Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Absolutly! Parcells was dead on with that one. And as far as talent evaluation when it comes to QB's, he passed on Delhome because he didn't believe he was worth an extra million which Delhome recieved from Carolina, only to winde up with the million dollar arm, and the ten cent brain in Bledsoe for his QB, nice job Bill! :biggthump

As far as Ramsey is concerned, nobody here has seen him in a legitamate offense in the NFL, all he did was run for his life when SS was here, and he threw it extremly well under SS whenever he wasen't being lambasted by a defender after 3 step's. He then played some last season in a Gibbs offense that was going no where. Then he get's outplayed by Brunell in the pre-season, of coarse he was facing mostly starters, while a seasoned veteran in Brunell moved the ball against the A-P bag boys, Brunell had more success but he wasen't anything remotly spectacular in the pre-season.

Then comes the Bears game, a reciever runs the wrong route and Ramsey is blamed for the INT, he then gets closed line and fumbles on a personel foul and nothing is called, after he drove the ball twice down the throats of what has become the best defense in the NFL. Enter Brunell, now everyone wants to focus on Patrick's TO's yet we are not to look at Brunells 2 TO's the very next game against the cowboys, now Gibbs allowed Brunell to redeem himself, and he did with 2 miracle throws in the last 4 minutes after being as pathetic as a QB can be for the first 56 minutes.

To bad Patrick wasen't given that same chance by Gibbs, the deck was always stacked in Brunells favor, Ramsey has been treated like the redheaded step child since Gibbs arrived.

The real killer here is Gibbs can succeed with just about anyone at QB, Rypien, Williams, and Schroeder, so it is no surprise that he is now succeeding with Brunell, who IMO is better than the 3 I just mentioned, but to say Ramsey wouldn't succeed either is nonesense, Ramsey IMO is better than those 3 as well, and would be enjoying the same kind of success that Brunell is now, he has not had a real opportunity to prove himself PERIOD! If you want to believe that he won't succeed if given a fair chance [you know like Brunell recieved all last season] then fine, but to say he's already failed is nonesense.[/QUOTE]

[b]WARNING:[/b] this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of [b]mastery[/b] in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the [b]QB master[/b] is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with [b]WHAT IS. I believe[/b] PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. [b]I know[/b] Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]2006 would be a good time to expose Campbell to that as a #2 and find out how he'll respond. We already know Ramsey doesn't respond well to those situations.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Hog1][b]WARNING:[/b] this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of [b]mastery[/b] in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the [b]QB master[/b] is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with [b]WHAT IS. I believe[/b] PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. [b]I know[/b] Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.[/QUOTE]

Probably one of the better, if not the best, balanced Ramsey v. Brunell posts I've seen.

Good Post, man.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Southpaw]Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?[/QUOTE]

In all fairness South, you know that was one helluva catch by Moss.

I do, however, feel that Ramsey responded well after Brunell went down.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]In all fairness South, you know that was one helluva catch by Moss.

I do, however, feel that Ramsey responded well after Brunell went down.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The catch by Moss was impressive, but Will Allen was in position to make a play on it, if the pass had been exactly where it was supposed to be. Ramsey was also looking to his checkdowns, and getting it out of his hands quickly. He looked like a completely different quarterback than he did in preseason.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Southpaw]I agree. The catch by Moss was impressive, but Will Allen was in position to make a play on it, if the pass had been exactly where it was supposed to be. Ramsey was also looking to his checkdowns, and getting it out of his hands quickly. He looked like a completely different quarterback than he did in preseason.[/QUOTE]

I'm not suggesting Ramsey isn't capable or won't be a good quaterback. I personally think he'll back here next year.

The Ramsey/Brunell thing is a moot point right now considering where the Skins are and what they've accomplished with Brunell at the helm.

It will be a very interesting off-season at Redskins Park as usual though.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Now YOUR ASSUMING he doesn't want to stay. It has been denied numerous times by all involved that he ever asked for a trade. Whether it's true or not it HAS been denied. Even if he did ask for a trade is it hard to fathom that he could change his mind? Maybe he thinks all of a sudden this is a great opp for him. I don't know but it is possible. Point is we don't know.
I was postulating a theoretical idea that, admittedly I wasn't clear about, I applied to this situation. If you don't want to discuss a theoretical idea then that's fine but don't denigrate someone for it.

Young QBs don't "need to play to get better" For every guy you mentioned there can be 3 or 4 that were given similar opps and never panned out. I don't think it is unreasonable to say a second year guy can still get value out of being the third stringer. Maybe he can get more value out of that than being the second stringer and getting forced into action before he is mentally ready. I don't know but it seems to me that it cant hurt. Seeing as this is how Gibbs did it in the past I would guess he thinks much the same way. I agree letting Campbell play more could well get him to super star status within a couple seasons. Or it could have him flipping burgers back in Alabama by the time he is 26. I don't really want to argue this because neither of us is really right. Some guys it will help to play and some it won't. Plus I am not arguing that the best thing to do for Campbell is to sit him as the 3rd guy. I am saying for the Skins having him as the 3rd guy increases the likelihood that he will be great and provides future depth. This is down the line but it most likely increase those things By how much? Who knows.

Now your debating whether the idea of keeping 3 good QBs is good or not and that's cool to me. I personally think that I am not sure. How's that for confusing? The thought I presented came from looking at what they did this year and wondering if they might try it again next year. If they do and it is successful maybe the way the rest of the league handles the position isn't always the right way to go and keeping the three is a good long term solution to the position. I know it ties up money in the cap but maybe it is worth it. As far as getting value for Ramsey I guess that gets weighed against what value you have for him as your second stringer. I'd love to end up getting something for him too if they aren't going to keep him. I'm not suggesting we keep him for no good reason.

Well that's a fundamental argument. Could it be that having a QB trained well in his mechanics and understanding the offense completely enough to have supreme confidence when he finally gets put into pressure situation will be even more successful than trial by fire? Maybe, maybe not. I tend to go with my more conservative approach while many others go with yours. Again it depends on the player in question I can't honestly comment on Campbell since I have no idea what the guy can handle. I would say that maybe Ramsey would respond better now knowing the offense more completely and seeing how it was run by a vet. I look at PRs deficiencies as not being in the "pressure-handling" area but more in the decision making area. But that's just me.[/QUOTE]

So basically you're not saying much of anything. Maybe this and maybe that. Theory this and theory that.

I'll also add this: No QB has ever gotten worse because of the fact that they played. If they flopped after playing early in their careers, it's because they sucked in the first place. No QB gets spoiled by playing too early, that's just garbage.

Who in the world gets WORSE at what they do as they gain experience?

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Southpaw]Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?[/QUOTE]

That play was all Santana Moss. He came back and adjusted to the ball which was thrown behind him. Then Will Allen stumbled and Moss was gone.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

Stumbled or did Moss push him down like a bitch?

I could have sworn it was a combo of Allen back-peddling and Moss pushing him down.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]So basically you're not saying much of anything. Maybe this and maybe that. Theory this and theory that.

I'll also add this: No QB has ever gotten worse because of the fact that they played. If they flopped after playing early in their careers, it's because they sucked in the first place. No QB gets spoiled by playing too early, that's just garbage.

Who in the world gets WORSE at what they do as they gain experience?[/QUOTE]
That's crap. If you are unable to admit that playing a guy before he is ready can potentially ruin a guy's psyche or even worse put him in position to get hurt then you clearly are clueless on this. To say that you only get better with experience is what is garbage. Experience for the sake of experience doesn't absolutly make a player better. A player has to have the tools both physically and mentally to use that experience as a positive.
If a QB goes in and throws 6 interceptions in a row but has absolutely no idea why it happened said player can't get anything from that experience other than that he sucks. Once you start being unable to contextualize your experience and use it as a learning tool then experience becomes valuable. To contextualize you need mental maturity and an understanding of your mission and the proper technique and procedures to achieve your mission. This is the basic way humans learn not just NFL QBs.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]That's crap. If you are unable to admit that playing a guy before he is ready can potentially ruin a guy's psyche or even worse put him in position to get hurt then you clearly are clueless on this. To say that you only get better with experience is what is garbage. Experience for the sake of experience doesn't absolutly make a player better. A player has to have the tools both physically and mentally to use that experience as a positive.
If a QB goes in and throws 6 interceptions in a row but has absolutely no idea why it happened said player can't get anything from that experience other than that he sucks. Once you start being unable to contextualize your experience and use it as a learning tool then experience becomes valuable. To contextualize you need mental maturity and an understanding of your mission and the proper technique and procedures to achieve your mission. This is the basic way humans learn not just NFL QBs.[/QUOTE]

I find this to be ridiculous, I guess we're just not going to agree on this whatsoever. I say that if you play and you have a bad experience, and it hurts your psyche or your confidence or whatever, then you clearly weren't cut out for the QB spot in the first place. Some things can't be taught, and moxie is one of them. Either you have it or you don't, and if adversity hurts your psyche or confidence, then you don't have it.

I don't want QBs on my team that need to be coddled and encouraged when they have a bad game. The coaching staff has way too many other things to be worried about to concern themselves with how little Johnny wants his mommy after a bad game. If you throw six interceptions, you have to come with the skill to put it behind you, and you have to come built with the determination to get better. That cannot be taught. Joe Gibbs has said it himself, QBs have to endure a lot, and if they can't handle it, then they're not really cut out for the position.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I find this to be ridiculous, I guess we're just not going to agree on this whatsoever. I say that if you play and you have a bad experience, and it hurts your psyche or your confidence or whatever, then you clearly weren't cut out for the QB spot in the first place. Some things can't be taught, and moxie is one of them. Either you have it or you don't, and if adversity hurts your psyche or confidence, then you don't have it.

I don't want QBs on my team that need to be coddled and encouraged when they have a bad game. The coaching staff has way too many other things to be worried about to concern themselves with how little Johnny wants his mommy after a bad game. If you throw six interceptions, you have to come with the skill to put it behind you, and you have to come built with the determination to get better. That cannot be taught. Joe Gibbs has said it himself, QBs have to endure a lot, and if they can't handle it, then they're not really cut out for the position.[/QUOTE]



Competitors usually have big egos (not brash, mind you, but big egos... they're confident) and when they look bad it does get into their head, and gibbs is one of the first to commend someone, and publicly defend them after a bad game... such as brunell at AZ and PH, and remember when Robert Royal had all those drops... and he mentioned in the press conference that Robert was a core guy and he just had a bad day but has been outstanding and all of that... that in a sense was coddling.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]Competitors usually have big egos (not brash, mind you, but big egos... they're confident) and when they look bad it does get into their head, and gibbs is one of the first to commend someone, and publicly defend them after a bad game... such as brunell at AZ and PH, and remember when Robert Royal had all those drops... and he mentioned in the press conference that Robert was a core guy and he just had a bad day but has been outstanding and all of that... that in a sense was coddling.[/QUOTE]

Yeah pats on the back are helpful in terms of showing support for a guy, I didn't mean that coaches shouldn't need to pay attention to those kinds of things with players. But a pat on the back didn't make Royal better. That's just consoling him after a bad game. Royal bounced back because he was determined to show that he could do better. He's a guy with good character and he came back determined.

Gibbs did the same with Brunell last year. He publicly defended him all year. But the reason Gibbs publicly defends guys like Royal and Brunell is because he knows they have that inner determination not to give up when things aren't going well.

Royal took his bad game hard, and was near tears in the locker room. But that doesn't mean he was going to get discouraged. I want QBs like that. And if we put Campbell in the game and he throws 6 picks and he gets discouraged and down on himself, then I want him off my team.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10] And if we put Campbell in the game and he throws 6 picks and he gets discouraged and down on himself, then I want him off my team.[/QUOTE]

Good point. I want the guy that throws six picks, and responds to it with "Eh, no big deal...". :laughing2

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Hog1][b]WARNING:[/b] this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of [b]mastery[/b] in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the [b]QB master[/b] is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with [b]WHAT IS. I believe[/b] PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. [b]I know[/b] Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.[/QUOTE]

Well he has in the past, before Theisman went down there was a lot of talk about Gibbs being to loyal to Joey T., and to be honest Theisman time had passed, Theisman was hard to watch late in his carreer, and yet he wouldn't yank him, understandably. But Gibbs had to do a major sell to get Brunell to come to DC, if you remember Brunell wasen't inthrawled to coming here because he felt he could still start, knowing Patrick was the future here, what do you think he was promised? No way Gibbs made that trade and paid that kind of money for a very possible backup! Gibbs made commitments to Brunell, Ramsey was on the outside looking in before he ever met Gibbs. Gibbs has no ties to Ramsey, and if you believe you can win with either than who would you go with? It's obvious the player who you are heavily invested in. I am not so much pro Ramsey as I am pro Skins, and with that I want to be the best we can be as a team, and that is why I back Ramsey because I have alway's felt he would make us better as a team than Brunell.

The fact is I am not a homer in any sense of the word, that is what allows my objectivity, homers agree with anything and everything their team does, they join forces with every decision made within the organization, if Gibbs say's this, or that, that's it do not question it, nobody is perfect, or right all the time, and that includes Gibbs, AND MYSELF as well.

The point I am trying to make which is my opinion, is that Gibbs was under a lot of heat to make Brunell pan out, he spent 43 mil, of Snyders money and gave up a #2 pick, for a QB who would have been released and signed for a backup roll and paid accordingly, one of the reasons we gave up a #2 was because Gibbs didn't want Brunell to hit free agency knowing Brunell didn't want to come here, Brunell on his own would be looking to try and start somewhere's else.

Last season is a big example of Gibbs loyalty to brunell, there isn't a member here who didn't want Brunells head last season, and probably every last person here wanted Ramsey, yet Gibbs stuck with the guy no matter how bad it got, and it got bad, so bad Gibbs finally made the switch, now either Brunell was hurt and Gibbs played him anyway, or Gibbs offense was just flat out lame? Either way Brunell was as horrible at the QB position last season as I probably have ever seen.

Now I don't have a problem with Gibbs making it work with Brunell, in fact I am very glad we are finally on the right track, I just feel and will alway's feel until Ramsey proves otherwise, that he's a better fit for a Gibbs offense, and for our team, and feel he was treated unfairly. But I also have alway's felt the bigger issue wasen't the QB's inability to play the position, but Gibbs inability to run the offense, that seems to have been rectified, and as Brunell has become better, so do I believe Ramsey would have blossomed as well.

But it's water under the bridge now, and I will be routing for Brunell big time to succeed tommorow.

QB controversies are for the off-season, this is playoff time! :biggthump

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]The fact is I am not a homer in any sense of the word, that is what allows my objectivity, homers agree with anything and everything their team does, they join forces with every decision made within the organization, if Gibbs say's this, or that, that's it do not question it, nobody is perfect, or right all the time, and that includes Gibbs, AND MYSELF as well.
[/QUOTE]
Quick question.
Are the people who say things like "I trust Gibbs to make personell decisions even when they seem ridiculous" homers?
There are a lot of people around here who basically blindly follow what Gibbs does and says and I was wonderng whether you thought they were homers?

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

I don't believe that Ramsey's reputation is such that a trade would bring value. I think the best thing for the Redskins would be to keep him around another season. I suspect Patrick (and his agent) believe that he is a starter and would not quietly accept another season as backup. Of course coach pulled a fast one on the Jets last year that nobody saw coming so maybe he can salvage something put of this situation. Does anyone know the specifics of Ramsey's contract? Please advise.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I've thought every since the Giants game that Gibbs would be very, very reluctant to let Ramsey go. It would have to be a really sweet deal.[/QUOTE] your right he's not going anywhere.he's (ramsey) a tough kid. gibbs likes 'em tough:banghead:

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.
I like that!

Offiss
I have nothing against you, but Hog1 called you a Ramsey-homer, not a redskins-homer. Frankly after reading a ton of your pro-Ramsey posts, I have to agree with Hog1, you are a Ramsey-homer. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you were coach of the Redskins staring tomorrow, you would bench Brunnell and start Ramsey. Right?
Even though Brunnell had a great year and Ramsey hasn't PROVEN he can be a dependable NFL QB, you stated in no uncertain terms you would put all your chips on Ramsey. I think you have said that Ramsey he is a better QB than Mark Brunnell and Campbell. That is basing alot on potential. That is a Ramsey-homer.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

not to nit pick but wasn't it a 3rd round pick that we gave up for Brunell?
I know I agree with others that posted that this should have been handled differently, but if gibbs honestly saw Ramsey having the potential to lead this team in the future, there is absolutely no way he would have given so much for Brunell and then once again for Campbell. And from a man who is extremely devoted to the success of this franchise and a very reliable past in choosing qbs, for me personally that speaks volume of Gibbs lack of faith in Ramsey. Call me a homer if anyone wants but Gibbs has shown what he was doing in the past especially involving this position so until proven 100% wrong, I for one will trust his choices. There is no way Ramsey stays with the team past next season so we need to get something for him while we can, simple as that. oh and GO SKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

they should get rid of campbell before ramsey, i was not to impreesed with the logic of that pick in the first place.

Re: Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins]WARNING: this is not a personal attack.
I like that!

Offiss
I have nothing against you, but Hog1 called you a Ramsey-homer, not a redskins-homer. Frankly after reading a ton of your pro-Ramsey posts, I have to agree with Hog1, you are a Ramsey-homer. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you were coach of the Redskins staring tomorrow, you would bench Brunnell and start Ramsey. Right?
Even though Brunnell had a great year and Ramsey hasn't PROVEN he can be a dependable NFL QB, you stated in no uncertain terms you would put all your chips on Ramsey. I think you have said that Ramsey he is a better QB than Mark Brunnell and Campbell. That is basing alot on potential. That is a Ramsey-homer.[/QUOTE]

Wrong, I have said that I would be reluctant to make any switch this late in the season, Brunell right now has to be much more in tune with the offense and his recievers than Ramsey who has sat the bench all season, that is to much of a risk to make a switch now. But if I was the coach when Gibbs took over there would be no Brunell, or Campbell, and we would have plenty of draft picks this year. Oh yea Arrington would have been dealt before we renued his contract, [just thought Id throw that in :) ]

I guess it's how you look at the definition of homer, my belief is that a homer is someone that agrees with everything his team does right, wrong, or indifferent, Am I a Ramsey supporter? Yes, but it's not as if I support the guy after he's failed continually just because I like him, he hasen't had a legitamate shot to play in a real structured NFL offense, if I were a homer I would be saying we are going to win every week, quite honestly I get occasional flack for being quite the opposite, I had some posters question whether I really was a skin's fan, I just don't believe in blowing smoke up someone's A**, I am not going to blow it up mine.

Obviously I do base a lot of what I believe Ramsey can be on potential, but if you believe one player is better than another then I guess everyone is a homer in some sense of the word. I have been surrounded by Giant fans here in jersey my whole life, believe you me I know what homer's are! :party-smi