to him.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;618008]Rodgers looks to be on his way and Smith is fighting for his career at this point. He was headed straight for "bust" status before last Sunday. Rodgers who has been sacked more than JC has 9 more plays of 20+ and 6 more plays of 40+ yards than JC. Hell even Smith came off the bench and threw 3 tds in a HALF of football. Im just saying ive rarely seen JC hit a wr in stride or throw the ball to a spot before the wr made his cut on a timing route. Most of his throws are when the wr is looking straight at him and he throws it to him.[/quote]

Dude, I just answered your question...at this point, I'm sort of numb to everything. I feel bad for Jason because I think it's clear that it's not going to work here, but I don't blame it all on him. It wasn't an ideal situation he was put into (changing coordinators, overmatched head coach who's a bad play caller and turn styles for offensive lineman), but that matters little now. The Skins are going to move on (and I can understand why) and I am too. I just wish Colt or Chase were on the roster so they could go to a young guy and see if he can get it done. If you're going to lose, lose with a purpose at least.

One thing I will add to this, however, is that Collins can't do better and I promise Colt wouldn't either, so I think it should apparent that it's more than just the QB, but I'm tired of this discussion. I don't think Jason will ever be an elite QB, but I don't believe he's worse than average under the right circumstances, either.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jdlea;618024]Dude, I just answered your question...at this point, I'm sort of numb to everything. I feel bad for Jason because I think it's clear that it's not going to work here, but I don't blame it all on him. It wasn't an ideal situation he was put into (changing coordinators, overmatched head coach who's a bad play caller and turn styles for offensive lineman), but that matters little now. The Skins are going to move on (and I can understand why) and I am too. I just wish Colt or Chase were on the roster so they could go to a young guy and see if he can get it done. If you're going to lose, lose with a purpose at least.

One thing I will add to this, however, is that Collins can't do better and I promise Colt wouldn't either, so I think it should apparent that it's more than just the QB, but I'm tired of this discussion. I don't think Jason will ever be an elite QB, but I don't believe he's worse than average under the right circumstances, either.[/quote]

This is a very good description of how I feel also.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

It seems to me when we all watch the game we see the same thing, JC struggling, the Oline struggling, the receivers struggling, etc. But after we all regroup and begin to give opinions about everything, there are a portion of people who seem to point back and say well if you look at the stats and sum of all games, everything is ok, JC is a good quarterback, etc. That is fine and your opinion. Yes it is not all JC fault, but he is mos def a major part of it since he has the ball in his hand most of the time. He has the physical tools, but what I cant understand is how people cannot see that he cannot mentally make the decisions to lead this team to a win. He doesnt make 1 person better on that field. He cannot lead period. He is over thinking and hesitant. He goes through progression too fast when he HAS time in the pocket. He misses guys who come open. His overthinking throws off the rhythming of his throws and screws up his foot work, so it is leading to physical mistakes. Ive like and supported JC in the past, and wanted him to succeed, but even when the season started Ive been disappointed from the first game. Second season in the system and my expectations were higher. After 4 years it is pretty clear to me to see what we have, so it is time to move on from defending him and plus, look the FO doesnt want him here its pretty obvious he wont be here next year.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Every time I see this thread..."Campbell's numbers don't lie."
I want to add.....Yeah but they don't tell the truth either. ;)

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;617940]He sucks and should be cut now. Yes the Oline is horrible the worst in the league, but Campbell sucks. Cut him now and move on. Let Collins start and go from there.[/quote]

I realize what's going on here. The Warpath's banner no longer says "Discussion for the knowledgeable Redskins fan"

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;617972]This discussion is getting lame real fast. [B]JC's stats are padded with dink and dunk shit like Brunell had, or with garbage drives where the game is already out of hand(Lions, Eagles, his best games).[/B] I still want to know why JC fumbled two perfect snaps out of the shotgun vs the Lions. Bastard almost lost the ball both times and lost yardage. Perfect snaps mind you, hit him in the hands also. Bastard has the mechanics of a rookie or a first year starting QB. Him missing wide open men means his field of vision is limited to that of a rookie or first year starter as well or his concentration level is insufficient to get the job done. Can't blame the O line all the time for his sacks or pics either. JC could throw for 3,500-4,000 yards this season and we can still end up 3-13, so his stats are junk. I could understand if folks outside of Redskindom were high on the kid, but most fans I talk with of other teams think JC is junk. Defending the guy is OK, but defending him to the max when his stats are garbage time yardage, when the defense is in a nickel or dime prevent type mode is delusional.[/quote]

Campbell long passes:
Wk 1 = 35
Wk 2 = 25
Wk 3 = 57
Wk 4 = 59
Wk 5 = 23
Wk 6 = 25
Wk 7 = 24

Looks like he's going downfield to me. Keep in mind, his protection does not even allot him enough time to let the routes get downfield...hence 20 sacks in 7 games despite his mobility.

I'm also tired of the argument that a comeback attempt is automatically labeled "garbage time" and the stats should be thrown out. If not for the Rabach snap, we could have been down by 3 and who knows, something could have allowed us to win the game. Would you still dismiss the comeback as "garbage"?

How you can put everything on the QB that's playing without anything resembling a pro offensive line is beyond me. Does he make mistakes on his own? Sure he does. Every QB does. The point of me updating the stats of the 3 QBs is not to prove that Campbell is the next Unitas or Tarkenton, but to show that we'd be no better off with Cutler or Sanchez, a point I was making during all of the rumors in the offseason.

I have no response for anyone who wants to see Collins play. We did see him play for a half against a horrible team and it was a disaster. Collins is old, can not move in the pocket, has a very weak arm and has far less snaps in this offensive scheme than Campbell. Collins only stayed in the league because he was an expert at Al Saunders' offense after a decade in it. Well, we're not running that offense, so Collins is essentially useless to us. I felt we should have let him go and kept both Brennan and Daniel. That may have happened if Colt hadn't laid a rotten egg in his chance to win the #2 spot.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;618066]Campbell long passes:
Wk 1 = 35
Wk 2 = 25
Wk 3 = 57
Wk 4 = 59
Wk 5 = 23
Wk 6 = 25
Wk 7 = 24
[/quote]

Where in the world did you get these numbers from? 57 long passes in Week 3, 59 in Week 4.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=SmootSmack;618077]Where in the world did you get these numbers from? [U]57 long passes[/U] in Week 3, 59 in Week 4.[/quote]

Hooked on Phonics would work for you.

Yahooooooooooooooooo

[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7201/gamelog;_ylt=AvtOZAfqAEiPJSfwx.awfJH.uLYF"]Jason Campbell - Washington Redskins - Game Log - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/URL]

Long = Yardage, not number of "long" passes. Didn't have your coffee yet today?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Only stat worth mentioning, JC has led this team to a 2-5 start against the softest schedule so far in the NFL.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;618081]Hooked on Phonics would work for you.

Yahooooooooooooooooo

[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7201/gamelog;_ylt=AvtOZAfqAEiPJSfwx.awfJH.uLYF"]Jason Campbell - Washington Redskins - Game Log - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/URL][/quote]

Oh, I see. I thought you meant number of long passes.

Either way I would suspect that more often than not he misses on those deep throws, though I know it's not always his fault

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Chico23231;618034]It seems to me when we all watch the game we see the same thing, JC struggling, the Oline struggling, the receivers struggling, etc.
[/quote]

It all starts with the OL.
If the OL is struggling and the receivers are stuggling how can you garner an accurate judgement about the QB?
Outside of the stats?

If the OL struggles and the receivers struggle a judgment on the QB is a non sequitur

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=30gut;618184]It all starts with the OL.
If the OL is struggling and the receivers are stuggling how can you garner an accurate judgement about the QB?
Outside of the stats?

If the OL struggles and the receivers struggle a judgment on the QB is a non sequitur[/quote]

I asked myself that same question. I hear Rodgers name a lot and how he has a horrible o-line but truth is his receivers are probably the best WR tandem in the NFL up there with the Cards. How many one-handed spectular catches do they have this year alone? Plus, his pass protection sucks not his pass and run blocking protection we can't run or pass Grant averages 1,000 per season last time I checked. Face it we don't have anything going for us at all no OL play, WR play, RB play or QB play but they all go hand and hand.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;618066]Campbell long passes:
Wk 1 = 35
Wk 2 = 25
Wk 3 = 57
Wk 4 = 59
Wk 5 = 23
Wk 6 = 25
Wk 7 = 24

Looks like he's going downfield to me. Keep in mind, his protection does not even allot him enough time to let the routes get downfield...hence 20 sacks in 7 games despite his mobility.

I'm also tired of the argument that a comeback attempt is automatically labeled "garbage time" and the stats should be thrown out. If not for the Rabach snap, we could have been down by 3 and who knows, something could have allowed us to win the game. Would you still dismiss the comeback as "garbage"?

How you can put everything on the QB that's playing without anything resembling a pro offensive line is beyond me. Does he make mistakes on his own? Sure he does. Every QB does. The point of me updating the stats of the 3 QBs is not to prove that Campbell is the next Unitas or Tarkenton, but to show that we'd be no better off with Cutler or Sanchez, a point I was making during all of the rumors in the offseason.

I have no response for anyone who wants to see Collins play. We did see him play for a half against a horrible team and it was a disaster. Collins is old, can not move in the pocket, has a very weak arm and has far less snaps in this offensive scheme than Campbell. Collins only stayed in the league because he was an expert at Al Saunders' offense after a decade in it. Well, we're not running that offense, so Collins is essentially useless to us. I felt we should have let him go and kept both Brennan and Daniel. That may have happened if Colt hadn't laid a rotten egg in his chance to win the #2 spot.[/quote]

In my opinion, the purpose of this thread was a discussion of stats in relation to how campbell is playing. If the stats are saying that Campbell is playing well, then I think the numbers are lying - especially the last game with the eagles.

When you analyze campbell's play, I think you look at the plays that was under his control or had opportunities to make plays. If you think that it was the offensive linemen's fault or a wide receiver's fault for a play breaking down, then fine, throw those away and look at the others. I think if you do it this way, it is more of a fair accessment of how Campbell has played. I won't hide that the fact that I am very opinionated, but I feel I tell it how it is. And to me, just analyzing his play and only his play alone - I think he is playing terrible. Missed touchdowns/big plays, turnovers, terrible pocket presence. These are probably the big three that he HIMSELF contributed to the redskins losing (remember just analyzing what he had a fair amount of control over).

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;618002]And you guys cant get all over Sanchez, ITS HIS 1st YR IN THE SYSTEM. --this excuse was brought to you by JC supporters everywhere--

Name another 1st round QB who has been with a team for 5 yrs and has yet to make the playoffs. thats still in the league. I cant think of any right off hand.[/quote]
thank you