Commanders Post at The Warpath

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- Debating with the enemy (http://www.thewarpath.net/forumdisplay.php?f=75)

- - Obama Care (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=30288)

[quote=dmek25;568729]•"The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds." "World Health Organization Assesses The World's Health Systems," Press Release, WHO/44, June 21, 2000. [url=http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html]PR-2000-43/ WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION : ASSESSES THE WORLD'S HEALTH SYSTEMS[/url]
back to the facts...[/quote]

This flaws in this statement have already been debated and discussed.

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;565492][URL="http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12667987"]Carroll: U.S. health care is not inferior - The Denver Post[/URL]

[URL]http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf[/URL]

Evidence from countires with socialized medicine show higher mortality rates than the U.S. for cancer and significantly longer wait times for treatments. Do some research and don't drink the Obam-Aid.[/quote]

I believe there was a more detailed breakdown of the flaws, I just couldn't find it. To me, the factaul basis of the WHO raniking are debatable and the factual conclusions and the reasoning used to reach those conclusions are faulty.

I'm with you bro. Socialized medicine is a nightmare, and we've only to look no further than Canada and the UK for all the evidence we need. If you get cancer or any serious disease in the UK, it's practically a death sentence. If you're in Canada...well, at least you can come to the USA for treatment, but with Obamacare, that's about to change.

It's good to see that ABC has given up its attempts to hide its liberal bias. Those guys are in the tank for the the hard left and will do anything they can to help further their agenda, even if it means distorting the facts and not giving voice to dissenters. Many of those dissenters are Blue Dog Democrats and other moderates.

Even if you don't know all the specifics of Obamacare... why pass it NOW, when we're in the worst economic times in 80 years? What is the rush to push this through without any open debate about it? And if you trust Obama...why? The stimulus was a massive failure, yet will cost us for generations. He promised it would curb unemployment, and that by NOT passing it, it would go all the way to 9%. Well, they passed it, and now we're on our way to 10% unemployment. But we have added 10 TRILLION in debt (most of it earmarks) for the next decade. Obama attempts to allay our fears by making up unquantifiable statistics such as "jobs saved" -- which cannot be identified or tracked by the census bureau.

The simple truth--and one that should piss off ALL Americans irrespective of their political leanings--is that this administration and this congress is hurrying to pass this train-wreck of a bill before the American people have a chance to learn what's in it. We are being lied to about what it will cost us over time, and we are being fed a lie about how we will get to keep the coverage many of us already have. No one who is voting for it will read it in its entirety, and none of us will have an opportunity to, either.

A big NO on socialized heathcare.

[quote=JoeRedskin;568646]So what is your point? That an economic metaphor used to analyze the correlation between self interest and effect on large scale economics is pointless? Or is it that self-interest on large scale has effect has no effect on economics of scale? That the question raised by SS33

And arguments raised by CRedskin:

Are without value?

Enlighten me, oh brilliant self righteous one, on why the concept of statistical probability as it relates to the correlation of maximizing public good through self interest is irrelevant, invalid or otherwise meaningless in the health care setting. Apparently, it is your belief that your understanding of economic theory is clearly far superior to any and all comers and is equally applicable in all markets regardless of the goods and services being exchanged. I wish to understand the facts, assumptions and reasoning of this flawless theory.[/quote]

Finally Joe, you're using something other than a jab. Now that the jabs are out of the way let me get right to the heart of the matter, the invisible hand with respect to universal healthcare. I am bewildered by the notion that the invisible hand can and does play a role in the healthcare setting. How does the invisible hand help Aunt Jane avoid medical bankruptcy or help Uncle Joe get his two kids, himself and his wife covered whilst making $10 an hour? Sure, nothing precludes them from making more money thanks to the invisible hand but do you realize that poor people have been with us since the dawn of time? I know, it's hard to believe right?

Now here come [URL="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html"]the numbers[/URL] that aught to interest you Joe. Are you ready for the next round Joe? First lets define what it means to be poor in this country. [URL="http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml"]Per federal guidelines[/URL] an individual making less $10,830 is considered below poverty line and so is a family of four making $22,050. I hear you whisper so? So here's the thing Joe...in 1959 (the date the feds started tracking poverty stats) the the percentage of American below the poverty line was 22.4% of individuals and 20.8% of families. Disgusting numbers right? By 1969 that number dropped down to 12.1% of individuals and 10.4% of families. That's a precipitous drop isn't it?

You being the second smartest Republican on this forum I'm sure you can look at the the actual historical numbers and figure out what precipitated the decline in poverty but just in case though here's a hint...[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_legislation#1961_to_1971"]the government was involved[/URL] with Civil Rights Act of 1960/1964, Pilot Food Stamp Program 1961-1664, Food Stamp Act of 1964, Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, Equal Pay Act of 1963, Public Works and Economic Development Act of 1965, Vocational Rehabilitation Act of 1965, and Social Security Act of 1965. After the 60s the national poverty percentages stabilized with minor fluctuation due to the the economy. Note the Ronald Reagan era when the invisible hand was the most active (we can lay all the blame for the high numbers on Carter if you want). The poverty rate for 2006 was 12.3% of individuals and 10.6% of families (the numbers are probably much worse for 2008). Peeewwww, nothing seems to have changed since the 70's.

Now I figure you know the tremendous strides we have made in the last 50 years with respect to our [URL="http://www.bea.gov/national/xls/gdplev.xls"]GDP[/URL] and [URL="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p01AR.html"]per capita income[/URL]. Given that the market has been functioning why hasn't the invisible hand improved our poverty rate since the 70's even though we're significantly economically stronger? Do we have to give the invisible hand more time? How long do you expect us to wait? In the mean time how do you expect these people below the poverty line to afford health insurance? What role does the invisible hand play in income inequality? What about the people hovering just above the poverty line?

As for SS33's post, if your tax rate is 33% you're not a mid-high end worker...if single and you make $171,550-$372,950 annual you're a high end worker and so is a married couple making 208,850-$372,950 annually (we're talking top 5% income earners here not top 25%-50)%. We've really addressed the issue of tax fairness before on many occasions and if you wish to revisit subject [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/28699-how-low-can-it-go-3.html#post533395"]this exchange with FRPLG[/URL] is one of my favorite on the matter.

With respect to CRR's post it is clear to me that neither individuals nor charities (invisible hands) have been able to solve the problem. And if I'm not mistaken S10's original gripe was with the pending proposal to cut DSH funding by the [I]government[/I]. It was pretty obvious to me that he shitted on the first part of the quote with the second part.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by self-righteous Joe. This label is quite perplexing seeing how it's being placed by you. Try as you may you still can't land an effective punch Joe, you really need to work on your lower/upper body strength.

So let's see, in the 60's the poverty rate declined because the government pointed their guns at the heads of the producers, stole more money from them and gave it to the bums. Well, I guess that's one way to do something about poverty.

As you pointed out, poverty has been around a very long time; but sorry to say, it will always be here. There will always be poor people. There won't be an economic system ever devised that will save absolutely everyone.

Case in point on the poor -- anecdotal, I know, but it's worth mentioning.

There's a homeless person that hangs around the area in which I live. He has a dog and a bicycle and has the familiar sign which reads: "Homeless. Need work. God Bless." So he stands around at red lights, and inevitably someone will roll down their window and give him a few bucks.

I've seen this guy for at least three years -- the amount of time I've lived in this area. Every now and then, someone will approach this person, talk to him for a few minutes and hand him a business card, or maybe it's just some way to contact them.

So the other day I'm in the grocery store getting some things for lunch and the homeless guy walks in. He walks in, and comes back to the clerk in less than a minute (I'm still in the 20 items or more lane). So what is he purchasing?

A twelve-pack of Natural Light.

I guess he has to buy food at some point, so the money that people are giving him do help out. But I can't help wondering, in all the time he's been carrying that sign, no one has ever offered him work? I know of churches that will take these people in, clean them up, give them food, and provide odd jobs to give them some money to get on their feet. There are numerous charities that do this.

But what's the one thing that has to happen for that to work? Initiative. That's right -- the homeless person has to [I]want [/I]to do it. They have to want a better life for themselves. Many times they don't want the help. I think they actually prefer the life they have. No place they have to be, and an endless supply of people who have some pity who can provide just enough money for beer. Now, the government could throw gobs of cash at these people if it wanted to -- but the question is what would they do with it?

Sometimes you actually have to [U]reach[/U] for the helping hand.

[quote=Beemnseven;568752][B]So let's see, in the 60's the poverty rate declined because the government pointed their guns at the heads of the producers, stole more money from them and gave it to the bums. Well, I guess that's one way to do something about poverty.[/B]

As you pointed out, poverty has been around a very long time; but sorry to say, it will always be here. There will always be poor people. There won't be an economic system ever devised that will save absolutely everyone.[/quote]

I expect nothing less from a know-nothing-conservative. You look good with a red nose.

See Joe, you got people like this clown on forum. If this joker actually knew anything he would know that taxes were reduced during the early 60's and the rich got richer.

I was at the grocery store today, and some idiot in front of me was trying to pay for his food with his food stamps card. It kept getting declined, and I sat there waiting for a good 10 minutes while he tried to get it figured out. In the meantime, while he was berating the cashier, I was checking out his nice new looking cell phone and shiny new sneakers. Good thing we give him food stamps so he can use his extra cash for the best kicks and hottest cell phone. I'm so happy my taxes are paying for his meals. :doh:

But yeah, government needs to keep getting bigger (while our deficit becomes more and more comical). Politics are so broken.

[quote=Beemnseven;568767]Case in point on the poor -- anecdotal, I know, but it's worth mentioning.

There's a homeless person that hangs around the area in which I live. He has a dog and a bicycle and has the familiar sign which reads: "Homeless. Need work. God Bless." So he stands around at red lights, and inevitably someone will roll down their window and give him a few bucks.

I've seen this guy for at least three years -- the amount of time I've lived in this area. Every now and then, someone will approach this person, talk to him for a few minutes and hand him a business card, or maybe it's just some way to contact them.

So the other day I'm in the grocery store getting some things for lunch and the homeless guy walks in. He walks in, and comes back to the clerk in less than a minute (I'm still in the 20 items or more lane). So what is he purchasing?

A twelve-pack of Natural Light.

I guess he has to buy food at some point, so the money that people are giving him do help out. But I can't help wondering, in all the time he's been carrying that sign, no one has ever offered him work? I know of churches that will take these people in, clean them up, give them food, and provide odd jobs to give them some money to get on their feet. There are numerous charities that do this.

But what's the one thing that has to happen for that to work? Initiative. That's right -- the homeless person has to [I]want [/I]to do it. They have to want a better life for themselves. Many times they don't want the help. I think they actually prefer the life they have. No place they have to be, and an endless supply of people who have some pity who can provide just enough money for beer. Now, the government could throw gobs of cash at these people if it wanted to -- but the question is what would they do with it?

Sometimes you actually have to [U]reach[/U] for the helping hand.[/quote]

There are [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-10-homeless_x.htm"]an estimated 744K homeless people[/URL] in this country. If you do the math that's 0.0025% of the population (744000 /296410404 = 0.0025%). Furthermore, it is estimated that nearly 40% of homeless people suffer from mental illness. Given all of this what about those that aren't homeless? The remaining ~12%+ of the population? Why play the f'ing homeless card when it clearly doesn't help your cause?

It's really getting harder and hard to think much of you or take you seriously dude.

I realize that last post has zero to do with health care. Random rant.

[quote=saden1;568769]I expect nothing less from a know-nothing-conservative. You look good with a red nose.

See Joe, you got people like this clown on forum. If this joker actually knew anything he would know that taxes were reduced during the early 60's and the rich got richer.[/quote]

[quote=Saden]You being the second smartest Republican on this forum I'm sure you can look at the the actual historical numbers and figure out what precipitated the decline in poverty but just in case though here's a hint...the government was involved with Civil Rights Act of 1960/1964, Pilot Food Stamp Program 1961-1664, Food Stamp Act of 1964, Economic Opportunity Act of 1964, Equal Pay Act of 1963, Public Works and Economic Development Act of 1965, Vocational Rehabilitation Act of 1965, and Social Security Act of 1965. After the 60s the national poverty percentages stabilized with minor fluctuation due to the the economy. Note the Ronald Reagan era when the invisible hand was the most active (we can lay all the blame for the high numbers on Carter if you want). The poverty rate for 2006 was 12.3% of individuals and 10.6% of families (the numbers are probably much worse for 2008). Peeewwww, nothing seems to have changed since the 70's.[/quote]

I took the information you provided here as the reason for "the decline in poverty" in the sixties Saden. Good Christ, read your own posts.

You get mighty belligerent around bedtime. Get some sleep and stop embarassing yourself.

[quote=GMScud;568774]I realize that last post has zero to do with health care. Random rant.[/quote]

But do you realize that you're expecting them not to have a phone they can reached by and that the cell phone can replace the landline? How is your expectation reasonable? You're also assuming quite a bit about this person's situation? They could be unemployed or fetching food for their grandmother.

[quote=saden1;568773]There are [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-10-homeless_x.htm"]an estimated 744K homeless people[/URL] in this country. If you do the math that's 0.0025% of the population (744000 /296410404 = 0.0025%). Furthermore, it is estimated that nearly 40% of homeless people suffer from mental illness. Given all of this what about those that aren't homeless? The remaining ~12%+ of the population? Why play the f'ing homeless card when it clearly doesn't help your cause?[/quote]

And again, the point remains that no matter what you do there will always be homeless people no matter what you do, no matter what economic system you're trying to change, no matter how much money you throw at them.

[quote=Saden]It's really getting harder and hard to think much of you or take you seriously dude.[/quote]

Funny, I was thinking the same about you, dude.

[quote=saden1;568779]But do you realize that you're expecting them not to have a phone they can reached by and that the cell phone can replace the landline? How is your expectation reasonable? You're also assuming quite a bit about this person's situation? They could be unemployed or fetching food for their grandmother.[/quote]

Thus the post you quoted in this response.

[quote=saden1;568779][B]But do you realize that you're expecting them not to have a phone they can reached by and that the cell phone can replace the landline?[/B] How is your expectation reasonable? You're also assuming quite a bit about this person's situation? They could be unemployed or fetching food for their grandmother.[/quote]

A touchscreen blackberry in a leather belt-clip and fresh all-white nikes don't exactly scream unemployed, but maybe he was. And maybe he was shopping for someone else. Again, that's why called it a random rant. My perception of him was assumptive. It's certainly possible I assumed wrongly. In this case I kind of doubt it though.