[QUOTE=offiss]How can they put 8 men in the box if their double covering 2 wr's, as well we alway's have either a TE, or back, running a pattern, so I do not believe that can be correct, as for Brunell's number's in the cowboy game, he made 1 nice throw for a TD, and guess what, he scrabled to do it, but it was defiently a nice play on his part, but even a broken clock is right twice a day, as far as the bulk of his yardage, it came on 2 throw's to Gardner, jump ball's, throwing a ball up for grab's is not a high percentage pass, and dangerous, those were desperation throw's, point out a nice deep ball he has thrown, if he threw that pass a little further last game, he could have hit coles for a TD instead of an INT to Deion, as it was he had coles turning the wrong way, Ramsey completed as many deep ball's in 2 quarter's, as brunell has in 4 1/2 games.

I agree that Gibb's is partly resposible for the passing problem's, he is the one starting Brunell.[/QUOTE]

Brunell did everything that he was supposed to do to put us in a position to win the Dallas game. I don't care whether it was rushed or not, the reality is that he had over 15 first downs and that came from passes to Cooley, Coles and Gardner. Brunell threw the long pass when he had to and still the question is why is Gibbs sticking with him. In the Cleveland game Coles caught 122yds in passes so there is clearly a problem that is not Brunell's fault. Remember no fumbles or INT's in either game.

Ramsey's INT and sack percentage were much higher than Brunell's at this point last year. I've looked at the pass that Brunell threw to Coles and I'll give credit where credit is unfortunately due. Deion Sanders made an exceptional play. The ball was perfectly thrown to Coles. Unfortunately Sanders came over to assist the other CB who Coles had beaten.

Gmanc711:

Since "5.6 yards per pass is pretty much the only number [you] need to see", I'm sure you already know that Patrick Ramsey's career number is 6.6 yards per attempt. Before you get overly excited about that number, let me give you a yardstick.

Gus Frerotte averages 7.1 yards per attempt.

So, if that number is "pretty much all you need to see", I'm sure you will enlighten all of us as to the glory that Gus could lead this team to if he were to materialize here.

And I'm sure you already know that Mark Brunell's career average gain per attempt is 7.0 yards per attempt - which is 6% higher than Ramsey's - and that is "pretty much all you need to see". Right?

ramsey's int % may have been slightly higher, but his turnover % was way way lower... brunell fumbles inside the 30 A LOT...

[quote=SUNRA]If your'e gonna mention every game that Brunell has played in this year and say he hasn't been able to throw the ball down field, then what in the hell did he do against Dallas? I mean his connection to Gardner was exceptional and he deserved the credit for avoiding the sack and throwing the last TD to Gardner. See it's easy to point the finger at the QB when the passing game isn't successful. Gibbs has admitted that he is partly responsible with that problem. Gibbs is sending only two receivers on routes that make it easy to double cover them. He needs to get back to stacking four WR's and letting them three run short routes while one runs the long route. This is what he did against Dallas and it worked. Another point about Brunell is his leadership. The no huddle offense works but Brunell needs to be able to get into a rhythm and keep the defense off balance. This also worked against Dallas. No INTS against the CowBitches and 325 yds. in passing is not bad, so the blame still goes all around.[/quote]

you keep pointing out the same 3-4 plays.... 4 good plays in 5 games IS NOT ENOUGH, not even close... let's talk about the 3427823 times he threw it away... the open receivers he's constantly bypassed for a 4 yarder... the way that he's not scoring (.8 TDs per game, and he's given up 21 points himself)

[quote=SUNRA]I've looked at the pass that Brunell threw to Coles and I'll give credit where credit is unfortunately due. Deion Sanders made an exceptional play. The ball was perfectly thrown to Coles. Unfortunately Sanders came over to assist the other CB who Coles had beaten.[/quote]

no, coles had them both beat and brunell decided to throw to sanders instead... that was a bad play by brunell, not a good play by deion...

Perfectly thrown to Coles? Are you serious? He had to slow down and try to turn around to play defense.

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]And I'm sure you already know that Mark Brunell's career average gain per attempt is 7.0 yards per attempt - which is 6% higher than Ramsey's - and that is "pretty much all you need to see". Right?[/QUOTE]
and you realize as he gets older his arm is only going to get worse, right?

I don't see gibbs changing QBs right now, he tends to stick by them "till the bitter lemon-sucking end" but defending brunell's play with anything besides "everyone else sucks too" is a bit hard to swallow, cause his play has been nothing short of wretched... some people here keep pointing to the same 3-4 plays... guess what? 3 good plays in 5 games IS NOT ENOUGH... that's like me asking you to look at how awesome ramsey is for his TD throw and to just ignore his 3 ints... sounds silly doesn't it?

and i can''t see this thing with sultan... i think 4 other RBs on our roster would have to be [b]DEAD[/b] before he even had a shot at playing time... he couldn't light up 3rd stringers, he's slower and smaller than portis, and his hands aren't as good... which obviously makes him the best back in the league it seems...

The pass to Coles wasn't a bad pass, it was well placed, but it wasn't a wise decision considering the coverage, Coles wasn't open.

Hopefull for a turnaround
 

Hopefully Brunell will be able to defend his own actions this week, if not, we have someone with a tremendous amount of potential lined up to take his place. I am sure that Gibbs is well aware of that! :)

[QUOTE=That Guy]ramsey's int % may have been slightly higher, but his turnover % was way way lower... brunell fumbles inside the 30 A LOT...



you keep pointing out the same 3-4 plays.... 4 good plays in 5 games IS NOT ENOUGH, not even close... let's talk about the 3427823 times he threw it away... the open receivers he's constantly bypassed for a 4 yarder... the way that he's not scoring (.8 TDs per game, and he's given up 21 points himself)



no, coles had them both beat and brunell decided to throw to sanders instead... that was a bad play by brunell, not a good play by deion...[/QUOTE]

I'll say it again. 2 INTS in 5 games. 3 fumbles in 5 games. I'll take a ball thrown out of bounds over a sack or a forced pass like Ramsey has made a career of . Ramsey has thrown more INTs in one game than Brunell in 5 games. But I know, he had the pressure on him to dig us out of a hole that Brunell put us in. Well I'm here to tell you Ramsey won't be able to dig us out of a four game losing streak either.

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Gmanc711:

Since "5.6 yards per pass is pretty much the only number [you] need to see", I'm sure you already know that Patrick Ramsey's career number is 6.6 yards per attempt. Before you get overly excited about that number, let me give you a yardstick.

Gus Frerotte averages 7.1 yards per attempt.

So, if that number is "pretty much all you need to see", I'm sure you will enlighten all of us as to the glory that Gus could lead this team to if he were to materialize here.

And I'm sure you already know that Mark Brunell's career average gain per attempt is 7.0 yards per attempt - which is 6% higher than Ramsey's - and that is "pretty much all you need to see". Right?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, its pretty much still all I need to see. I watch the Redskins every week and I know exactly what that number means. Its the very indication of why Brunell and our offense as a whole, is having trouble. Because we are only throwing it 5 yards per pass. Ramseys numbers or Ferrottes number mean nothing to me, because I have watched them and know that they do take shots down the feild. Brunells arm is getting weak, our offense sucks, we need a change. If we had a crappy defense, I really wouldnt even care this much, but I'm so p*ssed that we are wasting this defense. We need a change on offense, weather its playcalling, quarterback , I dont care. I personally feel that change should be at quarterback, but thats just me.

Gmanc711:

Let me try one more time. Yards per attempt is a statistic but it is not "all anyone needs to see".

Patrick Ramsey's yards per attempt for his career is 6.61

Donovan McNabb's yards per attempt for his career is 6.28.

Vinny Testaverde's yards per attempt for his career is 6.92.

Tom Brady's yards per pass attempt for his career is 6.74.

If that is all anyone needs to see, then the Eagles would be thrilled to trade McNabb for Ramsey even-up. You can't believe that.

If that is all anyone needs to see, then Ramsey for Testaverde would be a great way to screw over the Cowboys. Do you like that proposed trade?

The difference between Tom Brady and Patrick Ramsey is less than 5 inches per pass attempt. If that is all anyone needs to see, would you say that Ramsey is about 5 inches away from two Super Bowl MVP Awards? He's not - yet!

By the way, Tom Brady has been pretty successful in his three and a quarter seasons so far. (I'm not counting 2000 where he got into only one game and threw only 3 passes.) In those three and a quarter years, he has completed only 19 passes of more than 40 yards; that comes to about one every eleven quarters of football. My point is that you can be pretty efficient and effective as a QB throwing a lot of short stuff as long as you complete a lot of them; you don't have to throw it downfield all the time. What you need to be successful is a complete team around you. Tom Brady has that; Ramsey/Brunell/Hasselbeck/Hamden/Whomever does not have that in Washington just now. There's more to it that yards per pass attempt and frustration with the play calling that does not have enough fly patterns to suit your preferences.

So, my point is that there is MORE to see and more to observe and more to analyze than yards per passing attempt - unless of course the number is ZERO and then you would indeed have all the info you needed to see.

[quote=SUNRA]I'll say it again. 2 INTS in 5 games. 3 fumbles in 5 games. I'll take a ball thrown out of bounds over a sack or a forced pass like Ramsey has made a career of . Ramsey has thrown more INTs in one game than Brunell in 5 games. But I know, he had the pressure on him to dig us out of a hole that Brunell put us in. Well I'm here to tell you Ramsey won't be able to dig us out of a four game losing streak either.[/quote]

brunell cost us 21 points, ramsey cost 0... brunell has been sacked a bunch this year if you forgot ;)

i'll take a shot over throwing the ball away on 3rd and 1 any day, its not working. I'm here to tell YOU not to be functionally fixated on 3 plays and look at the entire performance. BRUNELL IS SUCKING, [b]HARD[/b].

ramsey throws more TDs than INTs and has way less fumbles returned for touchdowns (0). Brunell at this point has given up more points than he's scored... ramsey is +7. If you want to judge ramsey, give him an entire week with the first string and an entire game where he doesn't start 14 points behind with an abandoned running game.

I think it’s important to look beyond just the yards per attempt (YPA). Remember in the Bucs game, Brunell threw a lot of passes in the flat to Coles that were basically the same as a running play. A more telling statistic-which I don’t have-is yards after catch (YAC). If Brunell places the ball where the receiver doesn’t have to break his stride and he does it often enough, it increases the efficiency of the offense no matter where the ball is caught. Unfortunately, we’ve seen more often than not that a lot of Brunell’s passes over the middle, particularly to Coles, have been overthrown and that’s forced Coles to break his stride and it’s hurt the offense.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I'll say it again. 2 INTS in 5 games. 3 fumbles in 5 games. I'll take a ball thrown out of bounds over a sack or a forced pass like Ramsey has made a career of . Ramsey has thrown more INTs in one game than Brunell in 5 games. But I know, he had the pressure on him to dig us out of a hole that Brunell put us in. Well I'm here to tell you Ramsey won't be able to dig us out of a four game losing streak either.[/QUOTE]


If Brunell tried to make a play he may have a few INT's, but he doesn't, half the guy's on this board, could take a snap from center, drop back and throw it away if there's not a blown coverage 5yd's over the line of scrimmage, Ramsey moves the ball, he will also limit his mistakes as he learn's, further more you keep comparing his stat's under SS, not fair, how many times did he have a chance to look down field, very rare, most of the time he was lucky to set himself to throw, I will guarentee you Ramsey will succeed under Gibb's if given a fair shot, Brunell is a veteran, what's the hold up. Right now we are not going to run the ball until we start proving that we can throw it, Ramsey will do that, and yes I think he's capable of digging us out of this hole, the one the Brunell has put us in, Remember regardless of the rest of the team, he has served up 3 TD's in 3 different games, 2 of which probably cost us the game.

Sunra, with your logic Brett Favre would have never made it in this league, the guy took more chances, and through more INT's when he started out than most QB's early in their carreer's, yet he turned out to be a fairly decent QB, wouldn't you say.

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]Gmanc711:

Let me try one more time. Yards per attempt is a statistic but it is not "all anyone needs to see".

Patrick Ramsey's yards per attempt for his career is 6.61

Donovan McNabb's yards per attempt for his career is 6.28.

Vinny Testaverde's yards per attempt for his career is 6.92.

Tom Brady's yards per pass attempt for his career is 6.74.

If that is all anyone needs to see, then the Eagles would be thrilled to trade McNabb for Ramsey even-up. You can't believe that.

If that is all anyone needs to see, then Ramsey for Testaverde would be a great way to screw over the Cowboys. Do you like that proposed trade?

The difference between Tom Brady and Patrick Ramsey is less than 5 inches per pass attempt. If that is all anyone needs to see, would you say that Ramsey is about 5 inches away from two Super Bowl MVP Awards? He's not - yet!

By the way, Tom Brady has been pretty successful in his three and a quarter seasons so far. (I'm not counting 2000 where he got into only one game and threw only 3 passes.) In those three and a quarter years, he has completed only 19 passes of more than 40 yards; that comes to about one every eleven quarters of football. My point is that you can be pretty efficient and effective as a QB throwing a lot of short stuff as long as you complete a lot of them; you don't have to throw it downfield all the time. What you need to be successful is a complete team around you. Tom Brady has that; Ramsey/Brunell/Hasselbeck/Hamden/Whomever does not have that in Washington just now. There's more to it that yards per pass attempt and frustration with the play calling that does not have enough fly patterns to suit your preferences.

So, my point is that there is MORE to see and more to observe and more to analyze than yards per passing attempt - unless of course the number is ZERO and then you would indeed have all the info you needed to see.[/QUOTE]


Alright, I understand what your saying. You're right.

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Unfortunately, we’ve seen more often than not that a lot of Brunell’s passes over the middle, particularly to Coles, have been overthrown and that’s forced Coles to break his stride and it’s hurt the offense.[/QUOTE]
You bring up a good point. Also another item to consider is how Brunell's throws have led Coles into two devastating hits, one by Roy Williams the other by Ray Lewis. If Brunell keeps leading his wideouts into knockouts, then an 83yd performance, may end up the norm for this team.