Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905522]Lets keep some perspective here.
Moss has always been one of the better YAC receivers.[/quote]

When he was in his prime, sure. But he appears to be on the decline. More on the topic:

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37154/redskins-looking-for-more-yac]Redskins looking for more YAC? - NFC East Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905505][B]You wouldn't be [I][B]relying[/B][/I] on them as deep threats or 'explosive' players.[/B]
Moss is a move around guy at this point and his greatest production is from the slot.
Armstrong and Hankerson would be the 'vertical' WRs.
But, its all moot anyway.

The additions of Garcon and Morgan without a doubt improve the WRs corps.[/quote]

I know, but I wasn't trying to argue that point.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905332]For me its a question of team building philosophy.

Our OL last year was better then the year prior.

But, if I'm building an offense and a team around a young QB I want to aim higher then being better then terrible along the OL.

Griffin would provide an automatic boost to the passing game by himself.
No one is saying Gaffney and Moss are top level WRs.
But if they can be productive with McNabb and Rex then they'll be productive with Griff.
We build the OL ride with Moss, Gaffney, Armstrong give Hankerson a chance to develop and draft a WR.
But the focus would be on upgrading the OL specifically the RT but addressing RG would've been good also.

I like Garcon and Morgan, don't get me wrong.
[B]But I would have prefered to improve the OL this year then address WR next year after we see what we have in Hankerson and the other WRs.[/B][/quote]

I don't understand this line of thinking.. If we got better offensive linemen would that make Moss or Gaffney younger or more explosive after the catch? Would that make Armstrong more capable of beating press coverage? Would that make Austin or Paul or Robinson any better route runners or more prepared to play WR at the NFL level?

A 'better offensive line' probably gets a QB an extra .5 to .625 more of a second to throw than what we were trotting out there last year. Our offense isn't a 7 step, wait til someone gets open offense. It's based on timing rhythm and yards after the catch. Sure it could improve but it wouldn't make our WR any more skilled.

Outside of Hankerson (who we don't quite know yet what he can do over 16 games) the existing limitations of our current WR group is pretty clear..

Gaffney-Limited explosiveness, little to no deep speed, limited YAC
Moss-Less explosive than 2 yrs ago, no longer a deep threat, injuries, drops
Armstrong-Runs one route, can't get off the line, questionable hands at times
Austin-Hasn't developed beyond a #4 WR in 2 years, as a 7th rounder that's probably his cap
Paul-Needs to develop his route running and overall game, wasn't considered to be a threat for the top 2 spots in the WR rotation anyways.
Robinson-Has speed but needs a great camp to make the team as a PS player in '11 and a lower round draft pick.
Banks-Has the build of a 5th grader.

Exactly what was the problem in upgrading our worst (other than QB) overall position group?

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905522]Lets keep some perspective here.
Moss has always been one of the better YAC receivers.[/quote]

Let's keep this in perspective. The year is 2012.

"Has" should be replaced with "was" in your sentence.

[QUOTE=Paintrain;905578]I don't understand this line of thinking.. If we got better offensive linemen would that make Moss or Gaffney younger or more explosive after the catch? Would that make Armstrong more capable of beating press coverage? Would that make Austin or Paul or Robinson any better route runners or more prepared to play WR at the NFL level?

A 'better offensive line' probably gets a QB an extra .5 to .625 more of a second to throw than what we were trotting out there last year. Our offense isn't a 7 step, wait til someone gets open offense. It's based on timing rhythm and yards after the catch. Sure it could improve but it wouldn't make our WR any more skilled.

Outside of Hankerson (who we don't quite know yet what he can do over 16 games) the existing limitations of our current WR group is pretty clear..

Gaffney-Limited explosiveness, little to no deep speed, limited YAC
Moss-Less explosive than 2 yrs ago, no longer a deep threat, injuries, drops
Armstrong-Runs one route, can't get off the line, questionable hands at times
Austin-Hasn't developed beyond a #4 WR in 2 years, as a 7th rounder that's probably his cap
Paul-Needs to develop his route running and overall game, wasn't considered to be a threat for the top 2 spots in the WR rotation anyways.
Robinson-Has speed but needs a great camp to make the team as a PS player in '11 and a lower round draft pick.
Banks-Has the build of a 5th grader.

Exactly what was the problem in upgrading our worst (other than QB) overall position group?[/QUOTE]

Yeah this team needs playmakers And not every team has a Great oline, GB doesn't And they do just fine

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Mattyk;905562]I know, but I wasn't trying to argue that point.[/quote]Then I'm at a loss:
[quote][QUOTE=Mattyk;905494]Neither guy is the kind of [U]reliable[/U] deep threat you need.....We need more explosive plays and these guys just don't cut it in that department.[/quote][quote=30gut;905505]You wouldn't be [I][B]relying[/B][/I] on them as deep threats or 'explosive' players.
Moss is a move around guy at this point and his greatest production is from the slot.[/quote][/QUOTE]

[quote=Mattyk;905560]When he was in his prime, sure. But he appears to be on the decline. More on the topic:

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37154/redskins-looking-for-more-yac]Redskins looking for more YAC? - NFC East Blog - ESPN[/url][/quote]Maybe Moss is on the decline.
But the man broken his hand this year and still hand a relatively productive season.
The year prior he was top 10 in yards and receptions.
From 2008-2010 his YAC 5.5, 5.4, 5.4 then this year [I]while playing through a broken hand[/I] it dropped to 4.4.
I don't see this year as a 'decline' year but as an [I]injured[/I] year.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Paintrain;905578]I don't understand this line of thinking...Exactly what was the problem in upgrading our worst (other than QB) overall position group?[/quote]To answer your question about the 'problem':

Given the limited resources avaibable in FA especially a FA that has been truncated by 16+ million dollars and that FA is a zero sum game where one acquisition often limits or prevents another WR imo is lower on the team building totem poll then other positions especially OL and ILB.

In your haste to disagree I feel like you didn't even read my post as most of your premises/(rhetorical) questions have nothing to do with my points.

I said nothing about the OL making the WRs more explosive or any of the things you said.

I'll restate my points if I wasn't clear before:

o For me its a question of team building philosophy.

o For me improving pass protection is more important then upgrading the WRs



BTW-
How did Armstrong end with 19.8 ypc 2 years ago?
Pretty good for a guy that 'can't get off press'

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905601]BTW-
How did Armstrong end with 19.8 ypc 2 years ago?
Pretty good for a guy that 'can't get off press'[/quote]

Because teams hadn't caught up to his weaknesses. That following year they realize he can't get off the bump press at the line of scrimmage, his stats and usefulness plummeted. This has been verified by several insiders that I follow. Don't expect Armstrong to be around unless he's found a way to get past the bump coverage at the LOS.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905601]To answer your question about the 'problem':

Given the limited resources avaibable in FA especially a FA that has been truncated by 16+ million dollars and that FA is a zero sum game where one acquisition often limits or prevents another WR imo is lower on the team building totem poll then other positions especially OL and ILB.

In your haste to disagree I feel like you didn't even read my post as most of your premises/(rhetorical) questions have nothing to do with my points.

I said nothing about the OL making the WRs more explosive or any of the things you said.

I'll restate my points if I wasn't clear before:

o For me its a question of team building philosophy.

o For me improving pass protection is more important then upgrading the WRs



BTW-
How did Armstrong end with 19.8 ypc 2 years ago?
Pretty good for a guy that 'can't get off press'[/quote]
So let me restate my question to align with your points. What improvement do you expect from the same WR personnel with improved pass protection? What's wrong with the philosophy of improving your weakest position group?

Here's the problem with citing 2010 Armstrong and Moss stats. It's 2012. You can't ignore a year and say, but they used to be good. Moss had a bunch of drops (pre and post hand injury) and his YPC was actually 2 yards better post injury (11.4 vs. 13.5) so the 'injured year' statement doesn't hold much water.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

People need to understand that our WRs were not scaring anyone last year. Granted, that neither was Rex Grossman. However, our o-line problems last year were mostly due to these two factors.

No defense in the NFL was worried about having one of their corners one-on-one with our WRs, I would say that many of them dared us to throw b/c they knew that we didn't have a playmaker at wideout and that Rexy was good for a pick or two each game.

I feel that we've addressed these one of these issues in free agency with these wideouts, not to mention the potential we have in Hank and Davis. Now in the draft we will bring a signal caller that has good accuracy and will benefit from having a good wideout group to throw to. RG3 will very likely not hold the ball too long or be inaccurate, which have been the two mistakes that have been killing our o-line and QB play forever.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=mbedner3420;905525]I hope we add Tommy Streeter to the roster and let him develop for a year or two.[/quote]

Would be nice to sign that guy and hide him for a year or 2.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Paintrain;905619]So let me restate my question to align with your points. What improvement do you expect from the same WR personnel with improved pass protection?[/quote]Again you're missing or ignoring my point.
Improving the WR production would not be my main objective.
For this year I wouldn't have been concerned with using the limited [I][B]FA[/B][/I] resources to improve the WR production.
If there is improvement in WR production it would come from the upgrade at QB and the normal development of young WRs (Hankerson specifically) and the return of a healthy Moss and Armstrong (if he's even back).
And if there were additional FA resources after we addressed the OL and ILB then I look at the remaining FA WRs (maybe a Harry Douglas or an Early Doucet).

But, in year 1 of my rookie QB's development my main objectives would be to win upfront at the LOS and protect my QB with a solid running game and good pass protection.

WRs would be at the bottom of my list on team building scale.
A lot of production from a passing game is a function of chemistry which is built over time.
A QB that is comfortable and knows his offense can help WRs develop and elevate their production.
And once an offense is built its easier to plug in a WR foregein to the system to the system like Garcon/Morgan will be.

[quote]Here's the problem with citing 2010 Armstrong and Moss stats. It's 2012. You can't ignore a year and say, but they used to be good.[/quote]Where have I made the above point?

[quote]Moss had a bunch of drops (pre and post hand injury) and his YPC was actually 2 yards better post injury (11.4 vs. 13.5) so the 'injured year' statement doesn't hold much water[/quote]I don't think Moss had enough drops to be a meaningful sign of decline especially post injury.

Do you really think cherry picking the stats above is meaningful? Every game has its own circumstances and when you don't take the stats as whole it almost renders them meaningless because you don't know what the [I][B]causes[/B][/I] were.

At 33, chances are Moss is on the decline. Not saying he can't still be a productive player, but he's no longer the explosive player he once was.

With Garçon, Morgan, Hankerson, and Davis we have a nice group of guys that can make things happen down the field and after the catch.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Mattyk;905718][B]At 33, chances are Moss is on the decline. Not saying he can't still be a productive player, but he's no longer the explosive player he once was.[/B]

With Garçon, Morgan, Hankerson, and Davis we have a nice group of guys that can make things happen down the field and after the catch.[/quote]

Which is why we tried to sign Royal as Moss's replacement, but didn't... And why (I beleive) we'll draft a slot WR/RS to replace Moss and Banks in the 4th or 5th round this year.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[QUOTE=vallin21;905738]Which is why we tried to sign Royal as Moss's replacement, but didn't... And why (I beleive) we'll draft a slot WR/RS to replace Moss and Banks in the 4th or 5th round this year.[/QUOTE]



Joe Adams

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Joe Adams makes alot of sense... Shanahan coached him in the Senior Bowl, and Adams had a good game (8 Rec, 133 yds)

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

wow people want to [I][B]draft[/B][/I] a WR too?

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Lol

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

No I don't WANT to, but I think we will.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Hopefully Robinson or Austin will step up for the slot reciever I beleive we have an OTA before the draft.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

One ota isn't enuff to keep mike from picking a wr.. I don't agree I say roll with wat we have

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Well Garcon is underrated but a great WR. Hope he can do well in DC!

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

It's gonna come down to an open competition in camp and preseason, that's how Shannahn has done it since he has been the Redskins coach. I think after an open competition Santana Moss remains. He will win the competition. IMHO.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Mattyk;905718]At 33, chances are Moss is on the decline. Not saying he can't still be a productive player, but he's no longer the explosive player he once was.

With Garçon, Morgan, Hankerson, and Davis we have a nice group of guys that can make things happen down the field and after the catch.[/quote]


No disrespect Matty but out of the group of receivers you mention in this post, Moss is the only proven home run threat. Defensive coordinators do not game plan for Garcon, but they had better account for Santana Moss when he is on the field.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

We're ok at receiver. Defense and OL will be the focus in the draft.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;905777]No disrespect Matty but out of the group of receivers you mention in this post, Moss is the only proven home run threat. Defensive coordinators do not game plan for Garcon, but they had better account for Santana Moss when he is on the field.[/quote]

When was the last time Moss broke free for a long touchdown of over 50 yards? 2008 punt return against Detroit? Moss is no longer the speedy young wideout capable of taking the top off a defense, and all the drops he had last year indicate the game is catching up to him. If he was, the Redskins wouldn't have sought an upgrade at wideout.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

It does appear that the Redskins are all set at wide receiver. But if someone is still available somewhere in the draft that Bruce Allen or Mike Shanahan likes, then they will draft that player if they feel he can contribute to the offense or special teams in some way.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=mooby;905783]When was the last time Moss broke free for a long touchdown of over 50 yards? 2008 punt return against Detroit? Moss is no longer the speedy young wideout capable of taking the top off a defense, and all the drops he had last year indicate the game is catching up to him. If he was, the Redskins wouldn't have sought an upgrade at wideout.[/quote]2009 vs. Tampa Bay. A week after doing it in Detroit.

It's been about that long since Moss was a guy you design plays for.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;905785]2009 vs. Tampa Bay. A week after doing it in Detroit.

It's been about that long since Moss was a guy you design plays for.[/quote]

If nothing else, he should be an average possession receiver at this point in his career but I wouldn't even trust him to do that with all the drops he had last year. Sometimes it looked like he was just half assing it out there. Unless Griffin comes in and reignites the fire under his ass I don't see him being a #1 or even a #2 this season.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;905785]2009 vs. Tampa Bay. A week after doing it in Detroit.

It's been about that long since Moss was a guy you design plays for.[/quote]

If you'll recall, Moss caught a 49 yard TD last year vs New England. In 2010, according to NFL.com statistics, Moss caught a pass for 56 yards. Whether that went for a TD or not, I'm not certain.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

His catch rate dropped by 20% last year, even though Grossman's completion percentage wasn't measurably different from 2010 McNabb. Moss is [B]still[/B] excellent at finding the void in the zone, but he's no longer excellent at bringing the ball in when open.

It's been about six years since he was able to beat a team's top corner in man-to-man without a schemed double-move and anticipation throw by his quarterback. The way to make Santana Moss an effective receiver again is to make him a secondary or tertiary option in the passing game that will draw the opponents third corner, or a soft corner with limited safety help.

Unfortunately, that description kind of fits Garcon as well.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=mooby;905783]When was the last time Moss broke free for a long touchdown of over 50 yards? 2008 punt return against Detroit? Moss is no longer the speedy young wideout capable of taking the top off a defense, and all the drops he had last year indicate the game is catching up to him. If he was, the Redskins wouldn't have sought an upgrade at wideout.[/quote]Last year he had 49 yard TD catch.

But, it really isn't Tana's role any more to be a vertical WR he's much more of a slot guy now.
And 50 yard TD is kinda an arbitrary measure of performance.

40+ yard pass plays are rare enough and those are actually recorded.
So rather then go from memory Tana had 3 40+ yard pass plays in 2010 which tied him with Dez Bryant, Jacoby Ford, Calvin Johnson, Roddy White.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;905790]If you'll recall, Moss caught a 49 yard TD last year vs New England. In 2010, according to NFL.com statistics, Moss caught a pass for 56 yards. Whether that went for a TD or not, I'm not certain.[/quote]I don't remember the 2010 one, but the 49 yard one last year was on a trick play where he was so open that Banks missed the target by about 8 yards and he still scored.

Moss actually had a bunch of long ones in 2010, so I stand corrected on how recently Moss has been able to run away from DBs. Four plays in excess of 30 yards, which is a good season.

I think the quality of Moss' 2010 season was vastly overrated, but it was by far his best campaign in the last four or five.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;905794]I think the quality of Moss' 2010 season was vastly overrated, but it was by far his best campaign in the last four or five.[/quote]I don't get the sense that his 2010 was overrated at all being that most people don't remember his production and seem eager to see him gone.

I think breaking his hand had a lot to do with the drop in his catch rate.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905795]I don't get the sense that his 2010 was overrated at all being that most people don't remember his production and seem eager to see him gone.[/quote]Well, it was more an "at the time" thing. In the context of who Santana Moss has been since 2007 -- a guy who was behind Antwaan Randle El in the third down progression -- his 2011 season was disappointing (in terms of catch rate), but not totally or inexcusably below expectation.

I think you hit it on the head when you allude to the fact that the difference between Moss in 2010 and Moss in 2011 is health and natural aging. I just happen to disagree on which season was the aberration. I think Moss was in rare health in 2010, which allowed him to be effective late in the season and hit marks in receptions and yards and touchdowns that he hadn't hit since earlier in his career. Also putting a lot more "good" tape out there in the process.

Which caused the Redskins to vastly overpay him that offseason.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;905796]I think you hit it on the head when you allude to the fact that the difference between Moss in 2010 and Moss in 2011 is health and natural aging. I just happen to disagree on which season was the aberration. I think Moss was in rare health in 2010, which allowed him to be effective late in the season and hit marks in receptions and yards and touchdowns that he hadn't hit since earlier in his career. Also putting a lot more "good" tape out there in the process.

Which caused the Redskins to vastly overpay him that offseason.[/quote]I don't think they [I]vastly[/I] overpaid him in 2010, did they have a slight soft spot for their own talent? I would agree that the guaranteed money suggests that.

We just see Tana differently then.
Tana has been the primary WR for most of his tenure as a Redskins without much help from his WRs corps and consequently teams could double him as they saw fit and he has still been a productive WR.
2010 was an example of what Tana could do in scheme that doesn't allow him to doubled easily.

This past season he broke his hand and imo that limited his production (and the production of the passing offense in his absence) moreso then his age.
Prior to the signing of Garcon/Morgan I would have thought that Moss could have continued near his 2010 level of production if he maintained the same role within the offense.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=30gut;905798]I don't think they [I]vastly[/I] overpaid him in 2010, did they have a slight soft spot for their own talent? I would agree that the guaranteed money suggests that.

We just see Tana differently then.
Tana has been the primary WR for most of his tenure as a Redskins without much help from his WRs corps and consequently teams could double him as they saw fit and he has still been a productive WR.
2010 was an example of what Tana could do in scheme that doesn't allow him to doubled easily.

This past season he broke his hand and imo that limited his production (and the production of the passing offense in his absence) moreso then his age.
Prior to the signing of Garcon/Morgan I would have thought that Moss could have continued near his 2010 level of production if he maintained the same role within the offense.[/quote]The Eagles always use a deep safety to take Moss away because 1) it limits the Redskins offensive potential, and 2) their best CB (Samuel) was never a man-to-man guy.

But the Giants have just put Corey Webster on Moss in each one of the last 8 matchups, and prior to his TD against them this year (against Amukamara/blwon coverage), just effectively erased him and reduced him to a guy throwing his fists around. Webster typically doesn't even get a safety over the top, he just erases Moss from the stat sheet entirely one on one.

And obviously, Dallas never did figure out how they could slow him down, hence his reputation as a Cowboys killer. Then again, Dallas hasn't really slowed down any other receivers either. Either way, I don't think it's accurate to say he's constantly doubled. The Eagles, sure, but the Eagles are a zone team so someone is getting the deep safety no matter who they are playing.

I don't disagree with your point that Kyle's offense presented Moss with additional opportunities to draw one on one matchups, plus matchups against zone, which was a partial (arguably large) reason for his relatively successful 2010 season. I do however question the wisdom of giving those opportunities to Moss.

Of course, I also question the wisdom of these two WR signings, so maybe I'm just trying to have it both ways. Call me on that if you must, but I will say that I saw the Colts start to develop plays to bring Garcon out of the slot last year to get more favorable matchups, so it's possible that Garcon is going to replace Moss outright, now that Royal isn't in the fold.

Of all the (non-Moss) WRs on our roster, Garcon actually has the most experience coming out of the slot, which he did a few times last year.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;905799]
But the Giants have just put Corey Webster on Moss in each one of the last 8 matchups, and prior to his TD against them this year (against Amukamara/blwon coverage), just effectively erased him and reduced him to a guy throwing his fists around. Webster typically doesn't even get a safety over the top, he just erases Moss from the stat sheet entirely one on one.[/quote]Perry Fewell is a cover 2 coach hence the Giants rarely leave their CBs on an island.

I'm not sure I disagree with anything else in your post.

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Testing

Re: Redskins Add WRs Pierre Garcon and Joshua Morgan
 

Hopefully we don't take any wr's. The funny thing is Shanahan wanted to bring in ANOTHER wr in Royal. I will never understand this organizations obsession with wr's.