Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

what if they found WMDs and they had US Army stamped on them, from when we helped them in the 80s?

not saying i think it's true, but an interesting thought.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;276914]what if they found WMDs and they had US Army stamped on them, from when we helped them in the 80s?

not saying i think it's true, but an interesting thought.[/QUOTE]

I actually thought that something more ironic and tragic would happen after we invaded Iraq, namely that some explosives from Iraq would be used in a terrorist attack against the U.S. at home or somewhere outside of Iraq. A friend of mine came back from Iraq, where he served in the Army in an EOD unit, and told me that the place was littered with millions of tons of military-grade explosives that couldn't be secured by our forces. You can buy an RPG for $100 on the black market there. Crazy stuff.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I honestly don't think we've had a decent president in over a decade...I'm so disillusioned about the whole process, but as far as Iran goes, we don't have the man power to go in there right now without a draft. We would have to use nuclear weapons in an open war. I hope the administration considers this. Lets also think back over the past 20 to 30 years. As much as I hate to say it, we chose sides (Isreal) and now we have to pay the consequences. I'm in no way condoning the actions of radical islamic nations, just merely pointing out that we have a hand in our own problems. We also supplied weapons to Iraq, and have a history of exagurating intelligence for our own purposes (Vietnam anyone? Spanish American War?). If Iranians are coming over the border...they need to be accounted for. Its too late to give up on Iraq, but I wish we had just left well enough alone in the region. The best way to deal with the problem in my opinion is to find a legitimate alternative fuel source so we wouldn't be dependent on those scum bags.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace;277116]I honestly don't think we've had a decent president in over a decade...I'm so disillusioned about the whole process, but as far as Iran goes, we don't have the man power to go in there right now without a draft. We would have to use nuclear weapons in an open war. I hope the administration considers this. Lets also think back over the past 20 to 30 years. As much as I hate to say it, we chose sides (Isreal) and now we have to pay the consequences. I'm in no way condoning the actions of radical islamic nations, just merely pointing out that we have a hand in our own problems. We also supplied weapons to Iraq, and have a history of exagurating intelligence for our own purposes (Vietnam anyone? Spanish American War?). If Iranians are coming over the border...they need to be accounted for. Its too late to give up on Iraq, but I wish we had just left well enough alone in the region. The best way to deal with the problem in my opinion is to find a legitimate alternative fuel source so we wouldn't be dependent on those scum bags.[/quote]

You didn't think Clinton was a good Prez?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;276857]I would also like to know what the Dems. are doing to fix the problem?[/quote]

This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't think I can vote democratic in the '08 elections (I'm relatively moderate, tend to be a swing voter).

The Democrats are so busy saying "I told you so" to President Bush, so busy saying you should have done this, you should have done that. So busy that they haven't been able to come up with a solution worth a crap.

I am a forward thinker. I don't care how we got in this friggin mess. I care how we're going to get out of it. If we can learn lessons from our past mistakes, great. But we still need a plan going forward. Eff all the political bickering; if you're not coming up with a solution, you're part of the effing problem.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277120]You didn't think Clinton was a good Prez?[/quote]


no, granted, he didn't actively mess things up like some would suggest Bush did, but I still wouldn't call him a good president. In my opinion he took credit for things that weren't entirely his doing. Trust me though, I'm not a Republican, although I would call myself conservative.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Schneed10;277122]This is one of the biggest reasons why I don't think I can vote democratic in the '08 elections (I'm relatively moderate, tend to be a swing voter).

The Democrats are so busy saying "I told you so" to President Bush, so busy saying you should have done this, you should have done that. So busy that they haven't been able to come up with a solution worth a crap.

I am a forward thinker. I don't care how we got in this friggin mess. I care how we're going to get out of it. If we can learn lessons from our past mistakes, great. But we still need a plan going forward. Eff all the political bickering; if you're not coming up with a solution, you're part of the effing problem.[/quote]


I think we can greatly end the political bickering by getting rid of career politicians. Once there's no re-election, people won't spend all their time trying to say what people want to hear. TERM LIMITS!!!!!

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace;277123]no, granted, he didn't actively mess things up like some would suggest Bush did, but I still wouldn't call him a good president. In my opinion he took credit for things that weren't entirely his doing. Trust me though, I'm not a Republican, although I would call myself conservative.[/quote]


Well, I don't think all successes or failures of any presidency are entirely on that president. However, there are some markers, if you will, that we can always point to and say what they did well or bad.

During Clinton's presidency, for instance, he inheirted a huge deficit, turned it into a surplus, and we're back to running a deficit now.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;277127]Well, I don't think all successes or failures of any presidency are entirely on that president. However, there are some markers, if you will, that we can always point to and say what they did well or bad.

During Clinton's presidency, for instance, he inheirted a huge deficit, turned it into a surplus, and we're back to running a deficit now.[/QUOTE]

Yes he inherited a recovering econmoy on the cusp of a period of growth unseen before and watched as tax coffers exploded with money that allowed him to end up positive. Bush got a waning economy and decided to cut taxes as well and now we have war that costs a lot of money and less taxes both by natural occurence and tax cuts. I like tax cuts but they should be met with spending cuts also. I don't give either prez any credit for performance on economy as they have very little if any effect on it. It is one the greatest myths in this country in terms of politics. Our economy runs itself. MAYBE tax cuts help a tiny bit to spur growth but that is questionable. Clinton didn't do anything that could be considered effecting the economy. Not a knock on him but just an observation.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=FRPLG;277132]Yes he inherited a recovering econmoy on the cusp of a period of growth unseen before and watched as tax coffers exploded with money that allowed him to end up positive. Bush got a waning economy and decided to cut taxes as well and now we have war that costs a lot of money and less taxes both by natural occurence and tax cuts. I like tax cuts but they should be met with spending cuts also. I don't give either prez any credit for performance on economy as they have very little if any effect on it. It is one the greatest myths in this country in terms of politics. Our economy runs itself. MAYBE tax cuts help a tiny bit to spur growth but that is questionable. Clinton didn't do anything that could be considered effecting the economy. Not a knock on him but just an observation.[/quote]

great point...many presidents try to take credit for the economy, when in reality it runs itself...and is cyclical

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277127]Well, I don't think all successes or failures of any presidency are entirely on that president. However, there are some markers, if you will, that we can always point to and say what they did well or bad.

During Clinton's presidency, for instance, he inheirted a huge deficit, turned it into a surplus, and we're back to running a deficit now.[/quote] Yes but congress passes the spending bills not the president but he was president at that time so credit does go to him. He was also president when 600 died from a heat wave in Chicago but unlike Bush and Katrina he never got any heat from the press for not doing anything.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Clinton is like Ramsey and Arrington....he simply won't disappear from thewarpath.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

you are what you are. the economy, the middle east, and the deficit are among the things that history will look favorable towards bill Clinton's tenure. a huge deficit, a disaster in the middle east, and a downward spiraling economy will headline Bush's 2 terms. and the idiotic statement comparing 600 dead in Chicago, when the entire country was being brutalized by extreme heat, to the fiasco in New Orleans doesn't really measure as a good comparison

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277139]you are what you are. the economy, the middle east, and the deficit are among the things that history will look favorable towards bill Clinton's tenure. a huge deficit, a disaster in the middle east, and a downward spiraling economy will headline Bush's 2 terms. and the idiotic statement comparing 600 dead in Chicago, when the entire country was being brutalized by extreme heat, to the fiasco in New Orleans doesn't really measure as a good comparison[/quote]

Exactly.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I'm not sure Kerry would have done a better job though...it truly was a Giant Douche vs. A Turd sandwich. As a result, I and many others, voted for neither. Although I will say, I think Kerry was smarter than Bush.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277139]you are what you are. the economy, the middle east, and the deficit are among the things that history will look favorable towards bill Clinton's tenure. a huge deficit, a disaster in the middle east, and a downward spiraling economy will headline Bush's 2 terms. and the idiotic statement comparing 600 dead in Chicago, when the entire country was being brutalized by extreme heat, to the fiasco in New Orleans doesn't really measure as a good comparison[/quote]
Middle east he ignored, did we forget about our sailors who were attacked and killed in port, the two embassy buildings bombed, and the first twin towers bombing by terrorist. Then we could mention the time that Bin Laden was offered to Clinton by the Sudaness which he turned down. Thats favorable for Clinton?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Maybe Bush should have ignored the middle east too.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277151]Maybe Bush should have ignored the middle east too.[/quote]
What so we could keep letting these people attack us? That was done once.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277154]What so we could keep letting these people attack us? That was done once.[/quote]

What people? And since when were they in Iraq?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Maybe WE should have ignored them in the 40's and 50's. I still maintain though, that the best solution to all of this is to kick our dependence on oil...so they wouldn't have us by the short hairs anymore

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace;277156]Maybe WE should have ignored them in the 40's and 50's. I still maintain though, that the best solution to all of this is to kick our dependence on oil...so they wouldn't have us by the short hairs anymore[/quote]

That's a good start, no doubt. But big business is tightly knitted with politics and vice versa, so I honestly don't see that happening in our generation.

It could, but unlikely.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277155]What people? And since when were they in Iraq?[/quote]
He said ignore the middle east.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277157]That's a good start, no doubt. But big business is tightly knitted with politics and vice versa, so I honestly don't see that happening in our generation.

It could, but unlikely.[/quote]

This goes back to my other solution. Put term limits on senate and house seats and big business's grasp on politics would loosen considerably...


AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace in 08

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277149]Middle east he ignored, did we forget about our sailors who were attacked and killed in port, the two embassy buildings bombed, and the first twin towers bombing by terrorist. Then we could mention the time that Bin Laden was offered to Clinton by the Sudaness which he turned down. Thats favorable for Clinton?[/quote]
bill clinton knew what the definition of politics was. sometimes you have to swallow some losses in one place to accomplish something later on down the road. and saying bin laden was offered to clinton is great hindsight. and maybe regan should have took better care of who he sold illegal arms to? with clinton in office, the middle east was about as stable as its probably ever going to be. and this president seems to think strongarming our opposition will get them to lay down and obey. i guess he is starting to see otherwise.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace;277160]This goes back to my other solution. Put term limits on senate and house seats and big business's grasp on politics would loosen considerably...


AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace in 08[/quote]


hahaha...nice.

dude, who's on your ticket?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277161]bill clinton knew what the definition of politics was. sometimes you have to swallow some losses in one place to accomplish something later on down the road. and saying bin laden was offered to clinton is great hindsight. and maybe regan should have took better care of who he sold illegal arms to? with clinton in office, the middle east was about as stable as its probably ever going to be. and this president seems to think strongarming our opposition will get them to lay down and obey. i guess he is starting to see otherwise.[/quote]

It's interesting you say that about Clinton. I think some still see him as a political force.

If Hillary wins, some have suggested Bill would make a good Secretary of State in her cabinet.

I definitely think he would have handled the Iraq situation differently.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I don't have a running mate...you want in?

AWNB and 12thMan..better Redskins today, A better America tomorrow!!!!

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=AlvinWalton'sNeckBrace;277165]I don't have a running mate...you want in?

AWNB and 12thMan..better Redskins today, A better America tomorrow!!!![/quote]

I'm starting to like you AWNB...this idea is growing on me.

Oh, and..please, call me 12th. :)

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277157]That's a good start, no doubt. But big business is tightly knitted with politics and vice versa, so I honestly don't see that happening in our generation.

It could, but unlikely.[/quote]I think most people would agree with that and I'm not sure that big business has stood in the way as one said. I think the problem is that we have purchased gas so cheap for so long there was no demand or alternative fuels at a higher cost. The cars are more expensive and the fuel is more expensive which one is the consumer going to buy?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277161]bill clinton knew what the definition of politics was. sometimes you have to swallow some losses in one place to accomplish something later on down the road. and saying bin laden was offered to clinton is great hindsight. and maybe regan should have took better care of who he sold illegal arms to? with clinton in office, the middle east was about as stable as its probably ever going to be. and this president seems to think strongarming our opposition will get them to lay down and obey. i guess he is starting to see otherwise.[/quote]How is the offering of Bin Ladin hine site he was a known leader of the terrorist world who said he would kill us?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277161]bill clinton knew what the definition of politics was. sometimes you have to swallow some losses in one place to accomplish something later on down the road. and saying bin laden was offered to clinton is great hindsight. and maybe regan should have took better care of who he sold illegal arms to? with clinton in office, the middle east was about as stable as its probably ever going to be. and this president seems to think strongarming our opposition will get them to lay down and obey. i guess he is starting to see otherwise.[/quote]

Youve got to be kidding me right? because he chose to ignore the situation during his tenure and the media never portrayed it by no means made the middle east stable. After failing to deal with the actions of Bush sr. Iraq was hung out to dry by the clinton administration. The guy was a good politician he just chose not to intervene in pretty much anything whatsoever, IE rwanda... People hate us just because we are a world power, everyone wants it both ways, to use rwanda as example, everyone got pissed at us that we didnt go in, however had we decided to go in and intervene everyone wouldve been telling us to stick to our own business, theres going to be naysayers for whatever argument there is and thats a fact. You can look at all of this in history too, funny how it repeats itself, if we have a policy of neutrality and isolationism people think we need to get involved, IE WW1, but if we have a policy of intervention and playing "world police" people hate us too, IE, vietnam (just an example dont ream me for that). Everyone has 20/20 hindsight, the hard part is trying to estimate the future. Im not bashing clinton or any administration im simply trying to get across the point that you can never make everyone happy.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Hail2theskins;277171]Youve got to be kidding me right? because he chose to ignore the situation during his tenure and the media never portrayed it by no means made the middle east stable. After failing to deal with the actions of Bush sr. Iraq was hung out to dry by the clinton administration. The guy was a good politician he just chose not to intervene in pretty much anything whatsoever, IE rwanda... People hate us just because we are a world power, everyone wants it both ways, to use rwanda as example, everyone got pissed at us that we didnt go in, however had we decided to go in and intervene everyone wouldve been telling us to stick to our own business, theres going to be naysayers for whatever argument there is and thats a fact. You can look at all of this in history too, funny how it repeats itself, if we have a policy of neutrality and isolationism people think we need to get involved, IE WW1, but if we have a policy of intervention and playing "world police" people hate us too, IE, vietnam (just an example dont ream me for that). Everyone has 20/20 hindsight, the hard part is trying to estimate the future. Im not bashing clinton or any administration im simply trying to get across the point that you can never make everyone happy.[/quote]
I remember he intervened but I can't remember where. The movie was made Black Hawk Down.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277168]How is the offering of Bin Ladin hine site he was a known leader of the terrorist world who said he would kill us?[/quote]
wasn't bin laden part of al quaeda that the united states armed to try and take out Afghanistan? i wonder who was president then?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277184]I remember he intervened but I can't remember where. The movie was made Black Hawk Down.[/quote]
somalia. he tried to straighten out a mess that was very similar to iraq. he knew that those people didnt want the help. they were bred to kill. we packed up and left. probably the best solution for iraq, too

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

and i think the main reason that the world hates us is because we are that naive to think that we can force our lifestyle on anyone we so choose. to me, unless a direct cry for help comes from any country, we take care of those that WANT our help

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;277189]and i think the main reason that the world hates us is because we are that naive to think that we can force our lifestyle on anyone we so choose. to me, unless a direct cry for help comes from any country, we take care of those that WANT our help[/QUOTE]

The world hates us (and oftentimes loves) us for a lot of reasons, depending on who you ask. Some hate us because of our foriegn policy, others for our social attitudes and domestic politics (which many in the West view as overly conservative and many in the Middle East view as overly permissive), and others hate us because we are the world's sole superpower and are therefore to blame for everything that goes wrong in the world (see the speeches of every nutjob foreign dictator who uses as a scapegoat for everything).

As for forcing our lifestyle on others......we've done it before and it's worked (e.g., Germany, Japan, South Korea, Haiti, Bosnia) and we've also done it before when it failed (e.g., Vietnam, Somalia, and now Iraq). I don't believe the cry that you can NEVER force democracy on others.

I also believe very strongly that people do in fact (usually) yearn for democracy. When society is embroiled in chaos, people want order and dictators or ayatollahs and their militias can provide that. When society is not suffering from internal military conflict, they want democracy. It doesn't matter what you race or country's history is, everyone wants democracy after the guns have quieted.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

When does football start again??????

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=jbcjr14;277207]When does football start again??????[/QUOTE]

Seriously. As much as I love anything related to history or politics, it sucks having to talk about Iraq as opposed to the Cover 2 etc.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;277188]somalia. he tried to straighten out a mess that was very similar to iraq. he knew that those people didnt want the help. they were bred to kill. we packed up and left. probably the best solution for iraq, too[/quote]
I'd say Somalia was more like Afghanastan. Afghanastan was taken over by Al Queda and Somalia was taken over by drug dealers.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

probably the bottom line is that neither wanted our help