Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197207]Gosh Darn Religious cultists

[URL="https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-talks-prison-reform-pastors-191944189--politics.html"]Pastor praises Trump as 'pro-black' at prison reform event-Associated Press[/URL][/quote]



[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/07/05/trumps-racist-views-have-not-gone-unnoticed/?utm_term=.7f5f9af635cb[/url]


[url]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/[/url]


[url=http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/]Is Donald Trump a Racist? Here's What His Record Shows | Fortune[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1197208][url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/07/05/trumps-racist-views-have-not-gone-unnoticed/?utm_term=.7f5f9af635cb[/url]


[url]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-president-ta-nehisi-coates/537909/[/url]


[url=http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/]Is Donald Trump a Racist? Here's What His Record Shows | Fortune[/url][/quote]

[quote]"This is probably the most pro-active administration regarding urban America and the faith-based community in my lifetime," Scott told the group, adding, "This is probably going be ... the most pro-black president that we've had in our lifetime."[/quote]

If Trump can make inroads into the urban communities through faith based organizations, and make a difference in the inner cities, the Democratic party would crumble from within. You can push the media narrative all you want, fact is Trump supporters aren't by and large racist, and we want every US citizen to have a real chance to make his or her own life better by their own efforts in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr's dream and JFK's great speech "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". The Democratic party has left the inner cities in ruins based on years of destructive politics, and Trump as an outsider has a shot at reaching through the fog of politics and making real diferences in peoples lives.

But bash away young soldier of the left bash away.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Honest question,

Who is to blame for this situation:

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-marines-wife-being-deported-mexico-040712366.html[/url]

I agree it's terrible, but somethings don't add up. My ex-wife is German born, being married to me gave her an easy path from permanent resident to citizenship.

The article says all the appeals were exhausted, so it seems like something else is at play. The main reason in the article is this:
[QUOTE]Alejandra petitioned to become a citizen in 2001, but was rejected because she was accused of making a false statement at the border when she sought asylum in 1998, said her attorney, Richard Maney. He said she was asked about her citizenship and told authorities she had been a student in Memphis, Tennessee for a short time, so border officials apparently thought she was falsely claiming to be an American citizen.[/QUOTE]

Further, apparently Congress tried to exempt her - per the Congressman quoted, and it failed, they don't say how Congress attempted to resolve it, so maybe it was a tack on to a bill that was doomed to fail but you don't really know.

Add the fact that her status was known since 2013, (and she clearly knew it long before)

So again, I think this woman - based of this one article - should have a path to citizenship, but it seems like there must be more in play doesn't it?

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197210]If Trump can make inroads into the urban communities through faith based organizations, and make a difference in the inner cities, the Democratic party would crumble from within. You can push the media narrative all you want, fact is Trump supporters aren't by and large racist, and we want every US citizen to have a real chance to make his or her own life better by their own efforts in the spirit of Martin Luther King Jr's dream and JFK's great speech "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". The Democratic party has left the inner cities in ruins based on years of destructive politics, and Trump as an outsider has a shot at reaching through the fog of politics and making real diferences in peoples lives.

But bash away young soldier of the left bash away.[/quote]
LOL, "we",so now you do speak for all the trump supporters? LOL okay.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197273]Honest question,

Who is to blame for this situation:

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-marines-wife-being-deported-mexico-040712366.html[/url]

I agree it's terrible, but somethings don't add up. My ex-wife is German born, being married to me gave her an easy path from permanent resident to citizenship.

The article says all the appeals were exhausted, so it seems like something else is at play. The main reason in the article is this:


Further, apparently Congress tried to exempt her - per the Congressman quoted, and it failed, they don't say how Congress attempted to resolve it, so maybe it was a tack on to a bill that was doomed to fail but you don't really know.

Add the fact that her status was known since 2013, (and she clearly knew it long before)

So again, I think this woman - based of this one article - should have a path to citizenship, but it seems like there must be more in play doesn't it?[/quote]

trump does not.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1197277]LOL, "we",so now you do speak for all the trump supporters? LOL okay.[/quote]

no i'm just tired of trying to dialogue with you right now.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[url]https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-war-deficit-losing-2018-8?r=UK&IR=T[/url]



President Donald Trump is losing his trade wars — at least according to his own measure of success.

The president repeatedly mentions the US trade deficit when talking about trade fights with China , the European Union , and Canada . In negotiations with China, Trump's major request was for a massive reduction in the bilateral trade deficit.

But based on the most recent trade numbers released Friday, it appears Trump is falling short in his main goal for trade battles: The US trade deficit is actually heading in the opposite direction.

The US trade deficit increased in the month of June, according to the US Census Bureau, to $46.3 billion from $43.2 billion in May. Additionally, the trade deficit for 2018 continues to outpace the shortfall in 2017.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Winning

[url]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/08/05/both_the_budget_and_economy_are_winning_137723.amp.html[/url]

[url]https://caps.gov.harvard.edu/news/caps-harris-poll-immigration-and-foreign-policy[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

but , but we were talking about adoption!!!!!!!


[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-says-son-apos-125640737.html[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197318]Winning

[url]https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/08/05/both_the_budget_and_economy_are_winning_137723.amp.html[/url]

[url]https://caps.gov.harvard.edu/news/caps-harris-poll-immigration-and-foreign-policy[/url][/quote]

.......thanks Obama.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1197327].......thanks Obama.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]In President Obama’s last year in office, 2016, CBO’s*January report*(page 108),*March report*(page 13) and*August report*(page 68) reported a combined loss in ten-year revenue estimates of*$1,089 billion.* Overall, in the three years after President Obama’s 2013 tax hike -- purportedly to address the deficit, CBO’s twelve revisions report slower growth triggering a staggering $3.1 trillion in ten-year revenue losses through the end of his term.[/QUOTE]
You thank him

I will thank Trump
[QUOTE]The CBO has issued two budget and economic reports after President Trump took office in January 2017.* In CBO’s June 2017 “Updated to the Budget and Economic Outlook”, page 19 reports that ten-year revenue estimates rose by $195 billion for “economic reasons”.** Then in CBO’s April 2018*“Budget and Economic Outlook”,*page 94 reports that ten-year revenue estimates rose by $1,088 billion for “economic reasons”.* This is the largest jump in revenues for economic reasons ever reported by CBO, and results from, in CBO’s words, their “current projections suggest[ing] a stronger economic outlook than those that the agency published in June 2017”.[/QUOTE]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197329]You thank him

I will thank Trump[/quote]

You know, if you deregulated everything, the economy would grow exponentially. It's all the pesky treehuggers that insist on regulation.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1197330]You know, if you deregulated everything, the economy would grow exponentially. It's all the pesky treehuggers that insist on regulation.[/QUOTE]A little DDT and a few more 2nd gen nuclear plants in the right places would solve that. ;)

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1197330]You know, if you deregulated everything, the economy would grow exponentially. It's all the pesky treehuggers that insist on regulation.[/QUOTE]Serious question mooby,

Do you agree with G1 that this economy's performance is to Obama's credit and Trump's economic policies have had no or minimal impact.

Or do you give Trumps policies credit for the numbers even if you disagree with the policies or think they are shortsighted

Or some other answer outside of those two.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Obama built the foundation of the engine and Trump has removed the governor and hit the gas. Whether that’s a good thing for the long run or not we’ll see. Deregulation tends to lead to problems at some point a la the subprime mortgage crisis.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1197333]Obama built the foundation of the engine and Trump has removed the governor and hit the gas. Whether that’s a good thing for the long run or not we’ll see. Deregulation tends to lead to problems at some point a la the subprime mortgage crisis.[/QUOTE]Ok so Trump owns the growth and expansive economy at this point. And will need to own a collapse if it occurs during the rest of his term(s).

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1197334]Ok so Trump owns the growth and expansive economy at this point. And will need to own a collapse if it occurs during the rest of his term(s).[/QUOTE]


Absolutely

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197332]Serious question mooby,

Do you agree with G1 that this economy's performance is to Obama's credit and Trump's economic policies have had no or minimal impact.

Or do you give Trumps policies credit for the numbers even if you disagree with the policies or think they are shortsighted

Or some other answer outside of those two.[/quote]

I give Obama credit for digging us out of the post-GWB hole and setting the foundation, and I give Trump credit for continuing that. Where do I draw the line between Obama credit and Trump credit? I don't, because it's a dumb idea to try.

S/N while Trump deserves credit for continuing the growth of the economy, I wonder much more about the impact it's going to leave on the earth long after you and the baby boomer generation is gone. Aka, when my generation is your age and our kids will be the ones paying the price. Trade policies and the like can be changed once Trump is gone, if the current path we're on keeps trending the climate will only get worse from here.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1197339]I give Obama credit for digging us out of the post-GWB hole and setting the foundation, and I give Trump credit for continuing that. Where do I draw the line between Obama credit and Trump credit? I don't, because it's a dumb idea to try. [/quote]
You say it's a dumb idea to try, but do you believe the growth that is occuring in GDP would have occurred under a continuation of Pres Obama's policies in a HRC presidency, or do you believe that the policies of Pres Trump created the regulatory and tax environment for higher growth.

[quote] S/N while Trump deserves credit for continuing the growth of the economy, I wonder much more about the impact it's going to leave on the earth long after you and the baby boomer generation is gone. Aka, when my generation is your age and our kids will be the ones paying the price. Trade policies and the like can be changed once Trump is gone, if the current path we're on keeps trending the climate will only get worse from here.[/quote]

I am not a climate change denier, but I am most definitely a denier of policy driven on fears. We have lived for 50 years since they predicted we would run out of oil in 40 years. In 1000AD, the world's food supply was going to run out. etc etc.

The biggest thing global doomsayers ignore is human resourcefulness. Climate change is by its nature a slow process, even the doomsayer videos show changes occurring over 50-200 year timespans. Fact is, I'm far more worried about the political viability of the US constitution over the next 100 years and the country our kids and grandkids will live in, than sea levels shrinking the total land mass by some percentage. We may have to have different constructions, and we may have to find new ways to deal with disease, but humans have changed and survived in the harshest, to the softest climates. We are looking at populating a barren planet of Mars. We aren't recreating Venus, Mars, or Jupiter type environments, and with every leap in technology and creativity, we get closer to being more planet friendly, and as that technology spreads to places like India and China we have a better chance of saving the planet then any false security that accords like the Paris accord presented.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

I don't have to continue to talk about the Obama recovery, but its well documented that the bi partisan efforts began before he took office and continued into it. Also the fact my aunt & uncle lost everything, my father was forced into retirement, and several family and friends had to relocate across the country...ALL occurring 4-5 years into the supposed recovery....clearly it wasn't as great as many proclaim.

Moving on....some good economic numbers for the most under privileged groups:

Unemployment for minorities has fallen to historical lows as the jobs recovery has extended into a ninth year. The recovery has also [B]benefited other groups who typically are at the margins of the economy[/B]. For example, [B]jobless rates for high school dropouts also hit a record low in July.[/B]

good stuff...like the president has stated, his economic policies would impact EVERYONE.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

Good thing he fixed that 30% unemployment number

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=MTK;1197345]Good thing he fixed that 30% unemployment number[/quote]

:laughing2

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1197343]I don't have to continue to talk about the Obama recovery, but its well documented that the bi partisan efforts began before he took office and continued into it. Also the fact my aunt & uncle lost everything, my father was forced into retirement, and several family and friends had to relocate across the country...ALL occurring 4-5 years into the supposed recovery....clearly it wasn't as great as many proclaim.

Moving on....some good economic numbers for the most under privileged groups:

Unemployment for minorities has fallen to historical lows as the jobs recovery has extended into a ninth year. The recovery has also [B]benefited other groups who typically are at the margins of the economy[/B]. For example, [B]jobless rates for high school dropouts also hit a record low in July.[/B]

good stuff...like the president has stated, his economic policies would impact EVERYONE.[/quote]

Thanks Obama .:D

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197342]You say it's a dumb idea to try, but do you believe the growth that is occuring in GDP would have occurred under a continuation of Pres Obama's policies in a HRC presidency, or do you believe that the policies of Pres Trump created the regulatory and tax environment for higher growth.
[/quote]

I do believe the growth would've continued, but to the extent it has under Trump? Doubtful. Trump's entire economic policy seems to be "is profit being held back by gov't policy? Yes? Then eliminate the policy." There hasn't been a single regulation, bill, anything that Obama signed where he said "hey you know what, this is a good move, let's leave that alone."

[quote]
I am not a climate change denier, but I am most definitely a denier of policy driven on fears. We have lived for 50 years since they predicted we would run out of oil in 40 years. In 1000AD, the world's food supply was going to run out. etc etc.

The biggest thing global doomsayers ignore is human resourcefulness. Climate change is by its nature a slow process, even the doomsayer videos show changes occurring over 50-200 year timespans. Fact is, I'm far more worried about the political viability of the US constitution over the next 100 years and the country our kids and grandkids will live in, than sea levels shrinking the total land mass by some percentage. We may have to have different constructions, and we may have to find new ways to deal with disease, but humans have changed and survived in the harshest, to the softest climates. We are looking at populating a barren planet of Mars. We aren't recreating Venus, Mars, or Jupiter type environments, and with every leap in technology and creativity, we get closer to being more planet friendly, and as that technology spreads to places like India and China we have a better chance of saving the planet then any false security that accords like the Paris accord presented.[/quote]

I don't have a lot of time, so I'll leave it at this. When 97% of scientists that aren't funded by corporations who have a vested interest in denying climate change agree that this is a man made problem, it's good enough for me. When we experience record setting temperatures every year and natural disasters that seem to get worse and worse every year, that's good enough for me. I know I know, they call it global warming yet somehow it still snows every winter.

50 years from now you'll be dead, and I'll be in my twilight years, and your grandkids/my kids will be footing the bill for the "profit > everything" lifestyle of today. Will they come up with a solution? Absolutely. Will it fix everything? Very much left to be desired.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

One more thing. I thought this was an interesting angle on the incoming capital gains tax rewrite that Trump is sure to put out within the next couple months.

Cred, most of this goes over my head, but the gist of it seems to be "if the basis is adjusted for inflation, the 1% stand to save a lot of money when they sell property".

Can I get your thoughts on this?

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/esist/comments/9531i0/trump_stands_to_personally_loot_billions_of/[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1197358]I do believe the growth would've continued, but to the extent it has under Trump? Doubtful. Trump's entire economic policy seems to be "is profit being held back by gov't policy? Yes? Then eliminate the policy." There hasn't been a single regulation, bill, anything that Obama signed where he said "hey you know what, this is a good move, let's leave that alone."



I don't have a lot of time, so I'll leave it at this. When 97% of scientists that aren't funded by corporations who have a vested interest in denying climate change agree that this is a man made problem, it's good enough for me. When we experience record setting temperatures every year and natural disasters that seem to get worse and worse every year, that's good enough for me. I know I know, they call it global warming yet somehow it still snows every winter.

50 years from now you'll be dead, and I'll be in my twilight years, and your grandkids/my kids will be footing the bill for the "profit > everything" lifestyle of today. Will they come up with a solution? Absolutely. Will it fix everything? Very much left to be desired.[/quote]

Like I said, it's far more likely that the US Constitution is dead in 100 years, then an unsustainable planet exists. I don't argue the climate changes, I argue that the extent the US or any individual person (ie epa fuel standards from 25 to 30) are going to tip the scale is far overblown. We run computer simulations to the Nth degree but still can't tell if a hurricane is going to go to the east or west of the Florida panhandle. Maybe if the old geezers on the western coast had driven more Priuses the hurricane would have stayed East (not).

If environmentalists really wanted to move off of carbon, we would be have better gen 4 nuclear plants on a fast pace for approval, but fact is they have hit upon an ultimate ponzi scheme (any good ponzi scheme has facts in it). How can you argue with some who claims the end of the world is near (unless he/she claims it's based on religious beliefs of course)>

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197360]Like I said, it's far more likely that the US Constitution is dead in 100 years, then an unsustainable planet exists. I don't argue the climate changes, I argue that the extent the US or any individual person (ie epa fuel standards from 25 to 30) are going to tip the scale is far overblown. We run computer simulations to the Nth degree but still can't tell if a hurricane is going to go to the east or west of the Florida panhandle. Maybe if the old geezers on the western coast had driven more Priuses the hurricane would have stayed East (not).

If environmentalists really wanted to move off of carbon, we would be have better gen 4 nuclear plants on a fast pace for approval, but fact is they have hit upon an ultimate ponzi scheme (any good ponzi scheme has facts in it). How can you argue with some who claims the end of the world is near (unless he/she claims it's based on religious beliefs of course)>[/quote]



I realize you are heads above me in the academic world and this has nothing seriously to do with politics but with all due respect ,what you just posted is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Your statement borders on ignorant.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1197361]I realize you are heads above me in the academic world and this has nothing seriously to do with politics but with all due respect ,what you just posted is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Your statement borders on ignorant.[/quote]

[URL="https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions"]EPA percentages of US Greenhouse Emissions 2016[/URL]
Transportation is 28% of the total 5.31 Gigatons or 1.48 Gigatons

[URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10ZkDgDDOHaZPAKkN_JWVz1d56DDgLVnUOWnSdNXqTl0/edit#gid=0"]2016 Total world[/URL] 36.18 Gigatons
China was at 10.15 gigatons
The US was at 5.31 GT
The rest of the world was at 19.17

In 2006 long before the world saving regulations of the Obama era the US emissions in total were 6.05 or a whopping .74 GT more. of which at 28% is .20GT or 2 GT over 10 years, or 20GT over 100 years The equivalent of 2 years of the current China output, or 1 year of the rest of the worlds current total GT output.

Meanwhile in those same 10 years, China has gone from 6.52 to 10.15GT an increase nearly equivalent to the amount that the US puts out on an annual basis minus the transportation portion.

Just as importantly, the US and other free market economies are making natural strides to more efficient energy markets and less dependence on dirty energies.

The fear mongering over Trump ecological policy reaches the same unfounded hysteria levels as the nuclear warmongering of NK in the first year of the Trump adminstration.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1197359]One more thing. I thought this was an interesting angle on the incoming capital gains tax rewrite that Trump is sure to put out within the next couple months.

Cred, most of this goes over my head, but the gist of it seems to be "if the basis is adjusted for inflation, the 1% stand to save a lot of money when they sell property".

Can I get your thoughts on this?

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/esist/comments/9531i0/trump_stands_to_personally_loot_billions_of/[/url][/quote]

I read it. I doubt it passes through the way it's proposed in the reddit. I still put it on the Congress to do their job, which is to write the laws that are not graft or pure money grabs. The spin that Trump personally stands to gain is as true as the spin that any small business could gain from that as well. I know the company I work for owns the building we use, and have for the last 20 years. I imagine the owner, who is wealthy but not Trump or Gates wealthy, would benefit from that change, which because of who he is I think it would see all of us employees benefit.

The other thing is that I think most governmental accounting at this point ties everything to inflation, so the idea isn't outside of government norms. (I don't know how much governmental accounting is tied to inflation, and that could be a wrong statement)

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197364][URL="https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions"]EPA percentages of US Greenhouse Emissions 2016[/URL]
Transportation is 28% of the total 5.31 Gigatons or 1.48 Gigatons

[URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10ZkDgDDOHaZPAKkN_JWVz1d56DDgLVnUOWnSdNXqTl0/edit#gid=0"]2016 Total world[/URL] 36.18 Gigatons
China was at 10.15 gigatons
The US was at 5.31 GT
The rest of the world was at 19.17

In 2006 long before the world saving regulations of the Obama era the US emissions in total were 6.05 or a whopping .74 GT more. of which at 28% is .20GT or 2 GT over 10 years, or 20GT over 100 years The equivalent of 2 years of the current China output, or 1 year of the rest of the worlds current total GT output.

Meanwhile in those same 10 years, China has gone from 6.52 to 10.15GT an increase nearly equivalent to the amount that the US puts out on an annual basis minus the transportation portion.

Just as importantly, the US and other free market economies are making natural strides to more efficient energy markets and less dependence on dirty energies.

The fear mongering over Trump ecological policy reaches the same unfounded hysteria levels as the nuclear warmongering of NK in the first year of the Trump adminstration.[/quote]

Seriously your defense is becuase the rest of the World isn't doing it..........we shouldn't do it either????

Pleas explain , what are "natural strides" that people are making becuase the want to not have to.

[url]https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/20/lying-car-companies-rather-poison-emissions-build-cleaner-cars/[/url]

[url]https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772[/url]

[url]http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/11/03/your-car-list-vehicles-lied-about-their-greenhouse-gas-emissions[/url]

[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=los+angeles+smog+1970s&sa=X&biw=1396&bih=662&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=0F92yQ6wiW4gSM%253A%252C0uR3-kN5UYi27M%252C_&usg=AFrqEzdgNTmteaNcDZQsRVRIZS0BHmOOww&ved=2ahUKEwi7gbSv2NrcAhXndN8KHfpCDK4Q9QEwA3oECAEQCg#imgrc=_[/url]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

We should be listening to the [B][U]science[/U][/B]. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

[URL="https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xbdnk/planet-at-risk-of-heading-towards-hothouse-earth?utm_campaign=sharebutton&utm_source=reddit.com"]Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State[/URL]

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=Giantone;1197370]Seriously your defense is becuase the rest of the World isn't doing it..........we shouldn't do it either????[/quote]

No, my point is that if the world as a whole is pouring 36GT into the atmosphere, a policy change affecting less than 0.2GT isn't going to be what dooms or saves our grandkids. Saying that it will is a narrative put forth to enact more invasive regulations.

[quote]
Pleas explain , what are "natural strides" that people are making becuase the want to not have to.
...[/quote]

See this is the way the free market works, as resources have scarcity they cost more. As resources are made available, scientists and other evil big businesses look for the best way to make money. IF the concept of saving the world is marketable, and it is, companies will move to improve their positions in those markets. It won't happen as quickly as brute force govt regulations, but as I said, the US regulations aren't going to significantly change the global situation, at least not at the cost of individual freedom.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=MTK;1197379]We should be listening to the [B][U]science[/U][/B]. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

[URL="https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xbdnk/planet-at-risk-of-heading-towards-hothouse-earth?utm_campaign=sharebutton&utm_source=reddit.com"]Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State[/URL][/quote]

From your article
[quote]Cutting carbon emissions to limit climate change to 2 degrees C, as proposed in the Paris climate agreement, won’t be enough to avoid a “Hothouse Earth,” said co-author Johan Rockström, executive director of Stockholm Resilience Centre. [/quote]

[quote]The reality is that global temperatures aren’t driven by human emissions of carbon alone, says Rockström—natural systems such as forests and oceans also play a major role.[/quote]

[quote]A lot of this is already happening without leadership from national governments. Individuals, communities, and companies understand these are the things we need to do and we are starting to limit our impacts on the Earth, Richardson told Motherboard.[/quote]

I can agree with "SCIENCE" and still say that invasive government regulations are not the way to achieve anything, even in global climate change debates.

But liberals, in my opinion, must demonize their opponents and portray their way as the only way, because their policies when enacted have repeatedly and consistently failed to achieve most of their supposed goals.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197381]From your article






I can agree with "SCIENCE" and still say that invasive [B]government regulations are not the way to achieve anything[/B], even in global climate change debates.

But liberals, in my opinion, must demonize their opponents and portray their way as the only way, because their policies when enacted have repeatedly and consistently failed to achieve most of their supposed goals.[/quote]

I don't know, I tend to like the idea of protecting and preserving national parklands, stopping illegal dumping into our oceans and rivers, reducing air pollution, and protecting endangered species, to name a few. I'd say policies enacted for all of the above are important and have achieved something.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=MTK;1197385]I don't know, I tend to like the idea of protecting and preserving national parklands, stopping illegal dumping into our oceans and rivers, reducing air pollution, and protecting endangered species, to name a few. I'd say policies enacted for all of the above are important and have achieved something.[/quote]

you didn't highlight the word invasive.

It's like the old joke, would a lady have sex with me for $1 million, she says sure. What about $20, she says what am i a whore??

I think, a super majority of us citizens would agree that all those things are important, the difference comes down to where the line ought to be drawn. But often instead of rational debate, it becomes a - you want to destroy the earth and all that is within it narrative.

NO ONE WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD (except the guy from GI Joe Retaliation)

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1197386]you didn't highlight the word invasive.

It's like the old joke, would a lady have sex with me for $1 million, she says sure. What about $20, she says what am i a whore??

I think, a super majority of us citizens would agree that all those things are important, the difference comes down to where the line ought to be drawn. But often instead of rational debate, it becomes a - you want to destroy the earth and all that is within it narrative.

NO ONE WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD (except the guy from GI Joe Retaliation)[/quote]

I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1197393]I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.[/quote]

And that's where sane discussions ought to be able to had about regulatory oversight. But again, that's not the discussion that is usually had by us. Even in this thread mentioning cancelling of the fuel standards by Trump, it is greeted with a cry that the grandchildren will not have a safe world, or we must trust the scientists, even when reasonable (imo) stats show that those standards have a near negligible effect on the world wide output (.2Gt vs 36Gt or 1/2 of 1% of the total).

I don't know the solution, because honestly when you are greeted by the world will die, or your just ignorant, comments it's hard to try to continue the debate about where reasonable standards should be.

IF we could have zero emissions and not affect liberty, economic growth, and individual choice, I would be all for it, but life IS tradeoffs. Where does one end and the other begin. If you only look at SCIENCE, you miss the need for individual and corporate growth. If you only look at corporate growth you miss the need for SCIENCE.

(by the way, the SCIENCE is a nod to Penguins of Madagascar, and Kowalski in particular)

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=mooby;1197393]I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.[/quote]

On the other hand, whole segments of the economy are being created by market forces based on the concerns over global climate. When the Prius was introduced the following happened:
[quote]Incredibly, first-month orders defied all projections and sales reached 180,000 (against a target of 10,000) while waiting lists stretched to seven months.[/quote]
and firms are looking more and more at that segment.
[url]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224549709595430?src=recsys[/url]

To G1's reply, in a free market there is always a cling to the "old ways" but as the new becomes the norm they either die or progress. No one is saying that the corporations should be allowed outside the laws on the books

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

This is absurd ,please defend this to me?

[url]https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/world/plastic-great-pacific-garbage-patch-intl/index.html[/url]


[url]https://phys.org/news/2018-03-pacific-plastic-dump-larger.html[/url]





And lets not forget the Drinking water in Flint Mi.


[url]https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2018/04/officials-say-flints-water-is-safe-residents-say-its-not-scientists-say-its-complicated/[/url]


[url]https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/03/nothing-to-worry-about-the-water-is-fine-how-flint-michigan-poisoned-its-people[/url]




Yes dumping the EPA is good for business's and trump wants that at any cost including risking the lives of all Americans but hey fuckem....we're winning!

Re: When is Enough ,Enough?
 

[quote=MTK;1197379]We should be listening to the [B][U]science[/U][/B]. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

[URL="https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xbdnk/planet-at-risk-of-heading-towards-hothouse-earth?utm_campaign=sharebutton&utm_source=reddit.com"]Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State[/URL][/quote]

MTK , I agree with you but the trump cult will never admit defeat on any issue no matter how many people die becuase of it.