Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72



You seem to be saying that platooning can't be done gradually. Is that it?[/quote]

What the heck is a gradual platoon??

So by playoff time Campbell is the starter? Do they alternate starts, snaps, series, quarters... what exactly do you have in mind for this platoon??

I'm sorry but the more I hear the more absurd this is sounding. Or actually the less I hear because you haven't given much detail.

Platoons at QB don't work in the NFL, that's the bottom line.

If you have a platoon it's because your team stinks, you don't have a clear-cut #1 guy, or you have injuries.

Once again I will ask for an example of a successful QB platoon in the NFL. And by successful I mean a platoon that at least got a team to the playoffs.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I'd also like to know what "gradual platoon" means

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Mattyk72

[QUOTE]What the heck is a gradual platoon??[/QUOTE]

The young QB's playing time might start with a series or two, with plays he handles well, planned and practised. Then, his playing time is increased gradually until the point where he might start and play an entire game.

Whether Campbell would be our starter for a final playoff run depends upon his progress. If it doesn't go well with him, we have Brunell fairly fresh over the final half of the season rather than the first half.

[QUOTE] Platoons at QB don't work in the NFL, that's the bottom line.[/QUOTE]

It's a creative idea. The Browns did it. Most people thought it was a good way to handle a young QB and I agree.

[QUOTE] Once again I will ask for an example of a successful QB platoon in the NFL. And by successful I mean a platoon that at least got a team to the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

I can't think of one. Platooning has been rare in the NFL.

On the other hand, it's not as though we're tossing away a better option. Mark isn't likely to do it on his own either.

My suggestion is an attempt to make the best of a less-than-ideal QB situation.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=memphisskin]The longer we hold Campbell back, the longer it will take for him to adjust to playing qb. I could see holding him back if the offensive line couldn't protect him, but our line is a team strength and our qb isn't going to have to carry our offense anyway.[/quote]

Holding him back by choice is usually a good thing. The longer we hold him back the more time he has to study and analyze what the veteran did in a particular situation. The more time the QB can learn a system the better off he is. Having a great O-line will make it easier on any QB.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72

It's a creative idea. The Browns did it. Most people thought it was a good way to handle a young QB and I agree.

[/quote]

The Browns weren't a playoff caliber team with aspirations of a Super Bowl appearance. If I were the Browns, I probably would have done the same thing. What did they have to lose? They didn't have a supporting cast that would have taken either of their QBs to the playoffs. We have a QB that has taken us to the playoffs. We've given that same QB better WRs and an offensive coordinator. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, for so many reasons, the Skins are not the Browns.

Oh, and this doesn't mean I view your Browns example as "irrelevant", It simply makes it "unconvincing" and "distinguishable" to me.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Once again I will ask for an example of a successful QB platoon in the NFL. And by successful I mean a platoon that at least got a team to the playoffs.[/quote]

The Browns kinda used a platoon in 2002, but a lot of that was due to injuries.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72



The young QB's playing time might start with a series or two, with plays he handles well, planned and practised. Then, his playing time is increased gradually until the point where he might start and play an entire game.

Whether Campbell would be our starter for a final playoff run depends upon his progress. If it doesn't go well with him, we have Brunell fairly fresh over the final half of the season rather than the first half.



It's a creative idea. The Browns did it. Most people thought it was a good way to handle a young QB and I agree.



I can't think of one. Platooning has been rare in the NFL.

On the other hand, it's not as though we're tossing away a better option. Mark isn't likely to do it on his own either.

My suggestion is an attempt to make the best of a less-than-ideal QB situation.[/quote]

Well, I guess ultimately our perceptions of our QB situation differ, and since perceptions aren't worth debating what are we wasting our time over?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, for so many reasons, the Skins are not the Browns.[/quote]

Hence making this whole debate irrelevant, don't you think?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Hence making this whole debate irrelevant, don't you think?[/quote]

One could certainly make that point. ;)

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Hence making this whole debate irrelevant, don't you think?[/quote]

Irrelevant debates seem to be a theme when Huddle is involved.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]The Browns weren't a playoff caliber team with aspirations of a Super Bowl appearance. If I were the Browns, I probably would have done the same thing. What did they have to lose? They didn't have a supporting cast that would have taken either of their QBs to the playoffs. [B]We have a QB that has taken us to the playoffs.[/B] We've given that same QB better WRs and a better offensive coordinator. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, for so many reasons, the Skins are not the Browns.[/quote]

You are correct that the Browns decision to platoon was more obvious than ours.

In the foregoing quote, you conclude that "We have a QB that has taken us to the playoffs."

Many of us didn't see that. With the exception of the Tampa Bay game, I saw a passing game that tanked after the San Francisco blowout, one that couldn't move the chains even against defenses like the Rams and Cards.

[U]Of the several reasons[/U] to account for the dropoff in production, one was that defenses caught up with Mark Brunell's game which is very limited at this point in his career. As an earlier poster noted, there is doubt whether Brunell will be helped by additional receivers.

I thought a surging defense creating turnovers, heavy reliance on an improved running game, and a very good special teams performance down the stretch got us to the playoffs.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]Irrelevant debates seem to be a theme when Huddle is involved.[/quote]

You have entered this thread only to take a shot at me?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]The young QB's playing time might start with a series or two, with plays he handles well, planned and practised. Then, his playing time is increased gradually until the point where he might start and play an entire game.[/QUOTE]

This would have to be during garbage time, in my opinion. What is the advantage of bringing in Campbell during a close game to play a series or two? Especially when, as has been pointed out here, we're knocking on the Super Bowl door.

I think this will all be a lot clearer come mid-August once we've seen both play.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]

Many of us didn't see that. With the exception of the Tampa Bay game, I saw a passing game that tanked after the San Francisco blowout, one that couldn't move the chains even against defenses like the Rams and Cards.[/quote]we won both of those games. and i seem to remember a very nice team passing day against the giants and cowboys late in dec. the qb doesnt have to throw for 300 yards every game to be a playoff caliber team.would you rather him force alot of throws that were not there, only to turn the ball over . brunell is playing the qb position right, make the throws that are there and DONT make stupid mistakes. that DID win us a playoff game, and will win you games more often then it will lose them.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Huddle,

I recognized in post #45 that I agree, in part, with those who said we got to the playoffs in spite of Brunell, not because of him. I also believe that the vastly better WR corp, O-coordinator, and (God willing) a healthy O-line would set Brunell up for a successful year.

I agree with you that defense, running game and special teams were the primary reasons we got into the playoffs last year. I think our only difference, at this point, is our view of whether Brunell can get the job done given this year's personnel or whether he can't....and, of course, whether platooning is a good idea for this year's Skins.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]You are correct that the Browns decision to platoon was more obvious than ours.

In the foregoing quote, you conclude that "We have a QB that has taken us to the playoffs."

Many of us didn't see that. With the exception of the Tampa Bay game, I saw a passing game that tanked after the San Francisco blowout, one that couldn't move the chains even against defenses like the Rams and Cards.

[U]Of the several reasons[/U] to account for the dropoff in production, one was that defenses caught up with Mark Brunell's game which is very limited at this point in his career. As an earlier poster noted, there is doubt whether Brunell will be helped by additional receivers.

I thought a surging defense creating turnovers, heavy reliance on an improved running game, and a very good special teams performance down the stretch got us to the playoffs.[/quote]

A passing game that tanked after the SF game?

Really?

Let's look at the facts.

A week later he had a horrible game against the Giants, but then again nobody played well that day.

Two weeks later against the Eagles he threw for 224 yards and was 21 of 29.

A week later he threw for 226 yards and 2 TDs against the Bucs in that wild shootout.

Against SD he was 17 of 27 for 194 yards and 1 TD.

Against the Rams he was a very efficient 14 of 21 for 156 yards and 1 TD, a game in which the Skins switched to a commitment to pounding the football.

Against the Cardinals he did struggle.

But he bounced back against Dallas with 4 TDs.

Against the Giants, (the game in which he got hurt which effectively changed the course of his season), he was 7 of 11 for 112 yards and a TD before going down.

If you ask me, there is clear correlation between his injury and the way he played the remainder of the season. Plus you add in the fact Portis was banged up and rendered ineffective in the playoffs and that only added to the passing game struggles.

So in conclusion, the passing game certainly didn't tank after the SF game, it tanked after he got injured.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]Huddle,

I recognized in post #45 that I agree, in part, with those who said we got to the playoffs in spite of Brunell, not because of him. I also believe that the vastly better WR corp, O-coordinator, and (God willing) a healthy O-line would set Brunell up for a successful year.

I agree with you that defense, running game and special teams were the primary reasons we got into the playoffs last year. I think our only difference, at this point, is our view of whether Brunell can get the job done given this year's personnel or whether he can't....and, of course, whether platooning is a good idea for this year's Skins.[/quote]

I'm willing to agree to disagree at this point. How about you?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]A passing game that tanked after the SF game?

Really?

Let's look at the facts.

A week later he had a horrible game against the Giants, but then again nobody played well that day.

Two weeks later against the Eagles he threw for 224 yards and was 21 of 29.

A week later he threw for 226 yards and 2 TDs against the Bucs in that wild shootout.

Against SD he was 17 of 27 for 194 yards and 1 TD.

Against the Rams he was a very efficient 14 of 21 for 156 yards and 1 TD, a game in which the Skins switched to a commitment to pounding the football.

Against the Cardinals he did struggle.

But he bounced back against Dallas with 4 TDs.

Against the Giants, (the game in which he got hurt which effectively changed the course of his season), he was 7 of 11 for 112 yards and a TD before going down.

If you ask me, there is clear correlation between his injury and the way he played the remainder of the season. Plus you add in the fact Portis was banged up and rendered ineffective in the playoffs and that only added to the passing game struggles.

So in conclusion, the passing game certainly didn't tank after the SF game, it tanked after he got injured.[/quote]

Your post is a good example of how selected stats can be used to support any position.

You neglected to mention that the total yardage figures show a sharp drop after the SF game when compared to those prior.

You switched to using the 4 TDs, rather than completion and yardage against Dallas while failing to mention that those TDs were chip shots with the defense and special teams providing short fields.

We lost the San diego game despite picking Brees three times...mostly because the offense was three and out all day.

The dazzling performance stats against the Raiders were omitted.

Against the Rams and Cards, the decision was made to rely heavily on the run because the passing game sucked. Yet, your statistics are offered as a fine performance.

112 yards against the Giants in three quarters...is that good? I guess compared to the first Giants game it was outstanding.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Your post is a good example of how selected stats can be used to support any position.[/quote]

Selected?

I gave you his stats for every game after the SF game.

Your take that the passing game "tanked" after the SF game just doesn't hold water, no matter what way you look at the stats.

My post is a good example of using stats to back up your stance, rather than just throwing an opinion out there that isn't justified by the numbers.

Look at his games after the SF one leading up to the Giants game in which he got injured, and tell me how the passing game was tanking.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]Your post is a good example of how selected stats can be used to support any position.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Here we go again

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]I'm willing to agree to disagree at this point. How about you?[/quote]

Agreed

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Selected?

I gave you his stats for every game after the SF game.

Your take that the passing game "tanked" after the SF game just doesn't hold water, no matter what way you look at the stats.

My post is a good example of using stats to back up your stance, rather than just throwing an opinion out there that isn't justified by the numbers.[/QUOTE]

But Matty you don't know about the stats that only a secret set of people know about. You're on the outside looking in so you can't know about such stats.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]This would have to be during garbage time, in my opinion. What is the advantage of bringing in Campbell during a close game to play a series or two? Especially when, as has been pointed out here, we're knocking on the Super Bowl door.

I think this will all be a lot clearer come mid-August once we've seen both play.[/quote]

There's not enough garbage time in the NFL to prepare a young QB. Last year, that would have amounted to about three quarters of play. Thanks to parity, most of the games are close.

If we could reasonably expect Brunell to perform well enough over an entire season for a championship run, I wouldn't have drawn the conclusion that we need to get Campbell ready and hope that he's up to the challenge.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I'm setting the line at 17 more posts before this thread gets locked if the infamous "statistics" argument gets opened up again. Who's got the over, who's got the under?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]I'm setting the line at 17 more posts before this thread gets locked if the infamous "statistics" argument gets opened up again. Who's got the over, who's got the under?[/quote]

Naw....I think you're right on PSU.

I saw it coming....

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Your post is a good example of how selected stats can be used to support any position.[/quote]

:confused:

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan]:confused:[/quote]

Just another way for him to cop-out and say, irrelevant.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Here's a stat for you. Huddle has started 12 threads since joining us. And 4 have been locked. With quite possibly a 5th on the way.

That has to be some sort of record.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]Here's a stat for you. Huddle has started 12 threads since joining us. And 4 have been locked. With quite possibly a 5th on the way.

That has to be some sort of record.[/quote]

But there are too many variables that you're not taking into account in your statistics.......so they're irrelevant.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]Here's a stat for you. Huddle has started 12 threads since joining us. And 4 have been locked. With quite possibly a 5th on the way.

That has to be some sort of record.[/quote]that is an irrelevant stat

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]Here's a stat for you. Huddle has started 12 threads since joining us. And 4 have been locked. With quite possibly a 5th on the way.

That has to be some sort of record.[/quote]

Yeah that was exactly my point before. Huddle I didn't enter this thread just to take a shot at you. I just intended to point out that most threads you are a part of become pointless debates, and include a lot of angry words tossed about. Sure it takes two to tango, and if I get into it with you again on this site, I'm sure it will be partly my fault. But there is a theme developing here don't you think? I don't see these pointless debates occurring between TAFKAS and PSU, or Malcolm and Daseal, or Matty and Cancuck. You're the common thread. That's not a shot at you, that's stating fact.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]But there are too many variables that you're not taking into account in your statistics.......so they're irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Let's platoon and alternate posts here SkinsFan21. I'll start

"I think that the key to Brunell's success this year will be the development of...."

All right, you take it from there for a sentence or two and I'll pick up on it. This is sooo creative.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]
"I think that the key to Brunell's success this year will be the development of...."
[/quote]

I'm not SkinsFan21, but I can finish that sentence. It's not about the development of anything. He and the people around him need to stay healthy. Thats it.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]Good point. Let's platoon and alternate posts here SkinsFan21. I'll start

"I think that the key to Brunell's success this year will be the development of...."

All right, you take it from there for a sentence or two and I'll pick up on it. This is sooo creative.[/quote]

....more efficient ways of distributing beer to the fans at FedEx Field."

Oops, was that a fumble on my part? I'm sorry, I'm still a bit wet behind the ears.......maybe we should have stuck to the veteran poster finishing this drive off.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]....more efficient ways of distributing beer to the fans at FedEx Field."

Oops, was that a fumble on my part? I'm sorry, I'm still a bit wet behind the ears.......maybe we should have stuck to the veteran poster finishing this drive off.[/quote]i believe that may be an ad hominem attack

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]....more efficient ways of distributing beer to the fans at FedEx Field."

Oops, was that a fumble on my part? I'm sorry, I'm still a bit wet behind the ears.......maybe we should have stuck to the veteran poster finishing this drive off.[/QUOTE]

Either that...or you've struck on an idea so ahead of our time. Better beer distribution=playoffs!

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I think it's quite obvious that the lack of receiving threats opposite Moss severely limited the Skins' passing attack coming down the stretch. That along with Brunell's sore knee over the last few games.

He's no Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, or even a Drew Brees for that matter. But when healthy he can manage the Skins to the playoffs, given his new weapons.

Trying to platoon at QB in the NFL is just plain nuts. The passing game is so much about timing. QBs and receivers need to be used to each other, from the timing of cuts to the speed of the passes to the progression of reads that QBs tend to make. Trying to platoon at QB, even in garbage time only, will not help Campbell one iota. The receivers would have to adjust to him in mid-game after being used to the way Brunell does things. Campbell and the receivers would struggle to get on the same page. You don't do that, it makes no sense. You let them compete in the preseason, then you give 80-90% of the practice reps to the guy you declare your starter. You need to develop that rhythm and comfort level.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Hey, Matty, I edited Post 98 in support of my comment.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=TAFKAS]Either that...or you've struck on an idea so ahead of our time. Better beer distribution=playoffs![/quote]

Ok, let's go with this. Better beer distribution = louder and rowdier fans = more difficulty for opposing offenses = we get the ball back more quickly = Brunell gets more opportunities to succeed = playoffs! I think it's one of the more supportable positions taken on this thread so far.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Schneed10

[QUOTE]I think it's quite obvious that the lack of receiving threats opposite Moss severely limited the Skins' passing attack coming down the stretch. That along with Brunell's sore knee over the last few games.[/QUOTE]

In 2004 it was the hammy. In 2005, it was the knee and calf. Are we hoping that 36 is a lucky number and Mark goes through the season and playoffs healhy?

Yes. It was obvious that only Moss and Cooley had good production numbers. The reasons might be debated.

[QUOTE] Trying to platoon at QB in the NFL is just plain nuts. The passing game is so much about timing. QBs and receivers need to be used to each other, from the timing of cuts to the speed of the passes to the progression of reads that QBs tend to make. Trying to platoon at QB, even in garbage time only, will not help Campbell one iota. The receivers would have to adjust to him in mid-game after being used to the way Brunell does things. Campbell and the receivers would struggle to get on the same page. You don't do that, it makes no sense. You let them compete in the preseason, then you give 80-90% of the practice reps to the guy you declare your starter. You need to develop that rhythm and comfort level.[/quote]

Despite the disadvantages you mention, which I'll grant, we have to weigh benefits. Campbell will be better prepared if he is brought along gradually.