Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;677990][URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/20/tea-party-protests-nier-f_n_507116.html"]Tea Party Protests: 'Ni**er,' 'Fa**ot' Shouted At Members Of Congress[/URL]

classy stuff here[/quote]

That's pathetic, and those narrow minded and ignorant protesters give a bad name to those against this health care bill.

However, unlike social security and medicare, the people were fiercely divided over this issue, and at the time of it's passage the approval ratings of Congress and Obama are at all time lows.

Classic democrat move- we don't care what you think, we know what's best.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=12thMan;677952][QUOTE=firstdown;677942]Thats the I'm a looser clause in the bill because full time students can allready stay covered under their parents policy until they are out of school. So these are probably the kids who are not going to school and are not working because if they had a job their employer would have to pay for their health coverage and play mommy and dady. Just think of those anti drug comercials and the mom yelling up for the guy to get a job while he is smoking a joint in his bed room.[/QUOTE/

Well it's not that cut and dry. This is one of the largest segments of uninsured in the country right now. I believe it's about a third; that's a lot of people. [SIZE=3]In fact, many of these kids are working full time jobs, they just can't freaking afford health insurance. Especially the ones who have recently graduated from college.[/SIZE] Currently the age limit will vary from state to state, [SIZE=3]but for most states the cut-off is 18/19 yrs old.[/SIZE]

So this provision will take a huge chunk of the uninsured that show up in emergency rooms or that need medical care and provide them coverage almost immediately.[/quote]

Getting kicked off the parents policy at 18 to 19 is if they are not full time students. Premiums for a 19 yr old range from $50 to $140 depending on the type of policy they purchase. They sure seem to be able to afford cell phones which would by them a policy. I'd say most are like I was back when I was younger and feel they don't need health ins. because they don't have health issues.

I have a sales person who sells supplemental ins policies to employees of different businesses (think Aflack the duck but our product is better and cheaper). She will tell me right up front if its a business where most employees are under age 30 don't waist our time because they just don't buy these products. She then explains that most if they have the choice to either pocket the money or have the employer provide health ins. a large % put the money in their pocket. She has 25 yrs in the supplimental and health ins. field working on the front line so she knows what she is talking about. Yes there are some who just cannot afford it but that % is low.

Now that I think about it when my oldest was born back in 1985 I had no health ins and paid the doctors and hospital in cash/check. I had it all paid $2,000 before she was born but my X need a C section which cost another $2,000 which I paid the hospital in payments.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;677996]That's pathetic, and those narrow minded and ignorant protesters give a bad name to those against this health care bill.

However, unlike social security and medicare, the people were fiercely divided over this issue, and at the time of it's passage the approval ratings of Congress and Obama are at all time lows.

[B]Classic democrat move- we don't care what you think, we know what's best[/B].[/quote]

Let's be honest, whichever party is in control pushes their agenda down our throats, W and his crew mastered that move too.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678006]Let's be honest, whichever party is in control pushes their agenda down our throats, [B]W and his crew mastered that move too[/B].[/quote]They did? What in particular?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mredskins;677984][quote=mlmpetert;677979]


Why should anyone have to take that gamble? If you lose you jeopardize having a family, things to lose, etc... because you are so buried in debit.[/quote]
So I'd like to set an appintment for you in my office so I can sell you maybe 7 to 10 different policies so you don't take any gambles in your ins needs. My point is everyone takes gambles of some kind when it comes to ins protection. Maybe the goverment should now provide dental, life ins. long term care, disability, retiment account, etc... because we dont want anyone to take any risk. Man I just wished everyone was like you and purchased every type of ins. Oh, I forgot cancer coverage, or how about gap ins, and lets not forget mortgage protection. Please bring your check book when you come because this will get pretty expensive nad you might want to take out a second job.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678008]They did? What in particular?[/quote]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


Tax Cuts (the creation of the biggests deficit ever)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;677990][URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/20/tea-party-protests-nier-f_n_507116.html"]Tea Party Protests: 'Ni**er,' 'Fa**ot' Shouted At Members Of Congress[/URL]

classy stuff here[/quote]
How come with all the cameras and news media around DC did no one catch any of this on film? Not saying it didn't happen I just find it strange. If it did happen those are the people that we don't need period.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678008]They did? What in particular?[/quote]

Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...

Re: Obama Care
 

Tax Cuts!!!! Following their philosophy without using common sense. I see stuff like this all the time being form South Carolina. You can repeat no taxes no taxes no taxes. Then get mad when you get embarassed on national TV for not fulfilling your true job as a public servant and that is to serve the freaking public interests. You will get a Republican elected everytime in South Carolina, but can you get a school system that's not ranked 50th in the nation is my question. Can you get unemployment outta double digits and this was before W, is my question. Can you lower the states infant mortality rate lower than let's say North Korea? These are my questions.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678017]Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...[/quote]
Just to be 100% accurate Bush cut off federal funding for stem cell research but it was 100% legal for drug companies to do the research on their dime.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;678014][quote=mredskins;677984]
So I'd like to set an appintment for you in my office so I can sell you maybe 7 to 10 different policies so you don't take any gambles in your ins needs. My point is everyone takes gambles of some kind when it comes to ins protection. Maybe the goverment should now provide dental, life ins. long term care, disability, retiment account, etc... because we dont want anyone to take any risk. Man I just wished everyone was like you and purchased every type of ins. Oh, I forgot cancer coverage, or how about gap ins, and lets not forget mortgage protection. Please bring your check book when you come because this will get pretty expensive nad you might want to take out a second job.[/quote]




Health Insurance is a necessity a lot of the other insurances you mentioned are luxuries. Do you think a baby or child should have to gamble on their health care because their parent can't find affordable health insurance?

And why the F do you care all it means to you is that you have to get rid of one of your 4 workers and the other 3 will have to pick up the slack of the .5 person worth of work left. Maybe and here is a thought you could cut into your profit or basically your paycheck from your businees and retain that person and give everyone the chance at health insurance in your office. Here are some thoughts on saving money: sell your boat, take fewer fishing trips, don't cut out early to play golf (green fees), or cut back on those business trips you keep telling the govt. you are going on.

In reality the 4th person that you need to layoff should be on here bitching not you, they are the ones getting kicked in the nuts.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678017]Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...[/quote]Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
[URL="http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070620-5.html"]Message to the Senate of the United States[/URL]

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mredskins;678027][quote=firstdown;678014]




Health Insurance is a necessity a lot of the other insurances you mentioned are luxuries. Do you think a baby or child should have to gamble on their health care because their parent can't find affordable health insurance?

And why the F do you care all it means to you is that you have to get rid of one of your 4 workers and the other 3 will have to pick up the slack of the .5 person worth of work left. Maybe and here is a thought you could cut into your profit or basically your paycheck from your businees and retain that person and give everyone the chance at health insurance in your office. Here are some thoughts on saving money: sell your boat, take fewer fishing trips, don't cut out early to play golf (green fees), or cut back on those business trips you keep telling the govt. you are going on.

In reality the 4th person that you need to layoff should be on here bitching not you, they are the ones getting kicked in the nuts.[/quote]

You really seem to take account of everyting I post. Thank You.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678038]Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
[URL="http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070620-5.html"]Message to the Senate of the United States[/URL]

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.[/quote]


Umm, the current crop of Republicans in Congress, ummm that dog don't hunt.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mredskins;678027][quote=firstdown;678014]
Health Insurance is a necessity a lot of the other insurances you mentioned are luxuries. Do you think a baby or child should have to gamble on their health care because their parent can't find affordable health insurance?

And why the F do you care all it means to you is that you have to get rid of one of your 4 workers and the other 3 will have to pick up the slack of the .5 person worth of work left. Maybe and here is a thought you could cut into your profit or basically your paycheck from your businees and retain that person and give everyone the chance at health insurance in your office. Here are some thoughts on saving money: sell your boat, take fewer fishing trips, don't cut out early to play golf (green fees), or cut back on those business trips you keep telling the govt. you are going on.

In reality the 4th person that you need to layoff should be on here bitching not you, they are the ones getting kicked in the nuts.[/quote]I don't want to interrupt the back and forth with you and fd, but just wanted to share a couple of things to think about.

1) There are already state programs in place to provide health insurance for children (SCHIP). No new gov't program is needed here.

2) Why should fd or anyone who owns a small business have to cut into their business profits to provide health insurance for someone? If fd choses to offer health coverage it makes it more attractive to employees to work at his company, if he choses not to, that's his choice. He should not be mandated by the government to provide health insurance coverage.

My wife and I own a small restaurant (as a side business, I have a full-time job). Due to the economic downturn, we are working several more hours per week to keep "above water". Can I go to the federal government and have a mandate that my employees have to work for less money per hour so I can cover all the expenses? Will my employees cover the rent for April? Of course not. Keep in mind the financial risk small business owners take before you suggest they just "cut profits".

Re: Obama Care
 

To be fair to SS33 and 1st Down I have not walked in your small business owner shoes, so I really don't have a leg to stand on.

But I do feel like this country needs some reform in terms of health care the current system is flawed.

Also the quote system is all jacked up for some reason.

Re: Obama Care
 

Last I checked the people elected Barack Obama with an overwhelming majority who knew, by the way, that he was going to pass universal healthcare as his top domestic priority. This notion that the people are "against" this bill doesn't square with the people voting Democratic majorities to both the House and Senate, and a Democrat into the White House. The polls are all over the place on this bill and have been for sometime. Unfortunately the loudest opponents of it have been getting the most media coverage and have clouded the debate and the merits of the bill.

I say let the dust settle and we'll see who's really against it and who's for it.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=mredskins;678057]To be fair to SS33 and 1st Down I have not walked in your small business owner shoes, so I really don't have a leg to stand on.

But I do feel like this country needs some reform in terms of health care the current system is flawed.

Also the quote system is all jacked up for some reason.[/quote]You are absolutely right on health care reform, there are flaws in our system and reforms need to be made. We just disagree on the how. Unfortunately the folks we all pay to get it straightened out, haven't (and this goes to both sides of the aisle for many years). I believe the current bill will ultimately do far more harm than good.

Re: Obama Care
 

Our health care system is fine. It's why people come here for it. Now how much it costs and how insurance works...that's f'd up. I wish it was called what it really is. Health insurance reform.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678038]Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
[URL="http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070620-5.html"]Message to the Senate of the United States[/URL]

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did.[B] Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle[/B].

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.[/quote]

And Obama didn't try? People on the left were actually criticizing Obama for trying to be bi-partisan, especially after the Republicans clearly were unwilling to compromise whatsoever.

Also, the reason things like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act passed, was because the Republicans made it nearly impossible for politicians to oppose these things. I personally wish that the Democrats had taken a page out of the Republicans when it came to opposing the Iraq War.

Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Ruhskins;678064]And Obama didn't try? People on the left were actually criticizing Obama for trying to be bi-partisan, especially after the Republicans clearly were unwilling to compromise whatsoever.

Also, the reason things like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act passed, was because the Republicans made it nearly impossible for politicians to oppose these things. I personally wish that the Democrats had taken a page out of the Republicans when it came to opposing the Iraq War.

Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.[/quote]

Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;678076]Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.[/quote]

The Democrats are terrible when it comes to being the opposition party. Like I said, I wish they were more like the Republicans when it comes to this.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678038]Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
[URL="http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070620-5.html"]Message to the Senate of the United States[/URL]

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.[/quote]

You can't fault Obama for trying to be bi-partisan. Lord knows he did try at every step. Ultimately the fact that it wasn't can't be blamed solely on Obama. In the face of all the mischaracterization and all the b.s. I'm suprised he didn't give up sooner.

BTW, did you see the new [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm?csp=hf"]USA Today poll[/URL]? Or that [URL="http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/03/22/rel5a.pdf"]pre-vote CNN poll[/URL] (43% oppose reform because it's too liberal, 13% oppose it because it is not liberal enough and 39% support it)? Or the [URL="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/wsjnbcpoll03162010.pdf"]WSJ/NBC poll[/URL] released last weekend (36% think it's a good idea while 48% don't...46% of those people also think that it's better to pass ObamaCare where as 45% don't it is)?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678050]I don't want to interrupt the back and forth with you and fd, but just wanted to share a couple of things to think about.

1) There are already state programs in place to provide health insurance for children (SCHIP). No new gov't program is needed here.

2) Why should fd or anyone who owns a small business have to cut into their business profits to provide health insurance for someone? If fd choses to offer health coverage it makes it more attractive to employees to work at his company, if he choses not to, that's his choice. He should not be mandated by the government to provide health insurance coverage.

My wife and I own a small restaurant (as a side business, I have a full-time job). Due to the economic downturn, we are working several more hours per week to keep "above water". Can I go to the federal government and have a mandate that my employees have to work for less money per hour so I can cover all the expenses? Will my employees cover the rent for April? Of course not. Keep in mind the financial risk small business owners take before you suggest they just "cut profits".[/quote]


By not providing healthcare to his employees FD is silently passing on the cost of covering his employees to the tax payers.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=12thMan;678059]Last I checked the people elected Barack Obama with an overwhelming majority who knew, by the way, that he was going to pass universal healthcare as his top domestic priority. This notion that the people are "against" this bill doesn't square with the people voting Democratic majorities to both the House and Senate, and a Democrat into the White House. The polls are all over the place on this bill and have been for sometime. Unfortunately the loudest opponents of it have been getting the most media coverage and have clouded the debate and the merits of the bill.

I say let the dust settle and we'll see who's really against it and who's for it.[/quote]

With Republicans running on a full repeal platform the electoral prospect of the Democrats just got insanely better.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;678087]With Republicans running on a full repeal platform the electoral prospect of the Democrats just got insanely better.[/quote]

What's sort of perplexing to me is that their new strategy is: Repeal, Reform, and Replace. In other words, they are going to propose an entirely new bill to replace the one that just passed. Huh?

How they plan on jumping from a meager 3 million being covered to 32 million without making some wholesale changes to the current system is beyond me.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;678084]By not providing healthcare to his employees FD is silently passing on the cost of covering his employees to the tax payers.[/quote]

You need to go back and read my post about me providing health care to my employees and you also assume that they don't have health ins. Have you ever thought that they are on their spouses plan because they offer it at a lower cost. I will say if your the bread winner then I'm not the place for you to work. My employees are the second income and while I can't afford to pay them as bread winners I do what I can to provide them a good paying job. I'm also probably alot more flexable then most when they need to take off to deal with family issues so there is alot of give and take. Right now my employees have been with me 10, 10, 16 years so its not like I have them running in and out.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678038]Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
[URL="http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070620-5.html"]Message to the Senate of the United States[/URL]

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.[/quote]
Why must you always use logic , and facts ??? :)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;678084]By not providing healthcare to his employees FD is silently passing on the cost of covering his employees to the tax payers.[/quote]No he's not. If his employees (fd, I know they won't I saw your post) chose not to obtain coverage and need medical attention that winds up being gov't funded that's on them, not fd.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;678097]You need to go back and read my post about me providing health care to my employees and you also assume that they don't have health ins. Have you ever thought that they are on their spouses plan because they offer it at a lower cost. I will say if your the bread winner then I'm not the place for you to work. My employees are the second income and while I can't afford to pay them as bread winners I do what I can to provide them a good paying job. I'm also probably alot more flexable then most when they need to take off to deal with family issues so there is alot of give and take. Right now my employees have been with me 10, 10, 16 years so its not like I have them running in and out.[/quote]


My post is not about you but about employers who don't provide covrage at all. The fine is not per employee that you dont't provide coverage for but employees that dont have covrage at all...so you're not going to get fined if they get insurance through their spouses.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;678099]Why must you always use logic , and facts ??? :)[/quote]

So you call the Iraq War logic?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=12thMan;678091]What's sort of perplexing to me is that their new strategy is: Repeal, Reform, and Replace. In other words, they are going to propose an entirely new bill to replace the one that just passed. Huh?

How they plan on jumping from a meager 3 million being covered to 32 million without making some wholesale changes to the current system is beyond me.[/quote]

They are beyond absurd. How do they plan on getting it through the senate and signed by the president is beyond me. These silly people are just that, silly and not to be taken seriously.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;678099]Why must you always use logic , and facts ??? :)[/quote]


Yeah i know its not emotional enough to make a good decision on!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Ruhskins;678064]Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.[/quote]I didn't bring up the Iraq War, Matty did and I was responding to him.

To your points: on Iraq, hindsight is 20/20. The Iraq War resolution was bi-partisan and the intel that was used as a basis to move forward with the war came from a Clinton hold-over. Bush's biggest mistake was keeping any Clintonites around.

Please give me one example of the Patriot Act being used to falsely imprison or prosecute an American citizen.

Protecting U.S. citizens from terrorist attack is far more important than this particular health reform bill.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678119]I didn't bring up the Iraq War, Matty did and I was responding to him.

To your points: on Iraq, hindsight is 20/20. The Iraq War resolution was bi-partisan and the intel that was used as a basis to move forward with the war came from a Clinton hold-over. Bush's biggest mistake was keeping any Clintonites around.

Please give me one example of the Patriot Act being used to falsely imprison or prosecute an American citizen.

Protecting U.S. citizens from terrorist attack is far more important than this particular health reform bill.[/quote]

I don't have as radical negative opinion of the Patriot Act as some people on the left do. My point is that some people act like this Health Care reform is the worst thing in the world and that the world itself is going to end because of it. To me, making the decision to go to war with Iraq with questionable purposes, without an exit strategy, and without an end, is far worst than this Health Care bill.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Ruhskins;678108]So you call the Iraq War logic?[/quote]
I did not specify the war . The truth is , for the 10 years prior to the war ,the Clinton Admin. bombed Iraq , drafted a war act < 97 I think > and used the WMD/ Nuke threat . Al Gore stated throughout the 90's that Iraq had WMD's and ties to terror groups < all on youtube > . The FBI and CIA directors < Clintons > were on the WMD reports . France/Germany and Russia stated in the Security Council meetings they believed Iraq had WMD's.... hell Dems were stating that Rumsfeld supplied WMD's to Iraq . Iraq did have a WMD program , how far it was advanced , nobody knows , how much of a threat was Iraq to us in 2001 , don't know that either . As far as the Patriot Act .... every single American living between south NJ through Boston .... are very , very .... very lucky we had a patriot act ! Had we not had some bums like Gorelick [url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/mistress_of_disaster_jamie_gor.html]American Thinker: Mistress of Disaster: Jamie Gorelick[/url] in our Gov't .... maybe we would have been better off to begin with .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Ruhskins;678128]To me, making the decision to go to war with Iraq with questionable purposes, without an exit strategy, and without an end, is far worst than this Health Care bill.[/quote]In terms of immediate loss of U.S. life the Iraq War decision is certainly worse. However how many lives did we save in the process, be they U.S., Iraqi, or possibly other nations that could've been a victim of terrorism sponsored or funded by Saddam or people murdered directly by Saddam and his regime. The Kurds are certainly glad we overthrew Saddam.

In terms of money, this health care bill is likely to be far worse than expenditures on the Iraq War in overall burden to the National Debt.

I agree with you that the country is certainly not going into a revolution or the world stop spinning on it's axis because of this law. However, with this new law we will see a further erosion in personal freedoms/personal choice, further intrusion into the private secor by the federal government, further expansion of the federal government's power over the states, increased taxes and an increase in the National Debt. Providing health coverage for the uninsured, working through the pre-existing conditions issues, and allowing more competition for health coverage could've been done in a different way.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;678140]I did not specify the war . The truth is , for the 10 years prior to the war ,the Clinton Admin. bombed Iraq , drafted a war act < 97 I think > and used the WMD/ Nuke threat . Al Gore stated throughout the 90's that Iraq had WMD's and ties to terror groups < all on youtube > . The FBI and CIA directors < Clintons > were on the WMD reports . France/Germany and Russia stated in the Security Council meetings they believed Iraq had WMD's.... hell Dems were stating that Rumsfeld supplied WMD's to Iraq . Iraq did have a WMD program , how far it was advanced , nobody knows , how much of a threat was Iraq to us in 2001 , don't know that either . As far as the Patriot Act .... every single American living between south NJ through Boston .... are very , very .... very lucky we had a patriot act ! Had we not had some bums like Gorelick [URL="http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/mistress_of_disaster_jamie_gor.html"]American Thinker: Mistress of Disaster: Jamie Gorelick[/URL] in our Gov't .... maybe we would have been better off to begin with .[/quote]Good points, all.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678147]Good points, all.[/quote] Thank you . I do not like war , I would guess 95 % of Americans would love to never see a war . Of course , had Saddam allowed the U.N. WI team into Iraq in early 2002 , this war would have never happened ? Maybe one day we have fewer bums like Hitler/Stalin/Castro/Hugo and maybe more nations work to keep any dictator from ruling over others . When does our NFL season start :)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;678155]Thank you . I do not like war , I would guess 95 % of Americans would love to never see a war . Of course , had Saddam allowed the U.N. WI team into Iraq in early 2002 , this war would have never happened ? Maybe one day we have fewer bums like Hitler/Stalin/Castro/Hugo and maybe more nations work to keep any dictator from ruling over others . When does our NFL season start :)[/quote]Our draft just got finished.