Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838657]What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.[/quote]

Incidental contact is inevitable at times, I agree. And yeah sometimes it's going to be unfairly flaggged, but when the league reviews it at least they aren't fining it. But poor technique is poor technique, and that's what lowering your head is.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Bubba305-ST21-;838613]I agree completely. helmet to helmet happens every single play. I would say on almost every single tackle there is helmet to helmet contact. I do however agree that when a player blatently leads with his head like a bullet and spears a player in the head, that should be a penalty and fine. However if you watch on almost all tackles helmet to helmet occurs. I feel like penalties and fines are given especialy when a guy gets hurt or a big hit occurs even if it wasnt a spearing hit! When a player hits with his shoulder, most likely the players are going to hit heads also. Some of the penalties and fines are being given for hits that are undeserving and just big hits. These penalties change games.

And what is this about a defenseless receiver? i do not understand. If a defensive back or linebacker gets to where he is suppose to be right when the ball does, [B]he cant hit him[/B]? Give me a break, does the league just want defenders to allow receivers to catch balls? When a ballcarrier has the ball they get low to brace for contact, and so does a defender to make a tackle. Helmet to helmet will naturally happen! Is the defender just suppose to take it in the chest and get ran over?[/quote]

I believe helmet to helmet is for a denfensless player only. A Linebacker can hit a WR in the process of making a catch they just cannot lead with their head because they are a defenseless player. After they have made the catch and become a runner they are no longer a denfenseless player. Its really not that hard.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838657]What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.[/quote]

I was always taught to keep my head up and that way if my helmet did hit firs then it would generally hit with the facemask not the crown of my helmet. Also on the freakishly long necks point what about Steve Largent? He had the neck of a giraffe!

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Jontrem;838643]"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL[/quote]

From the link you provided:

[quote]
A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.
[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I dont think Robinson was guilty of any of the above. And like i said above thats probably why his fine cited the defenseless receiver rule, not the helmet to helmet rule. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I havent had time to look up the official rules, but the summary page doesnt really help in debating the nuances of the rules; which is why i created this thread since the NFL seems to use nuances of rules when fining or cracking down on big time hits. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=hooskins;838659][B]And it is all statistics. When your head is lowered you are more likely to injure someone.[/B] I side with the NFL on all this. The game is too fast and players are too strong. We see what some of the NFL vets have had to go through and its a shame. Any rule that benefits the NFL Players' health, I [B]support, even if it fundamentally changes the game I love[/B].[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You got anything to back that up, or quotes from people who have said that? Im not trying to be a dick, and i get that keeping your head up can prevent injury to yourself but im not so sure about a opposing player.[/FONT][/COLOR]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For this Robinson hit i think the rule is complete bs, thats what i dont like about it. I would support making it a penalty for a QB to lead a receiver into a hit, but I don’t think id support making zone coverage illegal. Would you support either?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmpetert;838751][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You got anything to back that up, or quotes from high ranking people who have said that? Im not trying to be a dick, but i get that keeping your head up can prevent injury to yourself but im not so sure about a opposing player.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For this Robinson hit i think the rule is complete bs, thats what i dont like about it. [B]I would support making it a penalty for a QB to lead a receiver into a hit[/B], but I don’t think id support making zone coverage illegal. Would you support either?[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

Not sure that's the way to go either. Then you are discouraging QBs from making certain throws, and that will open them up to taking more hits and sacks.

I don't think there's an easy answer to all this, otherwise the NFL would already be doing something different. They want to make the game safer and also keep it entertaining. For all the gripes about this sort of stuff, it sure isn't hurting the ratings. Until it does, I don't think much is going to change.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838756]Not sure that's the way to go either. Then you are discouraging QBs from making certain throws, and that will open them up to taking more hits and sacks.

I don't think there's an easy answer to all this, otherwise the NFL would already be doing something different. They want to make the game safer and also keep it entertaining. For all the gripes about this sort of stuff, it sure isn't hurting the ratings. Until it does, I don't think much is going to change.[/quote]

it has nothing to do with ratings. of course we're going to watch. that's not the point. the integrity of the game is being ruined by the league office. roger goodell should go be the commish of tennis or something cause he's not a football person.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=skinsfan69;838773]it has nothing to do with ratings. of course we're going to watch. that's not the point. the integrity of the game is being ruined by the league office. roger goodell should go be the commish of tennis or something cause he's not a football person.[/quote]

No, it kinda is the point.

If the integrity of the game was truly being ruined, people would tune out.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=firstdown;838726]I believe helmet to helmet is for a denfensless player only. A Linebacker can hit a WR in the process of making a catch they just cannot lead with their head because they are a defenseless player. After they have made the catch and become a runner they are no longer a denfenseless player. Its really not that hard.[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Im [I][FONT=Verdana]pretty certain[/FONT][/I] the helmet to helmet rule is for any tackle. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Also im [I][FONT=Verdana]pretty sure[/FONT][/I] that a WR can only be touched during a catch or immediately after a catch as long as they are not considered defenseless. So a WR being trailed closely from behind by a CB or LB can get hit as soon as he catches the ball. However a WR running in the direction of a CB or LB cannot be touched until they are running AND they are also in a position to defend themselves.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Maclin caught the ball and was running and even made a attempt to avoid contact, however; since his catch was made in front of Robinson he was ultimately in a defenseless position. Robinson techniqely couldn’t do anything, but would of likely gotten away with a arm or whiff type tackle if he tried. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If i was a offensive coordinator i would be designing plays that would put a WR in a defenseless position after a catch when certain zones coverages are used. Youd be foolish not to. Theoretically the WR shouldn’t get touched and if he does its 15 yards from the spot of the foul even if he drops the catch. Its troubling in my opinion that offensive coordinators have that opportunity.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So I put pretty certain and pretty sure above in italics because ive searched hard and cant find the definition of these rules anywhere. Anyone have them or know where to get them? This a HUGE part of the problem......[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Daseal;838530]What I want to see is offensive players fined/flagged when they lead with their helmet. You see a running back constantly drop their helmet into the defenders helmet and create that helmet to helmet contact. Why should a RB be able to lead with his head into a pile?[/quote]

im pretty sure you can hit a running back or any established runner helmet to helmet.

the helmet to helmet rules apply to defenseless players only i think (players with ball who havent established themselves as runners)

as to qbs you cant hit them at the knees or below if you have an unobstructed path (seems real vague to me), you cant touch their head/helmet with any part of your body and im still trying to figure out if you cant lead with your helmet anywhere on a qb.

ps - the rules for defenders is almost impossible for them to comply with all the time, the game is just too fast, players move/lower their head at the last second before impact changing where the defender's intended point of impact . . . its just become impossible really.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmpetert;838791][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Im [I][FONT=Verdana]pretty certain[/FONT][/I] the helmet to helmet rule is for any tackle. [/FONT][/COLOR]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So I put pretty certain and pretty sure above in italics because ive searched hard and cant find the definition of these rules anywhere. Anyone have them or know where to get them? This a HUGE part of the problem......[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

im pretty certain helmet to helmet is fine if it is on an established runner.

i looked at nfl.com, the rule books, digest and surprising found nothing explaining it or laying out the exact language of the rule. . . im sure it is some where . .probably an espn artilce detailing the news rules and emphasis.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838777]No, it kinda is the point.

If the integrity of the game was truly being ruined, people would tune out.[/quote]

So you like watching all these ticky tack personal foul calls? Wow.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=skinsfan69;838812]So you like watching all these ticky tack personal foul calls? Wow.[/quote]

Huh? I never said that.

Despite the ticky tack fouls as you say, I'm still watching, you're still watching, and so are millions of others.

So how much impact do these fouls really have on the so called integrity of the game??

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Not sure anyone remembers this....In a pre season game a Jacksonville rookie hit Chad Johnson. Clean hit, Johnson even said so after the game. Not only was it a god awful call but the guy got fined and he hadn't even made the team yet. I think the guy ended up making the practice squad but he still has to pay this big fine and it was a large part of his salary. If this isn't ruining the integrity of the game then I don't know what is....the essence of what defensive football is all about....getting a big hit and trying to seperate the offensive player from the ball.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838816]Huh? I never said that.

Despite the ticky tack fouls as you say, I'm still watching, you're still watching, and so are millions of others.

So how much impact do these fouls really have on the so called integrity of the game??[/quote]

I'm just asking you a question. Does it bother you when you see a ticky tack call that could potentially have impact on a game?