Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1196768]So there wasn’t a way to diffuse the situation? I don’t think anyone should have gotten shot. Seems like the Wild West.[/QUOTE]I don't know if there was a way, but clearly running out of the store and attacking the guy didnt diffuse the situation either. There were probably 4 to 5 critical choices leading to the final outcome, 2 were by the shooter.
The shooter could have not confronted the lady about illegal parking. I would not have.

The woman could have acknowledged there were other spots and moved.

The attacker could have walked out and verbally engaged the shooter, which would have opened many other options

The shooter could have waited to see if the attacker was reaching for a gun or adjusting his waistband.


My point is that the final act of the shot isn't an isolated action and that all 3 players made decisions that escalated instead of de-escalated the situation.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196768]So there wasn’t a way to diffuse the situation? I don’t think anyone should have gotten shot. Seems like the Wild West.[/quote]

There is a problem with that law.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/af/d9/41afd9bdc8bde002cb119869007dfc3c.png[/IMG]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1196768]So there wasn’t a way to diffuse the situation? I don’t think anyone should have gotten shot. Seems like the Wild West.[/QUOTE]


It is the Wild West with that “stand your ground” BS, fucking Florida

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196769]I don't know if there was a way, but clearly running out of the store and attacking the guy didnt diffuse the situation either. There were probably 4 to 5 critical choices leading to the final outcome, 2 were by the shooter.
The shooter could have not confronted the lady about illegal parking. I would not have.

The woman could have acknowledged there were other spots and moved.

The attacker could have walked out and verbally engaged the shooter, which would have opened many other options

The shooter could have waited to see if the attacker was reaching for a gun or adjusting his waistband.


My point is that the final act of the shot isn't an isolated action and that all 3 players made decisions that escalated instead of de-escalated the situation.[/quote]


The shooter also could have pulled and kept it in a stance that said "if you advance, you're dead."

Aka draw, aim it halfway between the ground and center mass, tell the guy "you move any closer and you die." If I'm an unarmed man and some guy draws on me, I'm standing down. Especially if it's some gung-ho redneck not playing around.

If the formerly alive guy had any sense whatsoever he would've realized it wasn't worth it and backed off. Then shooter calls the cops and lets them sort it out.

Instead he won't get that opportunity. Is pushing a guy a death sentence?

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1196774]The shooter also could have pulled and kept it in a stance that said "if you advance, you're dead."

Aka draw, aim it halfway between the ground and center mass, tell the guy "you move any closer and you die." If I'm an unarmed man and some guy draws on me, I'm standing down. Especially if it's some gung-ho redneck not playing around.

If the formerly alive guy had any sense whatsoever he would've realized it wasn't worth it and backed off. Then shooter calls the cops and lets them sort it out.

Instead he won't get that opportunity. Is pushing a guy a death sentence?[/QUOTE]I agree - if he thought about the guy advancing. The time from push to shot was 2 to 3 seconds. The part i think is critical is the 1 second as the shooters head turns and focuses, and i think he saw the hand movements of the attacker going to his back waist and thought a weapon(gun) was coming out.

Another part of the video that is obscured is what causes the attacker to run towards the shooter. If the shooter laid hands on the woman at all, then none of what i am suggesting matters anyway because the act of pushing the shooter away was warranted to begin with.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

What I thought was critical was if the ass hole had just minded his own business and walked away then nothing would have happen but that is just me.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1196776]What I thought was critical was if the ass hole had just minded his own business and walked away then nothing would have happen but that is just me.[/QUOTE]I said the same thing a few posts earlier. And also if you know you are carrying, and going to put yourself into a possible confrontation then the standard should be higher.

I doubt he wins the upcoming wrongful death suit, because while its likely not a criminal act i think he certainly holds civil liability.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196776]What I thought was critical was if the ass hole had just minded his own business and walked away then nothing would have happen but that is just me.[/quote]

I see no problem with calling out folks for that...I work with several people with physical disabilities who need those spots. I work with a lady and it takes her 15 mins to walk into the building and yet she comes to work and decided not to sit home and collect a check.

This generation of faux concern and at the sametime over-sensative...at their core it still remains selfishness level we have never seen in our society. What I want the media not to do now is try to paint the couple as great people...they are still assholes, incompetent and inconsiderate. Let’s remember, that guy first instinct was to attack that guy...in front of his kid...instead of talking it out. He clearly didnt have the mental capacity in conflict resolution either.

But I still believe absolutely zero reason someone had to die over the incident. The shooter should be at minimum faceing manslaugher. I don’t think we want as a society people pulling guns at the slightest physical threat or altercation such as parking spaces. This stand your ground needs to be re thought...

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196778]I see no problem with calling out folks for that...I work with several people with physical disabilities who need those spots. I work with a lady and it takes her 15 mins to walk into the building and yet she comes to work and decided not to sit home and collect a check.

This generation of faux concern and at the sametime over-sensative...at their core it still remains selfishness level we have never seen in our society. What I want the media not to do now is try to paint the couple as great people...they are still assholes, incompetent and inconsiderate. Let’s remember, that guy first instinct was to attack that guy...in front of his kid...instead of talking it out. He clearly didnt have the mental capacity in conflict resolution either.

But I still believe absolutely zero reason someone had to die over the incident. The shooter should be at minimum faceing manslaugher. I don’t think we want as a society people pulling guns at the slightest physical threat or altercation such as parking spaces. This stand your ground needs to be re thought...[/quote]
Hint, not your job. There are signs, if they are being violated you call a Policeman.My wife is one that use's those parking spots and we run into that shit all the time can't think of one time where it was worth pulling a gun out and killing someone .

The guys first instinct was coming out and seeing someone in a confrontation with his wife and he intervened , see no reason for a gun to be drawn the video is clear.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196779]Hint, not your job. There are signs, if they are being violated you call a Policeman.My wife is one that use's those parking spots and we run into that shit all the time can't think of one time where it was worth pulling a gun out and killing someone .

The guys first instinct was coming out and seeing someone in a confrontation with his wife and he intervened , see no reason for a gun to be drawn the video is clear.[/quote]

If your wife doing it with other spots available, then that’s bullshit. Inconsiderate.

Not a physical confrontation...if you see someone arguing then you think ok to put hands on someone? To get physical? No sorry, your breaking the law then and should be arrested.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1196779]Hint, not your job. There are signs, if they are being violated you call a Policeman.My wife is one that use's those parking spots and we run into that shit all the time can't think of one time where it was worth pulling a gun out and killing someone .

The guys first instinct was coming out and seeing someone in a confrontation with his wife and he intervened , see no reason for a gun to be drawn the video is clear.[/QUOTE]The guy saw someone parking in the handicap spot and first instinct was to correct them versus calling the police (which we all know would not have resulted in any thing)

The guy came out and first instinct was to attack the guy arguing with his wife

The guy was attacked and first instinct was to defend himself with deadly force.

I have found the culprit

Its this g**d*** guy called first instinct

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196780]If your wife doing it with other spots available, then that’s bullshit. Inconsiderate.

Not a physical confrontation...if you see someone arguing then you think ok to put hands on someone? To get physical? No sorry, your breaking the law then and should be arrested.[/quote]
My wife is handicapped she use those spots we have the tags and placards ,you're practicing the jump the gun media you hate so much chico.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196781]The guy saw someone parking in the handicap spot and first instinct was to correct them versus calling the police (which we all know would not have resulted in any thing)

The guy came out and first instinct was to attack the guy arguing with his wife

The guy was attacked and first instinct was to defend himself with deadly force.

I have found the culprit

Its this g**d*** guy called first instinct[/quote]

The first instinct was to protect his wife

The guy had no ,none ,justification to open up with deadly fire.

The cult will defend the crazy till the end.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

For two such astute people you sure seem to miss alot on that video , like the couple going into the store obviously noticing the man over at the parked car and most likely btelling someone in the store there was an "altercation going on outside" and yes a good 4-5 seconds goes by between the push and the shooting I see you also miss the fact the man who did the pushing was backing up when shot.

[url]https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand-your-ground-law-protects-shooter-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196784]My wife is handicapped she use those spots we have the tags and placards ,you're practicing the jump the gun media you hate so much chico.[/quote]

Oh well ha, that’s a big difference. Fuck people using them...that’s what I’m saying.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196780]If your wife doing it with other spots available, then that’s bullshit. Inconsiderate.
.[/quote]

:stop:

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196785]The first instinct was to protect his wife

The guy had no ,none ,justification to open up with deadly fire.

The cult will defend the crazy till the end.[/quote]

G1, do you realize we all are basically in agreement that the shooter was in the wrong?

I said he's likely to lose any wrongful death lawsuit. Chico said the law needs to change. Do you just want to argue for argument sake?

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196790]G1, do you realize we all are basically in agreement that the shooter was in the wrong?

I said he's likely to lose any wrongful death lawsuit. Chico said the law needs to change. Do you just want to argue for argument sake?[/quote]

LOL, no you're not. Your spin is admitting the shooter was wrong and then immediately blame the dead guy. Even when the two of you are in agreement with someone it has to be on your terms.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196790]G1, do you realize we all are basically in agreement that the shooter was in the wrong?

I said he's likely to lose any wrongful death lawsuit. Chico said the law needs to change. Do you just want to argue for argument sake?[/quote]

G1 is thinking a lot of how I see most people express opinions today...its like binary code 0 and 1...black and white, true and false, ying and yang, good and bad, like and dislike, thumbs up and thumbs down

Most want to be one way or the other and more important, they want consistency. That way its less thinking involved...social media has really made this worse.

Yes you can support the NRA and support forms of gun control, Yes you can be pro-immigration and support building a wall to secure a border, Yes you can be pro-environment issues and support deregulation of silly energy policy etc.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196791]LOL, no you're not. Your spin is admitting the shooter was wrong and then immediately blame the dead guy. Even when the two of you are in agreement with someone it has to be on your terms.[/quote]

hi pot

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196795]G1 is thinking a lot of how I see most people express opinions today...its like binary code 0 and 1...black and white, true and false, ying and yang, good and bad, like and dislike, thumbs up and thumbs down

Most want to be one way or the other and more important, they want consistency. That way its less thinking involved...social media has really made this worse.

Yes you can support the NRA and support forms of gun control, Yes you can be pro-immigration and support building a wall to secure a border, Yes you can be pro-environment issues and support deregulation of silly energy policy etc.[/quote]

I get what you're saying with this, it's not always black and white as people want it to be.

But seriously, if it comes out that the NRA took up to 30 mil of Russia's money and funneled it to the Trump campaign that would be the last straw for me. It's bad enough they blanket oppose any regulation whatsoever.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196797]hi pot[/quote]

#triggered

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196795]G1 is thinking a lot of how I see most people express opinions today...its like binary code 0 and 1...black and white, true and false, ying and yang, good and bad, like and dislike, thumbs up and thumbs down

Most want to be one way or the other and more important, they want consistency. That way its less thinking involved...social media has really made this worse.

Yes you can support the NRA and support forms of gun control, Yes you can be pro-immigration and support building a wall to secure a border, Yes you can be pro-environment issues and support deregulation of silly energy policy etc.[/quote]

To quote your buddy. "hi pot"!



You were so ready to jump me you never bothered to read my post you just assume my wife was doing the wrong thing. Chico you preach but you don't practice .

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196759]But defending yourself from a young physically fit man(regardless of race) who has attacked you isnt cool. Got it.

Keep in mind, I doubt that the guy introduced himself and said he had a 5yo in the store and i am sorry we parked in a handicapped spot. Its nice to add facts after the event happens, but in the moment all this guy knew is whatever the lady had said to him and that this guy came out and attacked him.

I am sorry the man lost his life and especially that the children lost their father.

Finally, I wonder if it would have happened if the initial interaction between the lady and man included the woman apologizing and parking in a different spot.[/quote]

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/gma/victims-girlfriend-says-florida-gunman-provoked-fatal-stand-095904222--abc-news-topstories.html[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196804]To quote your buddy. "hi pot"!



You were so ready to jump me you never bothered to read my post you just assume my wife was doing the wrong thing. Chico you preach but you don't practice .[/quote]

no I just misread/misunderstood your post. mistakes...I make them.

sorry bud, but obviously due to my previous post I was sympathizing with those who are handicap and do need those spots. I get mad when I see someone taking them.

Or you can simply refer to me as Chico the handicap basher...if that's the narrative you chose and simply ignore that previous post. Cherry pick what you like...very CNN of you.

When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1196754]I simply don’t understand how that video is lawful. Instead of pulling the gun the guy should have called the police and the victim should have been charged with simple assault. That law needs to change.[/QUOTE]


Correct.
Winner winner chicken dinner.
End of story.
Thanks Chico. Was about to read about 100 posts to catch up but this says it all for me early on and ill just call it a day. [emoji106]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1196807]no I just misread/misunderstood your post. mistakes...I make them.

sorry bud, but obviously due to my previous post I was sympathizing with those who are handicap and do need those spots. I get mad when I see someone taking them.

Or you can simply refer to me as Chico the handicap basher...if that's the narrative you chose and simply ignore that previous post. Cherry pick what you like...very CNN of you.[/quote]

LOL, How very trump of you to not take responsibility.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1196821]LOL, How very trump of you to not take responsibility.[/quote]

Dude really? The first line? Or the second? Come on man.

Actually, I blame obama...now that’s your bigly hero.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

I thought it might be interesting to look at the applications for the "SYG" statute. Here is what I am using as the basis:

[url=http://www.husseinandwebber.com/case-work/criminal-defense-articles/self-defense-florida/]Florida Law on Self-Defense | Use of Deadly and Non Deadly Force[/url]

Under the "Use of Deadly Force" header, you can find the two legal justifications for "SYG."

They are:

[quote]
There are two primary statutes in Florida outlining when the use of deadly force is justified so as to avoid criminal liability. Under Section 776.012, Florida Statutes (Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law), [B]a person is justified in using deadly force (and does not have a duty to retreat) if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony or to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another. [/B]

(Personal note: 2nd statute not applicable in this case)
[/quote]

So I ask, (and while fully admitting assault is wrong and the guy easily had grounds for being arrested and charged) did it appear like the gun owner was in imminent danger of a forcible felony being committed? No. Did it appear like death was imminent or even great bodily harm for that matter? No. Ergo, I believe the qualifications for stand your ground were not met. The guy went and picked a verbal fight, got surprised when a third party escalated it into a physical confrontation, and killed somebody over the shitty act (but not worthy of a death sentence) of taking a handicapped parking spot.

I don't think the guy was in danger of great bodily harm or death, and he should be charged with manslaughter at a minimum.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Off the first report and the video, and given that the county had said SYG applied, I accepted that and defended the concept strongly. BUT I will say given the additional facts that the shooter had been provoking and trying to provoke responses, I am going to say I fully expect the state's attorney to review the county's decision and overturn it. The SYG laws assume you to be a responsible citizen first. Provoking arguments repeatedly with the apparent desire to cause a confrontation would seem to negate that.

I still leave it in the State of Florida's system, who has more access to all the facts - not just media facts, but I think it's going to be that the shooter does get prosecuted. And I will applaud that decision if they make it.

edit: it sounds like the state of Florida is not going to prosecute either.
Separately, here is the girlfriend's response on her parking in the handicap spot when questioned by a CBS reporter:
[QUOTE]‘He wanted me to move my car,’ Jacobs told CBS News. ‘But I have my right to park anywhere I want to park.’[/QUOTE]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

another thing that G1 can enjoy hearing, more people feel the country is headed in the right direction than at ANY TIME in Pres Obama's 2nd term.

[url]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/direction_of_country-902.html[/url]

Full disclosure, more people feel it's headed in the wrong direction, 54 to 40, but the 39.7 approve number is higher than since Dec 2012. and the 2 month spike in fall 2012 was at election time. Before that you have to go back to October 2009 to get where the same percentage of Americans thought the country was headed in the right direction.

Think about that. Pres Trump, with all the negative media, has a higher percentage of Americans that think the country is headed in the right direction, than Obama did for all but 2 months in his final 7 years.

The reverse is true too, [B]FEWER people think the country is headed in the wrong direction then they did in all of Pres Obama's second term[/B], and more than 3/4's of Pres Obama's 1st term.

That was with the media glowing over Pres Obama, and berating Pres Trump.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Trump buying votes...........



[url]https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-buying-votes-not-helping-farmers-202958144.html[/url]


Trump is buying votes, not helping farmers

A classic motif of comedy is the small lie that requires ever-bigger lies to maintain the deceit, until the whole fraud collapses with the deceivers exposed.

This is what President Trump’s trade policy is starting to feel like. First, Trump told us his trade wars would be “easy to win.” Just trust him. Then he launched his trade wars, with tariffs on steel and aluminum imports and a separate group of imports from China.

Those trade partners retaliated with similar tariffs on U.S. exports, hurting sales of agricultural exports and some other products. So now Trump has unveiled a counter-retaliatory un-tariff, to make American farmers whole.

The Agriculture Department said it will offer $12 billion worth of aid to farmers, ranchers and others hurt by the escalating trade wars. It’s not what farmers asked for. They simply wanted Trump to rescind his tariffs and make nice with trading partners—er, enemies. Instead, Trump has found a way to address some of the political damage his trade wars are causing in states crucial to the upcoming midterm elections, while maintaining his leverage against China and other trade-war participants. Trump can disburse the money without Congressional action.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

If you are going to have a trade war, that is how you win a trade war. You have to convince the other side that you will out last them. China just did basically the same thing - [url]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cenbank-banks/china-boosts-liquidity-set-for-more-policy-easing-as-trade-war-threatens-economy-idUSKBN1K91KB?il=0[/url]

The goal isn't to hurt US farmers but to get US producers better access to foreign markets and fairer competition world wide.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Good thing the gov't has millions of Americans it can use to prop up that aid we have to give to farmers now so they aren't affected by the trade war.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

There is a difference between subsidizing a dependency creation state (ie welfare) and an independency creation state (ie fair open markets across the nations).
(think "give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime" type idea)

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1196870]Good thing the gov't has millions of Americans it can use to prop up that aid we have to give to farmers now so they aren't affected by the trade war.[/quote]

Yeah...I don’t think im down with that. Rand Paul said the something similar....Tell ya old rand Paul starting to reach baller status.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196867]If you are going to have a trade war, that is how you win a trade war. You have to convince the other side that you will out last them. China just did basically the same thing - [url]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-cenbank-banks/china-boosts-liquidity-set-for-more-policy-easing-as-trade-war-threatens-economy-idUSKBN1K91KB?il=0[/url]

The goal isn't to hurt US farmers but to get US producers better access to foreign markets and fairer competition world wide.[/quote]
LOL Cred, what a crock of BS!

[url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/charleswallace1/2018/07/24/trump-offers-farmers-12-billion-bailout-for-trade-war/#7ad5d2c51d89[/url]


Sen. Ben Sasse, a Nebraskan Republican, lashed out a Trump for interfering with free trade and then offer a bailout package to farmers as compensation.


“This trade war is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House’s ‘plan’ is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches,” Sasse said in a statement. “America’s farmers don’t want to be paid to lose – they want to win by feeding the world. This administration’s tariffs and bailouts aren’t going to make America great again, they’re just going to make it 1929 again.”

The sheer size of the bailouts is a good measure of the fear felt in Republican circles about the potential negative impact of a trade war on the mid-term congressional elections this November.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Lets not forget many of these farms are corporations and donate "political money".

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1196871]There is a difference between subsidizing a dependency creation state (ie welfare) and an independency creation state (ie fair open markets across the nations).
(think "give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime" type idea)[/quote]

Or we can call it what it is. Buying votes. Trump loses farmers that's a big chunk of his base. 12 billion is apparently the going rate to keep their support.