Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]No doubt it hurts him. But I'd bet my life that if you showed me his books, he's still turning a profit.[/quote]

If he is it's very minimal. He's been closing early weeknights and not opening on sundays because it's just not worth it.

The smoking bans hurt the small guys more than anyone.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]If I knew I was loosing the 65% of the non smokers to a non smoking bar do to the smokers I would become a non smoking bar. Then word would get around and the 65% going to anothr smoking bar may come to my bar.[/quote]

Why would I go to the non-smoking bar? The chicks who put out the easiest are going to be at the smoking bar.

Seriously, if non-smoking bars and restuarants were good for business, there wouldn't need to be a law.

On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.

By way of antedotal evidence....

How many non-smokers spend significant time in heavy smoking environments yet never smoke themselves? Quite a few, right?

Well, far more powerful than the cancer causing agents smoking are the addictive properties of nicotine. If second hand smoke was a problem, just walking into a bar would get people addicted.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

Nicotine causes addiction, not cancer like the tar from the smoke that is in the air.

But yup, if she smokes, she pokes. ;)

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=RiggoRules]On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.[/quote]

Not even anywhere REMOTELY close to the truth.

[URL="http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Environmental_Tobacco_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp"]http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Environmental_Tobacco_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp[/URL]


[QUOTE]
Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. In the United States alone, each year it is responsible for:[LIST][*]An estimated 35,000 to 40,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are not current smokers[*]About 3,000 lung cancer deaths in nonsmoking adults[*]Other respiratory problems in nonsmokers, including coughing, phlegm, chest discomfort, and reduced lung function[*]150,000 to 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (such as pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age, which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations[*]Increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about 200,000 to 1 million asthmatic children.[/QUOTE][/LIST]Canada agrees:
[URL="http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile30a.stm"]http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile30a.stm[/URL]

[QUOTE]
People who do not smoke, and who are exposed to the toxic chemicals in second-hand smoke on a regular basis, can suffer serious and life-threatening health problems.

In the long term, people exposed to second-hand smoke have a greater risk of suffering from lung cancer, nasal sinus cancer, heart disease, stroke, and breathing problems, including increased coughing, wheezing, pneumonia, bronchitis, and asthma.

People who live with someone who smokes and are exposed to tobacco smoke on a regular basis have a 30 per cent increased risk of developing lung cancer and heart disease.

People who do not smoke will suffer from the effects of breathing second-hand smoke right away. Even as little as 8 to 20 minutes can cause physical reactions linked to heart disease and stroke, such as increased heart rate, less oxygen to the heart, and constricted blood vessels that increases blood pressure and makes the heart work harder.

Pregnant women exposed to second-hand smoke can have a greater risk of miscarriages and babies with low birth weight.
[/QUOTE]

I've got LOTS more where that came from.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=RiggoRules]On top of that, while it goes against the conventional wisdom, the arguement that second hand smoke causes anything more serious than stinky clothes is simply junk science. There causal link between second hand smoke and cancer or any lung disease has not been established nor is it likely to exist. There simply isn't enough concentration of any hazardous substance in even the most smoke filled dive to do any damage.[/quote]

Riggo, do you have any science to back up this absurd statement? If you're going to pull things out of your a$$, I hope you have someone backing you up.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

WebMD:

[QUOTE]Is Second-Hand Smoke Harmful to a Person with Asthma?

Second-hand smoke is the combination of smoke from a burning cigar or cigarette and smoke exhaled by a smoker.

Inhaling second-hand smoke, also called "passive smoke" or "environmental tobacco smoke," may be even more harmful than actually smoking. That's because the smoke that burns off the end of a cigar or cigarette contains more harmful substances (tar, carbon monoxide, nicotine, and others) than the smoke inhaled by the smoker.

Second-hand smoke is especially harmful to people who already have asthma. When a person with asthma is exposed to second-hand smoke, he or she is more likely to experience the wheezing, coughing and shortness of breath associated with asthma. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.webmd.com/content/article/45/1660_51090.htm[/url]

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

As a retired smoker, I had mixed feelings when Delaware banned smoking in public buildings - including all businesses. I'm not one of those "holier than thou" types (Actually, I probably [u]am[/u] holier than thou, but it has nothing to do with smoking. I'm just very holy. Nothing personal.), so I didn't think the decision on smoking should be made by anyone but the business themselves. If a restaurant chose to cater to a smoking clientelle, then so be it.

In Delaware, it's a cash fine [b]to the business[/b] if someone is smoking in their establishment - the smoker faces no penalty. That's garbage to begin with - but it gets worse. In addition to the fine, a business faces suspension of their liquor license. Since only restaurants and bars can face that portion of the punishment, it's a horrible application of the law.

I have to tell you though, when I go out to a bar, it's very nice not to smell like smoke when I get home.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]They're very different. One rule denies people the opportunity to eat food anywhere. The other denies people the opportunity to smoke IN CERTAIN PLACES. I don't see what's so hard to understand here. One is an all out ban, the other simply designates areas as off-limits.[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about an all-out ban, Schneed. I never said anything about a ban on all fried, fatty, unhealthy foods EVERYWHERE. [B]I'm talking restaurants only.[/B] In this scenario, I'm assuming that you can eat whatever you want if you go elsewhere, or decide to eat at home -- just like you can with smoking -- if you don't like it, you can stay home and eat or find another restaurant.

If the government can ban smoking in restaurants to protect the health of the patrons, why can't they do the same with the food that restaurant serves?

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

speaking of smoking....

Today, of course, is April 20 so Happy 420 Day!

:cool-smil

puff...puff...pass

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=TAFKAS]speaking of smoking....

Today, of course, is April 20 so Happy 420 Day!

:cool-smil

puff...puff...pass[/quote]

I was just about to post a 4/20 day thread.

I think it's worthy of it's own thread, :cool-smil:cool-smil:cool-smil:cool-smil:cool-smil

Just wish I was going to be celebrating it in true 4/20 fashion, unfortunately I'm all dried up. :(

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]I'm not talking about an all-out ban, Schneed. I never said anything about a ban on all fried, fatty, unhealthy foods EVERYWHERE. [B]I'm talking restaurants only.[/B] In this scenario, I'm assuming that you can eat whatever you want if you go elsewhere, or decide to eat at home -- just like you can with smoking -- if you don't like it, you can stay home and eat or find another restaurant.

If the government can ban smoking in restaurants to protect the health of the patrons, why can't they do the same with the food that restaurant serves?[/quote]

OK fine, but there's still a difference. Restaurants offer choices, you can choose to order something fatty or you can choose to order something healthy. If I want to order something healthy, whether or not the guy sitting behind me is eating fried chicken has absolutely NO IMPACT on my health. Some restaurants only serve fatty foods, such as KFC. But if I want to be healthy, I'm not forced to go to KFC to eat. I have OPTIONS, I can go to Subway.

However, if I want to find a bar to meet a girl in (I'm married, so this is just hypothetical) I'll have to put up with somebody else's unhealthy habit. I have NO CHOICE. I could opt to stay home, but I ask you what's easier: ask those who don't like smoke to stay home, or simply ask those who smoke to step outside and return when finished?

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]LOL

Why didn't the non-smoker get a cab? In that absolutely ludicrous hypothetical example, it was the drunk driver's choice to get behind the wheel that killed the guy, not the many beers he drank "in celebration" of a smoking ban.

The alcohol is not an excuse. You still have to be responsible for your actions when wasted. It's not the bar's fault that he chose to drive home, it's not the state's fault, it's not Anheuser-Busch's fault, it's HIS fault.[/quote]True but if the state had a limit that the person could drink than we would have less deaths from drunking driving. It would be in the puplics best interest to have this limit to save lives. Its funny how the role of goverment changes to meet your needs but when its something that effects you its not a good pratice or the role of the goverment. You even addmitted yourself that it would not be good law because it effected what you wanted and listed how and why it would effect you.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]True but if the state had a limit that the person could drink than we would have less deaths from drunking driving. It would be in the puplics best interest to have this limit to save lives. Its funny how the role of goverment changes to meet your needs but when its something that effects you its not a good pratice or the role of the goverment. You even addmitted yourself that it would not be good law because it effected what you wanted and listed how and why it would effect you.[/quote]

Firstdown, I listed drunken hookups, funny stories from nights out with your buddies, and bachelor parties. You think that's me?

You must have missed getting to know me over the last year on the Warpath because I am married with a child on the way in October, I think ATVs are extremely dangerous, and I haven't been to a bar in like six months. This whole bar argument doesn't apply to me at all. I don't go to bars. I'm simply arguing the point based on my sense of right and wrong.

The argument is not about how it would affect ME. The argument is that it prevents all responsible people from getting drunk and having fun, in addition to preventing drunk driving. It limits EVERYONE's freedom to CHOOSE to get drunk; it doesn't just limit the drunk drivers. A ban on indoor smoking still allows people to smoke outside, which barely limits freedoms at all. So you have to walk 10 feet to get outdoors for five minutes to catch your smoke. Oooh, big inconvenience.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]True but if the state had a limit that the person could drink than we would have less deaths from drunking driving.[/QUOTE]
I apologize, but had to jump at this...

States do have limits as to what is acceptible drink-wise. Hence why DUI laws exist.

In essence, each alcoholic drink is .02 on your BAC...and takes just over an hour or so for that alcohol to leave your system. 6 drinks in a 2 hour period (.12 - .04 = .08) Meaning if you get caught, you're up DUI creek without a paddle.

And it still does not deter people from driving drunk...

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Firstdown, I listed drunken hookups, funny stories from nights out with your buddies, and bachelor parties. You think that's me?

You must have missed getting to know me over the last year on the Warpath because I am married with a child on the way in October, I think ATVs are extremely dangerous, and I haven't been to a bar in like six months. This whole bar argument doesn't apply to me at all. I don't go to bars. I'm simply arguing the point based on my sense of right and wrong.

The argument is not about how it would affect ME. The argument is that it prevents all responsible people from getting drunk and having fun, in addition to preventing drunk driving. It limits EVERYONE's freedom to CHOOSE to get drunk; it doesn't just limit the drunk drivers. A ban on indoor smoking still allows people to smoke outside, which barely limits freedoms at all. So you have to walk 10 feet to get outdoors for five minutes to catch your smoke. Oooh, big inconvenience.[/quote]Yes, it did sound like you were talking about yourself and congragtulations on the child it will change your life for ever(in a good way). I'm married myself with a child in college and have not been to a bar in about the same amount of time (did that enough before I got married). We will have to disagree on this but we can agree on the skins

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Riggo, do you have any science to back up this absurd statement? If you're going to pull things out of your a$$, I hope you have someone backing you up.[/quote]

Here is just one link. I've got a number of them that address various issues where political correctness trumps good science.

[URL="http://www.junkscience.com/feb01/perske.htm"]http://www.junkscience.com/feb01/perske.htm[/URL]

Here is the article I meant to post:

[url]http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/pas-smok.htm[/url]

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=BDBohnzie]I apologize, but had to jump at this...

States do have limits as to what is acceptible drink-wise. Hence why DUI laws exist.

In essence, each alcoholic drink is .02 on your BAC...and takes just over an hour or so for that alcohol to leave your system. 6 drinks in a 2 hour period (.12 - .04 = .08) Meaning if you get caught, you're up DUI creek without a paddle.

And it still does not deter people from driving drunk...[/quote]I know they have limits and that they do not work. People where saying that the state passed the no smoking law to protect people and I was saying that it sould be the bars decision. I just used the example that if the state passed laws limiting how much alcolhol they could sell to people it would reduce drinking and driving which would be for the good of the people. It was just an example of just one law they could pass to so call protect people and we could list one after another. I feel people are picking sides based on if they like the law or not and not if its the goverments role to pass such laws. If it limited something they liked to do their opinion would be the opposite and their opinions on goverments role to protect us from everything would change.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

all the friction over violating some smoker or non smokers rights meanwhile illegal wiretapping continues....

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=dmek25]all the friction over violating some smoker or non smokers rights meanwhile illegal wiretapping continues....[/quote]

:goodjob:

Yeah, let's just allow people to call Al Qaeda whenever they want.


Geesh. I hope you were kidding...

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=dmek25]all the friction over violating some smoker or non smokers rights meanwhile illegal wiretapping continues....[/quote]

That's the Bush admin for ya. Distract people from the real issues at hand, and scare everyone into giving up more personal freedoms.

Isn't it time to raise that stupid terror alert again??

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Mattyk72]That's the Bush admin for ya. Distract people from the real issues at hand, and scare everyone into giving up more personal freedoms.

Isn't it time to raise that stupid terror alert again??[/quote]I don't see where any freedoms where given up. They tapped about 800 people out of how many in this country and if someone is contacting questionalbe people than I'm glad they are tapping them. I myself have given up no freedoms because I do not do anything for them to wast their time on me. Even if they did they could catch me doing some stupid post on here or listen to me blow off another phone solicitor.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote]
In essence, each alcoholic drink is .02 on your BAC...and takes just over an hour or so for that alcohol to leave your system. 6 drinks in a 2 hour period (.12 - .04 = .08) Meaning if you get caught, you're up DUI creek without a paddle.[/quote]

Not exactly. While they give you a sobreity test and deal with other issues, you're metabolising alcohol. The BAC test that's admissable in court is not the road side one because of the many flaws in it, it's the blood test. While I've heard of the road test having a bearing on the court, it's not the one they use for the solid number.

Also, another interesting fact. They can give you DUI for .06, .04, .02, .01. Whatever they want they can give you a DUI, .08 is simply a "suggested" barometer of drunkeness, not a hard law. Most of the time cops won't bother you until you're at least .08, but not to say it could be done.

All of the information comes from Virginia Alcohol Safety Action Program, which apparently if you get caught with possession of alcohol by a minor they put you in drunk driving courses, for whatever reason.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

Yeah, drinking laws are VERY subjective. Whatever mood the officer is in that night (or day for us heavy drinkers) can get you busted.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]I don't see where any freedoms where given up. They tapped about 800 people out of how many in this country and if someone is contacting questionalbe people than I'm glad they are tapping them. I myself have given up no freedoms because I do not do anything for them to wast their time on me. Even if they did they could catch me doing some stupid post on here or listen to me blow off another phone solicitor.[/quote]

Stuff like that is just the tip of the iceberg. Thanks to the Patriot Act big brother has easy access to more and more of our most sensitive, personal information.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

I have mixed feelings about that whole thing. Now don't think I'm taking a stand one way or the other, but even if our personal freedoms are violated, will we ever know unless we're planning on something illegal?

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Stuff like that is just the tip of the iceberg. Thanks to the Patriot Act big brother has easy access to more and more of our most sensitive, personal information.[/quote]I hear people say that it takes away some of our freedom but they can never tell whats in the act that does this. Its like someting they have heard and just are repeating. I'm sure there are things in the act that do but will they ever be used on 99% of Americans. I know that if someone walks into my office with a case of cash and wants to by some financial product I cannot take cash, new checks and some thing like that from the act. I just don't see the goverment with all this time on their hands to be looking into our daily lives. Now if your calling all over the middle east to people we expect are terr. I hope they do check you out.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

at least the russians got this right.they were willing to fight and die over losing personal freedoms were we as americans just seem like giving them away.matty is right on the button,this is only the beginning.all this coming from me,who has to be the biggest supporter of gun control that i know

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

its not the point,firstdown,of checking into everyday americans activity.its the point that if the government wants to,they can.i dont do anything illegal,but still should be able to enjoy my privacy

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Stuff like that is just the tip of the iceberg. Thanks to the Patriot Act big brother has easy access to more and more of our most sensitive, personal information.[/quote]

They do? You just admitted that you're talking with terrorists. Good job.

Try reading the ACTUAL Patriot Act instead of listening to CNN for your "facts".

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[IMG]http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7893/13119553qz.gif[/IMG]