Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]... and what has Al Saunders said about him.[/quote]

warren moon said his cfl team could compete against an nfl team. gibbs and champ and spurrier said taylor jacobs was one hell of a receiver. I said that the moon was on fire. just cause someone says something doesn't make it true. Opinions are not facts, though you seem to be treating them as such here.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=12thMan]But you or I seeing him isn't going to change what he's already proven in his career. We may form some opinion about him, but it won't get him in the starting line-up when Sept. rolls around.

Let me ask you this - Let's say this guys lights it up this pre-season. Then what will you think??[/quote]

Then I'll say he lit it up and rightfully say he is great or good.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]warren moon said his cfl team could compete against an nfl team. gibbs and champ and spurrier said taylor jacobs was one hell of a receiver. I said that the moon was on fire. just cause someone says something doesn't make it true. Opinions are not facts, though you seem to be treating them as such here.[/quote]

You're right, but that's all I have to go by - but I never said he was good. Just saying what he thinks of him.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

maybe its just a result of being too defensive, but saying collins could start opening day (and not due to injury) or disregarding the fact that he's done nothing in over ten years as an indication of his talent level... well, you're in a small boat. and that's fine, but using a throw away and pre-prompted saunders quote as evidence is worthless and will NOT help your credibility, as i've already pointed out. he was asked about his qb situation, he complimented everyone... if you think he'd actually insult his players or say "no comment" as a response, that'd be crazy.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]warren moon said his cfl team could compete against an nfl team. gibbs and champ and spurrier said taylor jacobs was one hell of a receiver. I said that the moon was on fire. just cause someone says something doesn't make it true. Opinions are not facts, though you seem to be treating them as such here.[/quote]

Honestly, if you said the moon was on fire I just wouldn't believe you - and just say oh really and think in my mind - coo coo ... coo coo ... coo coo. j/p
Now, if you were Al Saunders and said the moon was on fire I think I'd have to run outside and check for myself :)

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]maybe its just a result of being too defensive, but saying collins could start opening day (and not due to injury) or disregarding the fact that he's done nothing in over ten years as an indication of his talent level... well, you're in a small boat. and that's fine, but using a throw away and pre-prompted saunders quote as evidence is worthless and will NOT help your credibility, as i've already pointed out. he was asked about his qb situation, he complimented everyone... if you think he'd actually insult his players or say "no comment" as a response, that'd be crazy.[/quote]

Yeah but I think (and this is only what I believe) that coaches try to say as little as possible in certain situations - and by him saying something like this - it kind of means something. Like (and I know 2 different situations) brunell and gibbs last offseason- not totally the same - but to me the same feel.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

coaches have to have the player's back to not lose the locker room. he was specifically asked to talk about his QBs. what gibbs said was unscripted and not prompted.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]maybe its just a result of being too defensive, but saying collins could start opening day (and not due to injury) or disregarding the fact that he's done nothing in over ten years as an indication of his talent level... well, you're in a small boat. and that's fine, but using a throw away and pre-prompted saunders quote as evidence is worthless and will NOT help your credibility, as i've already pointed out. he was asked about his qb situation, he complimented everyone... if you think he'd actually insult his players or say "no comment" as a response, that'd be crazy.[/quote]

I don't remember him complimenting Brunell and last season I took gibbs's comments about brunell and threw those away too - I won't make the same mistake twice. And about the doing nothing part over ten years, again I am just going by what Saunders said.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]coaches have to have the player's back to not lose the locker room. he was specifically asked to talk about his QBs. what gibbs said was unscripted and not prompted.[/quote]

And this has got to be the point of disagreement. I am going with my gut and say that this wasn't what Saunders needed to say - he said it because he wanted to and believed it.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]I am just thinking outloud and wondering how Brunell will fit as the QB in Saunders's offense. When I think of Brunell, I think of a QB who uses his legs to get into a passing rhythm (sp). And when I think of a Saunders offense (using KC and STL to go by), I think of a true pocket QB that rarely needs mobility (for rhythm or otherwise).

Will Saunders be able to develop Brunell as a qb in his offense, considering how old Brunell is ? And I haven't heard much said about Brunell commenting on the Saunder's offense or vice versa.[/quote]I'm sure I've said this a few times already, but Brunell and Green, who came up as very different QBs, have become quite similar in their style of play.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, and even Trent Green come to mind.[/quote]Both Gannon and Green showed scouts that they could play well before they ever got to the situations where they achieved success. Warner was never really unsuccessful anywhere, getting his first oppertunity in St. Louis and having nothing but success. Although the media makes it out to sound like these guys came out of obscurity, NFL scouts are paid to find talent like those guys. When the Raiders got Gannon and the Chiefs got Green, they both fully expected the guys to lead their respective teams to victory. The Rams didn't go out and replace Warner after Green got hurt, so the same applies to him.

With Collins, hes been in the league for so long, and has never so much as gotten a sniff. That doesn't mean hes a bad QB, but it does keep him away from the Green, Gannon, Warner category.

The important point I'm making here is that none of the three successful QBs you mentioned had to win a QB battle to get the job that made them famous. Green and Gannon were signed as starters, and Warner was annointed as one after Green's injury.

Brunell is our QB.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=GTripp0012]The important point I'm making here is that none of the three successful QBs you mentioned had to win a QB battle to get the job that made them famous. Green and Gannon were signed as starters, and Warner was annointed as one after Green's injury.
[/quote]

I guess if the redskins just give Collins (or campbell) the starting spot and not make them have to win it. That would allow them to be successful. I don't know... it may work.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=GTripp0012]Both Gannon and Green showed scouts that they could play well before they ever got to the situations where they achieved success. Warner was never really unsuccessful anywhere, getting his first oppertunity in St. Louis and having nothing but success. Although the media makes it out to sound like these guys came out of obscurity, NFL scouts are paid to find talent like those guys. When the Raiders got Gannon and the Chiefs got Green, they both fully expected the guys to lead their respective teams to victory. [/quote]

Gannon was at best a journeyman when he first became successful at the age of 34 with the Raiders. Green had 1 year of good play with the redskins after 6 years in the league and guess who was new with STL when Green went there: Saunders. And who was there and became successful when Green was injured after becoming the starter: Warner. Saunders was no doubt part of both of their success in STL and then KC.

Sometimes, qbs are unlucky and don't get a good chance to show how good they really are. And disclaimer: not saying Collins is good. Just going by what Saunders is saying. Saunders has been around long enough to give him that respect. And I for one don't think he is blowing smoke with what he says with Collins.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins]You raised a very interesting question, "How will Brunnel fit in the new offense?". Brunnel had a comeback season last year and fizzed at the end. Why are we so optomistic that he will excel in the new offense? I'm worried that he might be the weak link in the offense. They have upgraded the playbook and the receiving corps but the field general is still the same with dimenished skills. Cambell is ready yet. I fear that Collins might see significant playing time next year. Especially if Brunnel reverts back to form.[/quote]
Fizzed at the end? He had one reciever, Peyton Manning would fiz at the end with one reciever. I never was a Brunnel fan but he did get my attention last year. He did more for us last year then any recent quarterback with limited resources. I'm anxious to see what he can do with this arsenal and just maybe with more targets he will stay in the pocket longer. If he doesnt and can't get the job done I hope Gibbs doesn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]Gannon was at best a journeyman when he first became successful at the age of 34 with the Raiders. Green had 1 year of good play with the redskins after 6 years in the league and guess who was new with STL when Green went there: Saunders. And who was there and became successful when Green was injured after becoming the starter: Warner. Saunders was no doubt part of both of their success in STL and then KC.

Sometimes, qbs are unlucky and don't get a good chance to show how good they really are. And disclaimer: not saying Collins is good. Just going by what Saunders is saying. Saunders has been around long enough to give him that respect. And I for one don't think he is blowing smoke with what he says with Collins.[/quote]

again, all of those guys (and warner) had 4-5 full years as starters by the time they hit 35, so they were good enough to prove they should start for multiple years. collins has had 1 ho-hum year as a starter to this point...

you still have yet to show a QB who started at 35+ after doing nothing and was successful. naming guys with 5 years of ACTUAL playing time (100+ games w/ pre/post season) and a super bowl before 35 isn't really much in the way of proof.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]I guess if the redskins just give Collins (or campbell) the starting spot and not make them have to win it. That would allow them to be successful. I don't know... it may work.[/quote]It's not about just getting the starting job. It the reasoning behind why they were signed to be the starter that is the same as the reasoning why they were successful.

A good job by the scouting department. Those guys could play, they just went unnoticed early in their careers.

With Collins, it just seems like no coach (Saunders included) wants to go into battle with him. Remember, Vermeil took the KC job so he could, among other reasons, make Trent Green his QB.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]you still have yet to show a QB who started at 35+ after doing nothing and was successful. naming guys with 5 years of ACTUAL playing time (100+ games w/ pre/post season) and a super bowl before 35 isn't really much in the way of proof.[/quote]George Blanda. I say if Collins can kick a 55 yarder, we should start him opening day.

At kicker.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath]And I'm not trying to start a qb controversy, but just noticing little things that people say (esp. what the coaches say).

Like gibbs saying during the last offseason that brunell still had something to contribute.[/QUOTE]



I think you are reading way too much in to a coaches comments in May, in this case Saunders. During the offseason the majority of comments made by coaches to the press about a players ability is geard to motivate that player.
Like last offseason Bugel trying to talk up dockery. He did that to try and fire him up.

What coaches say to the media in May about a player does not mean squat. That player could end up cut in the fall.
What will answer your 'thinking out loud questions' is the Qb depth chart right before regular seaon game #1.
That depth chart will speak louder than any forgetable interview in May.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=Defensewins]I think you are reading way too much in to a coaches comments in May, in this case Saunders. During the offseason the majority of comments made by coaches to the press about a players ability is geard to motivate that player.
Like last offseason Bugel trying to talk up dockery. He did that to try and fire him up.

What coaches say to the media in May about a player does not mean squat. That player could end up cut in the fall.
What will answer your 'thinking out loud questions' is the Qb depth chart right before regular seaon game #1.
That depth chart will speak louder than any forgetable interview in May.[/quote]

You're saying Saunders is trying to motivate a #2 qb on the depth charts. Why ?

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=GTripp0012]It's not about just getting the starting job. It the reasoning behind why they were signed to be the starter that is the same as the reasoning why they were successful.

A good job by the scouting department. Those guys could play, they just went unnoticed early in their careers.

With Collins, it just seems like no coach (Saunders included) wants to go into battle with him. Remember, Vermeil took the KC job so he could, among other reasons, make Trent Green his QB.[/quote]

Saunders never said he didn't want to go to battle with him. Actually he is saying the opposite.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

We're STILL talking about this a day later?! :doh:

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]again, all of those guys (and warner) had 4-5 full years as starters by the time they hit 35, so they were good enough to prove they should start for multiple years. collins has had 1 ho-hum year as a starter to this point...

you still have yet to show a QB who started at 35+ after doing nothing and was successful. naming guys with 5 years of ACTUAL playing time (100+ games w/ pre/post season) and a super bowl before 35 isn't really much in the way of proof.[/quote]

Yeah, gannon started a whole bunch of games before he got to the raiders when he was almost 34, but he didn't accomplish anything. He was a journeyman by definition before he succeeded with the raiders.

Did you know he had a one year stint with the redskins ?

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]Yeah, gannon started a whole bunch of games before he got to the raiders when he was almost 34, but he didn't accomplish anything. He was a journeyman by definition before he succeeded with the raiders.

Did you know he had a one year stint with the redskins ?[/quote]

Actually he was with the Skins for two seasons

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034"]Profile[/URL]

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]We're STILL talking about this a day later?! :doh:[/quote]

I mean, this isn't even thread worthy is it?? Collins??

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]We're STILL talking about this a day later?! :doh:[/quote]

You know what, I don't think we're getting anywhere. I feel like I'm chasing my tail.

There's just 2 schools of thought here.

My 2 points here are:
(1) See someone play and then grade him. Don't use stats, playing time whatever before watching someone play. Others use stats and playing time first to judge a player, then watch him play. I use stats to back up what I see.
And..
(2) I take someone's word for what it is if that person has earned my respect, namely Saunders. Until he lies or shows otherwise, he has earned my respect of believing his words. I believe him and don't think he is exagerating or any of that. That's my opinion until he disproves me.

That's where I'm coming from.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Actually he was with the Skins for two seasons

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034"]Profile[/URL][/quote]

Sorry, gannon [B][U]started[/U][/B] a few games one season for the redskins.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[QUOTE=warriorzpath]You're saying Saunders is trying to motivate a #2 qb on the depth charts. Why ?[/QUOTE]

Are you saying Collins doesn't deserve some props? Are you the judge of who the coaches should compliment?
Todd Collins left a city and a team that he has been with for years to come here with Saunders and help get our QB's ready in this new system, and compete for a back up job.
Saunders is thanking him for coming to help.
Is that such a stretch for you?
Other wise you can believe that Collins is the best QB technician that Saunders he has ever coached. LOL

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=Defensewins]Are you saying Collins doesn't deserve some props? Are you the judge of who the coaches should compliment?
Todd Collins left a city and a team that he has been with for years to come here with Saunders and help get our QB's ready in this new system, and compete for a back up job.
Saunders is thanking him for coming to help.
Is that such a stretch for you?
Other wise you can believe that Collins is the best QB technician that Saunders he has ever coached. LOL[/quote]

No, see: previous post (not the one with gannon). That's what I'm saying.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]I feel like I'm chasing my tail.

See thread in parking lot. 15 reasons to have a tail!!

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=12thMan]
See thread in parking lot. 15 reasons to have a tail!![/quote]

Yeah I saw that thread already. And it's funny - I was just thinking about that thread.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=12thMan]
See thread in parking lot. 15 reasons to have a tail!![/quote]

I don't think a tail would help me in this case tho :)

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]I don't think a tail would help me in this case tho :)[/quote]

Keep fightin' bro!

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=12thMan]Keep fightin' bro![/quote]

Yup that's why my name's warriorzpath - have to stand up for what I really believe in :) Try to talk the talk and walk the walk (down the warriorzpath).

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~hblackard/jedi.gif[/IMG]

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection][IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~hblackard/jedi.gif[/IMG][/quote]

The old lady is just pooped from her wild cinco de mayo party.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

gannon started a bunch of games and proved he was capable BEFORE 35. collins hasn't even proven he can start at all, therefore that comparision isn't valid. you keep repeating yourself, but i still haven't seen a single example of a QB turning it on past 35.

and you've TOTALLY misrepresented that quote in your mind. I SAW the interview it was taken from. saunders was asked about his qbs, and he talked about them. [B]THAT'S IT.[/B] He didn't come out of left field to start harping on how great his QBs are, he ssimply anwered a direct question about them when asked. You're repeating something completely out of context and representing it as something that it's not.

if you don't have new info, please let this die. This is getting as ridiculous as the CFL thread or the timmy hasslebeck is our true answer at QB and we're set for life crap that came up a few years ago. collins is a scrub, and will be until he retires. maybe he'll win a couple games, but its obvious there's a reason he's never started more than one full season.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]gannon started a bunch of games and proved he was capable BEFORE 35. collins hasn't even proven he can start at all, therefore that comparision isn't valid. you keep repeating yourself, but i still haven't seen a single example of a QB turning it on past 35.

and you've TOTALLY misrepresented that quote in your mind. I SAW the interview it was taken from. saunders was asked about his qbs, and he talked about them. [B]THAT'S IT.[/B] He didn't come out of left field to start harping on how great his QBs are, he ssimply anwered a direct question about them when asked. You're repeating something completely out of context and representing it as something that it's not.

if you don't have new info, please let this die. This is getting as ridiculous as the CFL thread or the timmy hasslebeck is our true answer at QB and we're set for life crap that came up a few years ago. collins is a scrub, and will be until he retires. maybe he'll win a couple games, but its obvious there's a reason he's never started more than one full season.[/quote]

I think it was going to die until you revived it. I have posted the basic points of my argument in post #105. If you disagree, then that's your opinion - you don't need to convince me of anything.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

yet you absolutely need to have the last word :P
nice.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=That Guy]yet you absolutely need to have the last word :P
nice.[/quote]

Pot calling the kettle black.

Re: Brunell in Saunders's offense ?
 

[quote=warriorzpath]Pot calling the kettle black.[/quote]

how ironic, eh? :P this was dead last night, yet you felt the need to respond specifically to my post with retread information you already posted 3 times for some reason. so, i'm sorry (actually i'm not) but i'd have to disagree with you yet again.