Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678156]Our draft just got finished.[/quote]
Yes it did , next up ..... to finish the giants/eagles and cowturds !!!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678146]In terms of immediate loss of U.S. life the Iraq War decision is certainly worse. However how many lives did we save in the process, be they U.S., Iraqi, or possibly other nations that could've been a victim of terrorism sponsored or funded by Saddam or people murdered directly by Saddam and his regime. The Kurds are certainly glad we overthrew Saddam.

In terms of money, this health care bill is likely to be far worse than expenditures on the Iraq War in overall burden to the National Debt.

I agree with you that the country is certainly not going into a revolution or the world stop spinning on it's axis because of this law. However, with this new law we will see a further erosion in personal freedoms/personal choice, further intrusion into the private secor by the federal government, further expansion of the federal government's power over the states, increased taxes and an increase in the National Debt. Providing health coverage for the uninsured, working through the pre-existing conditions issues, and allowing more competition for health coverage could've been done in a different way.[/quote]

Would you agree that Barack Obama won the presidency chiefly because of voter discontent over the war? There were a number of factors that led to his victory, no doubt. But in my mind, at the top of the list was Iraq. Polls were running heavily against the war by the 2008 election -- and the Republican response? Nominate a man who suggested we might be there "a hundred" more years.

As defiant as conservatives accuse the democrats of being with regard to health care, the GOP was just as defiant in the face of public opinion about the war in Iraq.

Assuming everything comes up roses in Iraq -- and that's an awfully big "if" -- would it be worth it if the price we had to pay was a Marxist in the White House who paved the way for nationalized health care?

Re: Obama Care
 

Remember people, according to Democrats like Representative Dingle, it's all about "control."

[YT]qgqJwlJ_m9Q[/YT]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;678163]Would you agree that Barack Obama won the presidency chiefly because of voter discontent over the war? There were a number of factors that led to his victory, no doubt. But in my mind, at the top of the list was Iraq. Polls were running heavily against the war by the 2008 election -- and the Republican response? Nominate a man who suggested we might be there "a hundred" more years.

As defiant as conservatives accuse the democrats of being with regard to health care, the GOP was just as defiant in the face of public opinion about the war in Iraq.

Assuming everything comes up roses in Iraq -- and that's an awfully big "if" -- would it be worth it if the price we had to pay was a Marxist in the White House who paved the way for nationalized health care?[/quote]
Where is it written in our Constitution that " we " can not buy health Insurance ? Do any of our states prohibit individuals from buying health ins. ? Most , if not all of the people on this site have stated that they were for reform , just would have liked a smaller , more direct bill . I think much of the concern is that the HC Bill could lead to higher debt , like we have in SS & MC . I think all of us want our elected to make good sound policy on everything from education , health , transportation , safe water , food ect. Hope this HC bill helps everyone that NEEDS help , not reward many who care nothing about / self/counrty ect. Nothing is for free and sometimes , we get what we pay for .

Re: Obama Care
 

We should have just copied France. Hands down the best healthcare in the world. People love to point to Canada for socialized medicine. But in a poll about healthcare, a majority of the top 30 countries (which the US was not a part of ranked 37th) have 'socialist' healthcare. Sorry folks, reform needed, and still needs, to happen. We need to be smarter about hospitals. Stop having every hospital getting each and every new gadget. You may have to travel a bit more to get the exact care, but the cost savings will be worth it if hospitals regionalise.

Here's a great article about the new bill, that highlights both the positive and negative. One thing to keep in mind, preventative care is much cheaper than waiting for someone to need hospitalization. I have a feeling that we'll see a lot more of that with this bill.

[url=http://kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/health-care-reform-tax-hikes-on-the-way.html]Health Care Reform: Tax Hikes on the Way - Kiplinger[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;678008]They did? What in particular?[/quote]

war

tax cuts during increased spending

etc

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;678063]Our health care system is fine. It's why people come here for it. Now how much it costs and how insurance works...that's f'd up. I wish it was called what it really is. Health insurance reform.[/quote]

Hell in that case we should reform all of our policies to only the strongest (economically) survive. Wave sayonara to the American Dream along with it.

Reagan would be proud.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;678076]Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.[/quote]

when you have false intelligence reports a lot is possible

Re: Obama Care
 

As JoeRedskin said. This thing will best be judged 10 years from now. Imagine, we will have had 3+ more superbowl rings for the Skins by and the US will be fiscally sound by then. It's easy if you try.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;678249]It's easy if you try.[/quote]
The problem with the people not liking this is

"Imagine there's no Heaven"

since the baby jesus declared america the best country we must do all to appease him!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=tryfuhl;678247]Hell in that case we should reform all of our policies to only the strongest (economically) survive. Wave sayonara to the American Dream along with it.

Reagan would be proud.[/quote] Yes , Reagan only wanted the filthy rich to have money and all labor workers and the enemployed to live in carboard shacks ???? So you think the Dems who had
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemp-Roth_Tax_Cut]Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] our taxes as high as 92% , no 401k plans , 1,000 / yr IRA contributions , 12-14% inflation rates and 14-22 % interst rates were fine , and helped the middle class ? In our system < Capitolism > everyone has the opprotunity to achieve wealth / higher standard of living .... it takes some hard work , dedication . Its like education and health care , if J. Doe cuts class , fails to put the time in to study , graduates ; does not attemp to learn a skill that will pay him a fair wage ... that is his choice . If J. Doe decides to ... drink, smoke , never exercise and like most people who have insurance , not go to a doctor , then even the best Ed. & HC system will do J.Doe and people like him any good . It is what we do as individuals that will determine what we have . Maybe you can explain to me how Dems are helping the middle class by taxing us up to and over $ 550,000 on what we leave our kids [url=http://wills.about.com/od/understandingestatetaxes/a/futureoftax.htm]What is the Future of the Estate Tax?[/url] ?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;678163]Would you agree that Barack Obama won the presidency chiefly because of voter discontent over the war? There were a number of factors that led to his victory, no doubt. But in my mind, at the top of the list was Iraq. Polls were running heavily against the war by the 2008 election -- and the Republican response? Nominate a man who suggested we might be there "a hundred" more years.[/quote]Agreed here. The GOP and the Bush Admin didn't effectively communicate on Iraq, the American people don't have the patience for a conflict like this, and McCain was certainly a less than stellar candidate.

[quote]As defiant as conservatives accuse the democrats of being with regard to health care, the GOP was just as defiant in the face of public opinion about the war in Iraq.[/quote]The difference here is that once the decision to go to Iraq was made, it was a requirement to win. No going back until Iraq was stabilized. The GOP had to be defiant and complete the job or it would've been disaster for our foreign policy and the safety of U.S. citizens long-term. Regardless of the politcal consequences.

The Dems hadn't completed the Obaminationcare bill, they could've pulled back, made concessions, etc. I even did the math, in a post earlier in this thread I believe, just giving a tax credit or voucher for the uninusred would've been dramatically more cost effective and kept the fed control out of the system. But to your post below, and I agree 100% this isn't about health care, it's about the left in this country making a larger voting block more dependent on gov't and solidifying themselves as the Politboru

[quote]Assuming everything comes up roses in Iraq -- and that's an awfully big "if" -- would it be worth it if the price we had to pay was a Marxist in the White House who paved the way for nationalized health care?[/quote]Knowing what we know now, considering the devestating effect this Admin & Congress are having on the National Debt and the economy, considering the long-term damage to our foreign policy, and the erosion of personal liberty & freedoms with the HC law just the beginning (if the GOP doesn't regain control of at least the House or Senate in Nov.) then the answer is absolutely not.

Bush should've made a top priority to rebuild the HUMINT component of our intel services in the Middle East and use covert ops to keep Saddam under wraps until hard evidence of WMDs or nukes was uncovered.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Daseal;678182]We should have just copied France. Hands down the best healthcare in the world. People love to point to Canada for socialized medicine. But in a poll about healthcare, a majority of the top 30 countries (which the US was not a part of ranked 37th) have 'socialist' healthcare. Sorry folks, reform needed, and still needs, to happen. We need to be smarter about hospitals. Stop having every hospital getting each and every new gadget. You may have to travel a bit more to get the exact care, but the cost savings will be worth it if hospitals regionalise.

Here's a great article about the new bill, that highlights both the positive and negative. One thing to keep in mind, preventative care is much cheaper than waiting for someone to need hospitalization. I have a feeling that we'll see a lot more of that with this bill.

[URL="http://kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/health-care-reform-tax-hikes-on-the-way.html"]Health Care Reform: Tax Hikes on the Way - Kiplinger[/URL][/quote]

All those stupid polls I have seen are from a bias source so they don't mean squat. You really think we rank 37th in world on health care? Don't point to the world Health Organization because they are for everyone having health ins./ national health care.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=tryfuhl;678248]when you have false intelligence reports a lot is possible[/quote]A Clinton hold-over provided the intel to Bush 2 for the Iraq War.

Re: Obama Care
 

Seeing how this thread now suffers the LastPageLink disease, maybe SmootSmack can look down upon us and open a new thread-maybe called:

ObamaCare: Episode 5-The Empire Strikes Back

and in 10 years when we revisit this we will start with:

ObamaCare - episode 1: the Phantom HC menace
episode 2: Attack of the PC clone wars (pc=politically correct)
episode 3: Revenge of the sick

and obviously this threads title will have to be changed to -

ObamaCare Episode 4- a New Hope

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;678063]Our health care system is fine. It's why people come here for it. Now how much it costs and how insurance works...that's f'd up. I wish it was called what it really is. Health insurance reform.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote]All those stupid polls I have seen are from a bias source so they don't mean squat. You really think we rank 37th in world on health care? Don't point to the world Health Organization because they are for everyone having health ins./ national health care.[/quote]

FD - I do believe that, one hundred percent. Part of healthcare is people having access to healthcare. We have good care in this country, but people having access to it is the issue. You saying that the World Health Organization is for 'everyone having healthcare'. No shit. The world health organization wants everyone to have health insurance and access to care?

The fact that you don't want everyone to have access to healthcare is more shocking. I love how people skirt the whole France issue that have a socialized setup that provides amazing healthcare to all of their residents. We're one of the very few developed nations without national healthcare coverage.

[quote]Despite the claim by many in the U.S. health policy community that international comparison is not useful because of the uniqueness of the United States, the rankings have figured prominently in many arenas. It is hard to ignore that in 2006, the United States was number 1 in terms of health care spending per capita but ranked 39th for infant mortality, 43rd for adult female mortality, 42nd for adult male mortality, and 36th for life expectancy.3 These facts have fueled a question now being discussed in academic circles, as well as by government and the public: Why do we spend so much to get so little?[/quote]
[url=http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2610&query=TOC]Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System | Health Care Reform Center[/url]

Take a look at this, and tell me that we're #1. We're lagging, severely in a lot of areas. [url=http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm]The U.S. has the best health care system in the world[/url]

Instead of blindly saying "The US is better than everyone" for every single category. Try to look and see that we're lagging behind a lot of countries in a lot of areas. That's not to say this isn't a great country, but we need to constantly improve to stay on top.

I'm sick of seeing people bitch about making this country better. Is the system perfect, absolutely not. It has flaws. But it's interesting, we have no problem with tax hikes to pay for bombs that cost billions, yet taking care of our own people, people lose control. Holy crap, you might have to provide decent insurance for your employees?!?!?!?! If you can't afford it, shut your doors and go get a job for someone that can.

This is ridiculous. People on this site are always talking about how the US needs to stop taking care of every other country and take care of ourselves. This is a step in the right direction. As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

We need much more reform than we have now. But I'll take this for a start.

Re: Obama Care
 

Also, the fact that people will now go in and get preventative care will drastically cut down on emergency bills, which are far more expensive. I bet we see some savings within the medical community based on that alone. I want a country where people don't have to avoid the Dr. because they can't afford it.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Daseal;678357]FD - I do believe that, one hundred percent. Part of healthcare is people having access to healthcare. We have good care in this country, but people having access to it is the issue. You saying that the World Health Organization is for 'everyone having healthcare'. No shit. The world health organization wants everyone to have health insurance and access to care?

The fact that you don't want everyone to have access to healthcare is more shocking. I love how people skirt the whole France issue that have a socialized setup that provides amazing healthcare to all of their residents. We're one of the very few developed nations without national healthcare coverage.


[URL="http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2610&query=TOC"]Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System | Health Care Reform Center[/URL]

Take a look at this, and tell me that we're #1. We're lagging, severely in a lot of areas. [URL="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm"]The U.S. has the best health care system in the world[/URL]

Instead of blindly saying "The US is better than everyone" for every single category. Try to look and see that we're lagging behind a lot of countries in a lot of areas. That's not to say this isn't a great country, but we need to constantly improve to stay on top.

I'm sick of seeing people bitch about making this country better. Is the system perfect, absolutely not. It has flaws. But it's interesting, we have no problem with tax hikes to pay for bombs that cost billions, yet taking care of our own people, people lose control. Holy crap, you might have to provide decent insurance for your employees?!?!?!?! If you can't afford it, shut your doors and go get a job for someone that can.

This is ridiculous. People on this site are always talking about how the US needs to stop taking care of every other country and take care of ourselves. This is a step in the right direction. As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

We need much more reform than we have now. But I'll take this for a start.[/quote]

Please go back and find the post where I said that I do not want people to have health care.

Yes Frances system is falling apart unless a women likes to have a baby in a fire truck;
[URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html"]France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com[/URL]

A worker only pays about 50% of their pay check for health coverage and still it is in a financial crises. Maybe they need to pay 75% of their pay check to make it better. [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html"]France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com[/URL]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Daseal;678357]FD - I do believe that, one hundred percent. Part of healthcare is people having access to healthcare. We have good care in this country, but people having access to it is the issue. You saying that the World Health Organization is for 'everyone having healthcare'. No shit. The world health organization wants everyone to have health insurance and access to care?

The fact that you don't want everyone to have access to healthcare is more shocking. I love how people skirt the whole France issue that have a socialized setup that provides amazing healthcare to all of their residents. We're one of the very few developed nations without national healthcare coverage.


[URL="http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2610&query=TOC"]Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System | Health Care Reform Center[/URL]

Take a look at this, and tell me that we're #1. We're lagging, severely in a lot of areas. [URL="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm"]The U.S. has the best health care system in the world[/URL]

Instead of blindly saying "The US is better than everyone" for every single category. Try to look and see that we're lagging behind a lot of countries in a lot of areas. That's not to say this isn't a great country, but we need to constantly improve to stay on top.

I'm sick of seeing people bitch about making this country better. Is the system perfect, absolutely not. It has flaws. But it's interesting, we have no problem with tax hikes to pay for bombs that cost billions, yet taking care of our own people, people lose control. Holy crap, you might have to provide decent insurance for your employees?!?!?!?! If you can't afford it, shut your doors and go get a job for someone that can.

This is ridiculous. People on this site are always talking about how the US needs to stop taking care of every other country and take care of ourselves. This is a step in the right direction. As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

We need much more reform than we have now. But I'll take this for a start.[/quote]
I can't speak for FD , but few of us think 1) the Fed should do nothing , 2) " we think the US is better than everyone " . I think most people would have liked a bill that would help people in need .... example , INS Co. not being able to cut coverage , to help people that have type 2 diabetes , MS, MD , Cancer or even need help from medical costs as a result from car/industrial accidents . If the bill were smaller and condenced to help with the greatest need/s , I think would have been better . If , and I stress , if this bill causes small business to cut payroll , large business to also cut jobs , it could make things worse ? If the care that the working middle class suffers at the expense of provideing for people who won't work , that is IMO , not fiar or right . As far as tax hikes for bombs , we have not raised taxes since Clinton in 92 , our taxe rates our much lower today than 30 years ago . France , they do have some great health care on many levels . France is at the moment , moving towards some of what looks like our policies , to pay for the HC in France [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html]France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com[/url].... [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447687/]The Health Care System Under French National Health Insurance: Lessons for Health Reform in the United States[/url]. I just hope/want the people who have worked their asses off for the past 20/30 years , to not have to sacrifice too much at the expense of lazy < and some people are > , not saying most . I also think many Americans , right or wrong do not have a ton of faith in Washington making good on promises ....we have been told for 40 years that spending more on ED/ Higher learning would cut the cost of education , costs have increased over 400 % since 1970 . We were also told that Tabacco legislation would lower HC costs , that also has not happened ......... maybe we get this right one day soon ..... we shall see ?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Daseal;678357]FD - I do believe that, one hundred percent. Part of healthcare is people having access to healthcare. We have good care in this country, but people having access to it is the issue. You saying that the World Health Organization is for 'everyone having healthcare'. No shit. The world health organization wants everyone to have health insurance and access to care?

The fact that you don't want everyone to have access to healthcare is more shocking. I love how people skirt the whole France issue that have a socialized setup that provides amazing healthcare to all of their residents. We're one of the very few developed nations without national healthcare coverage.


[URL="http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2610&query=TOC"]Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System | Health Care Reform Center[/URL]

Take a look at this, and tell me that we're #1. We're lagging, severely in a lot of areas. [URL="http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-healthcare.htm"]The U.S. has the best health care system in the world[/URL]

Instead of blindly saying "The US is better than everyone" for every single category. Try to look and see that we're lagging behind a lot of countries in a lot of areas. That's not to say this isn't a great country, but we need to constantly improve to stay on top.

I'm sick of seeing people bitch about making this country better. Is the system perfect, absolutely not. It has flaws. But it's interesting, we have no problem with tax hikes to pay for bombs that cost billions, yet taking care of our own people, people lose control. [SIZE=3]Holy crap, you might have to provide decent insurance for your employees?!?!?!?! If you can't afford it, shut your doors and go get a job for someone that can.[/SIZE]

This is ridiculous. People on this site are always talking about how the US needs to stop taking care of every other country and take care of ourselves. This is a step in the right direction. As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

We need much more reform than we have now. But I'll take this for a start.[/quote]

So now the dream of opening a business in the US is dependent on providing health care to all employees? Its easy to tell who has and has not run their own business.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;678381]So now the dream of opening a business in the US is dependent on providing health care to all employees? Its easy to tell who has and has not run their own business.[/quote]

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.[/quote]
Ok , but what if one in 5 business have to cut 1 job , how would millions losing a job be a benefit ? Nobody is saying do nothing , I would be fine with screening for illness/disease in our public schools/universities , proving care / help with cost for things like MS , MD , Type 2 Diabetes or car/industrial accidents . But to your point about FD or people on the left caring more is not true IMO, why don't people on the left go open business and hire people and provide HC if they care more ? . Why can't we have a HC fund where we could donate money , that would help poor with Med Bills ? You know we have Foundations and organizations that we are free to donate to . Maybe people on the left are more comfortable paying for things they want with other peoples earnings ? Getting everyone into a house in the 90's did us alot of good , right ? I with you on helping others , just not with unintended consequenses that we usually get .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.[/quote]

As a libertarian, I don't consider myself either left or right, but I can tell you the issue some people have with the "giving for the greater good" argument:

I have no problem with people who are willing to give their own money to people genuinely in need. But there is a problem when those on the left use the police powers of government to [I]force[/I] others to pay for things like health care in exchange for keeping the people who make those promises in political power.

It's easy to be compassionate when you're using other people's money.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.[/quote]

Yea, I pay myself first then what is ever left after I pay my bills is what I pay my employees. Some months they don't make very much but we have some really big months and I really get a big pay check and throw them a small bonus. Once when I felt really nice I let one of them have the day off so they could attend their fathers funeral. They must like this because they have all been working here for over 10 years.

The left wants to take from others to do what they call help out other people. The right knows that a hand up is better then a hand out. After years and years of these failing social programs that do just enough to keep people poor the left has not figured out the part of the helping hand up. Well the left running the country know this because they have made a living out of promising the poor they will get them more money for their votes.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to [B]give for the greater good of everyone else.[/B][/quote]

Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.

Re: Obama Care
 

Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?

"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits [I]is[/I] the greater good.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Daseal;678357]... As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit. [/quote]

But then you have to ask, what makes medical procedures so expensive that they cause bankruptcies?

I would argue malpractice lawsuits and government interference is what drives up the costs more than anything else. Take these points for instance:

-- You cannot purchase insurance policies across state lines, which would open the market up to the forces of competition. Why?

-- Various state mandates force insurance companies to offer non-essential coverage for things like hair transplant surgery, pregnancy, and alcohol and drug treatment coverage. Picking and choosing what specific coverage you'd like without government mandated items is illegal. Why? That does nothing but drive up the cost.

-- Employer provided coverage doesn't actually belong to you and personal ownership of those health policies is illegal, meaning you cannot take it with you if you leave that employer or you get fired. Again, WHY?

Re: Obama Care
 

Well I was speaking in general, wasn't trying to hide that fact. Tell me it's not a big part of what this debate is about. Not saying either side is more wrong or right, it is what it is.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.[/quote]

The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;678397]Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.[/quote]
Nice post GM. You are spot on IMO about initiative and self-reliance . Two examples , 1) in 2003 I guy blew through a parking lot , on to the highway and slammed me , pretty much destroying my car . We < Va. > a few years earlier had Gov. Gilmore ( R ) , reduce the car tax 70% , the result was I bought a newer $20,000 truck .Had we still had to pay the full tax rate , I would have bought a 5,000 truck , which the state would have collected less in taxes , and less fuel efficient . 2) with lowering of Capitol gains taxes < NG / Bush > I trade more , win for me , more taxes for uncle Sam .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;678399]Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?
[B]
"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits [I]is[/I] the greater good[/B].[/quote]

Ding ding ding!!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;678399]Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?

"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits [I]is[/I] the greater good.[/quote] I worded for FD , one day I showed up late , first he docked me pay , then he tried to make a cowboys jersey all day , when I said no , he hit me and stuff..... I'm so embarrassed :)

Re: Obama Care
 

[QUOTE="GMScud"]

Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.[/QUOTE]

I thought self concerned was less harsh than self centered, and really what I mean is not selfish, just more concerned about his/her own immediate situation.

Re: Obama Care
 

[QUOTE="JoeRedskin"]

The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.[/QUOTE]

Really not what I meant at all

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;678408]The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.[/quote]
Would the position of " the left "be .... If john gets an A , and Susan gets an F , that we should change Johns A to C and Susans F to C for the common good ? Maybe for the good of college football the NCAA should ask the SEC to stop playing in the BSC Chamionship so the Big Ten or Pac 10 can win one :) .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;678408]The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.[/quote]

No the right say's "F you" to stupid post like this. Funny how everytime the left uses the term (the greater good) they stick out their hands wanting everyone else money. Hey they do have organizations you can join to rais your own money to donate to who ever you want to help. Stop begging and start earing.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678413]I thought self concerned was less harsh than self centered, and really what I mean is not selfish, just more concerned about his/her own immediate situation.[/quote] That may be true for some , probably like a father who uses " tough love " when rasing his son , so he will be " better " prepared for adulthood , when some may see the father as less compassioante ?

Re: Obama Care
 

I'm beginning to think this is becoming a pointless thread. Just like in the real debate, those on the opposing side have dug in and won't budge, those that are for this reform keep attacking those that oppose it, and both side will shit on anyone who stands in the middle.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk;678385]Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.[/quote]

We are all free to do as we please so long as we're not breaking the law. If FD doesn't want to provide care for his employees that's perfectly fine. When his employees vote for a Socialist Marxist Tyrant who collects a 90% tax on his business income that's fine too. All battles are won and lost in the ballot box, conservatives and liberals need to stop their insipid whining and go win in the f*cking ballot box battles.

p.s. Don't worry conservatives, you don't have to do shit for anybody and I don't expect you to but I will be damned if I don't vote.