Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Right. That's what I'm thinking is that basically a doctor can deem whether you are safe or not to have a gun. Sure, that might seem like a small step, but wouldn't that have stopped what happened at VT?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

The perfect person to have that kind of control is someone who has dedicated his/her life to healing others.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I'm not sure if you're being facetious (I'm drinking now since it's my last night until the wedding TO drink), but if you're not, I would totally agree.

Why would it be so bad for gun dealers to have to submit a request with a doctor of some kind stating that person A wants to buy a gun. Say they the doctor says they can't and they're perfectly healthy mentally, is that REALLY an outrage? I'll take a hundred mentally healthy people not getting a gun rather than ONE psycho getting one.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;299030]I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.[/QUOTE]


Well, once again Schneed, we completely disagree. Though I have to give you credit -- at least you admit that the 2nd amendment must be repealled in order to achieve the goal of the total criminalization of owning firearms.

A philosophical question for you though: Do you believe you have the inherent individual right to defend yourself?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I lean more towards Schneed's view even though I wouldn't want to see it totally repealed. I know that people say, "Well, they'd go find a gun anyway." Seriously, I think it would be a little worse before it got better but then after that, I think that people who even SEE someone with a gun, would consider them a threat. Sure, Nice Korean Guy comes into the store and buys a gun, then he goes nuts. I think if guns are made totally illegal, that makes them far more inaccessible than you'd think.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Criminals will alway's find a way to get a gun, it's just that simple, revoking the right to own guns will only hurt the innocent, and put society as a whole in much more danger to the whims of our goverment, the reason we have the right to own guns is the founding fathers realized that the greed of goverment knows no bounds, and the people of that goverment must be able to defend against a totalatering gov't. The more people that own guns the safer we really are, I believe some people should have to take a coarse on how to properly use one if they have never been around them, but we will never stop these whacko's but we can't limit thier ability to go on a rampage like this guy did. Safety through strength!

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=offiss;299247]Criminals will alway's find a way to get a gun, it's just that simple, revoking the right to own guns will only hurt the innocent, and put society as a whole in much more danger to the whims of our goverment, the reason we have the right to own guns is the founding fathers realized that the greed of goverment knows no bounds, and the people of that goverment must be able to defend against a totalatering gov't. The more people that own guns the safer we really are, I believe some people should have to take a coarse on how to properly use one if they have never been around them, but we will never stop these whacko's but we can't limit thier ability to go on a rampage like this guy did. Safety through strength![/QUOTE]

Is a .22 really going to stop an Apache gunship and an Abrams tank? I think the idea was sound when passed, but it no longer achieves its intended goal. If you think we need to be armed to prevent against government oppression, then you should lobby to make it legal to buy anti-tank rockets, surface to air missiles, anti-ship missiles, etc.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;299235]I'm not sure if you're being facetious (I'm drinking now since it's my last night until the wedding TO drink), but if you're not, I would totally agree.

Why would it be so bad for gun dealers to have to submit a request with a doctor of some kind stating that person A wants to buy a gun. Say they the doctor says they can't and they're perfectly healthy mentally, is that REALLY an outrage? I'll take a hundred mentally healthy people not getting a gun rather than ONE psycho getting one.[/quote]
It's not outrageous. It's perfectly logical. Applicants for carry concealed permits have to submit to a mental health check automatically. They can be asked about any prior mental health history as well. Some states also require a letter from the applicant's physician. Why in the world don't we require applicants who wish to purchase a firearm to be expected to submit to the same standard? You have to buy a gun before you can carry it.

If the privacy folks are so against us obtaining mental records, then at least require these applicants to produce a letter from their doctor saying they are competent enough to possess a firearm.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Suppose that the VT murderer was a U.S. citizen and devout follower of Bin Laden. How would the anti-gun control/pro-Patriot Act crowd react?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299253]Suppose that the VT murderer was a U.S. citizen and devout follower of Bin Laden. How would the anti-gun control/pro-Patriot Act crowd react?[/quote]
He probably would have been on a list to begin with. So they probably would have been aware of him. I can't talk about the list. If I did, I would have to kill you. ;)

If anything I think people would be even more outraged and the case for allowing those students to carry concealed on campus would be stronger.

We actually had a person like you described run over students at a NC college with his car not long ago. We can't ban cars. People are going to find ways to commit violence if they really want to.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=offiss;299247]Criminals will alway's find a way to get a gun, it's just that simple, revoking the right to own guns will only hurt the innocent, and put society as a whole in much more danger to the whims of our goverment, the reason we have the right to own guns is the founding fathers realized that the greed of goverment knows no bounds, and the people of that goverment must be able to defend against a totalatering gov't. The more people that own guns the safer we really are, I believe some people should have to take a coarse on how to properly use one if they have never been around them, but we will never stop these whacko's but we can't limit thier ability to go on a rampage like this guy did. Safety through strength![/quote]


This is the assumption that a person is already "wacko" before he purchases a gun. There are plenty of incidents in which a normal person loses it and grabs his/her gun to exact immediate revenge (road rage, adultery, alcohol-exacerbated argument, etc). That's the main problem with guns: they provide an irrevocable and immediate end to a situation that, with time, could keep some people alive with a bruised ego as the only long standing injury.

On the flip side, if all guns are illegal then any current criminal can pretty much burglarize a home, murder the owner with relative impunity.

I say weapons manufacturers need to start developing more nonlethal yet quick incapacitating weapons to help an individual defend himself, his family and his property.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;299242]I lean more towards Schneed's view even though I wouldn't want to see it totally repealed. I know that people say, "Well, they'd go find a gun anyway." Seriously, I think it would be a little worse before it got better but then after that, I think that people who even SEE someone with a gun, would consider them a threat. Sure, Nice Korean Guy comes into the store and buys a gun, then he goes nuts. I think if guns are made totally illegal, that makes them far more inaccessible than you'd think.[/QUOTE]


How many guns are in the United States today? Gun control advocates always point to a number -- whatever that number is -- and say that it's too many. So if that's the case, and there are hundreds of millions of handguns and rifles already in the population, what happens to those weapons once they are made illegal? They go into the black market.

Now, you have the problem with guns just like you do illegal drugs. Is marijuana illegal? How difficult is it to obtain? Not very.

That horse is already out of the barn. To place any type of restriction on the ownership of firearms would be a fruitless exercise. And you only make the situation worse.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299249][B]Is a .22 really going to stop an Apache gunship and an Abrams tank? [/B] I think the idea was sound when passed, but it no longer achieves its intended goal. If you think we need to be armed to prevent against government oppression, then you should lobby to make it legal to buy anti-tank rockets, surface to air missiles, anti-ship missiles, etc.[/QUOTE]

Maybe not the tank or the Apache, but it's operator.

The rice farmers of Vietnam did a pretty good job against the F-4 Phantom and the falling bombs of B-52s.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

For all those against the private ownership of guns, are you glad the students at VT weren't allowed to carry firearms for self-defense?

What happened on Monday is Exhibit A in the experiment that is gun control. Law abiding individuals are denied the ability to have guns in a certain area -- crazed lunatic breaks that rule, has a gun anyway and kills scores of people.

Now, simply carry that same example to a larger scope. Why would this scenario be any different in a society which outlaws gun ownership?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Beems, I wouldn't use the VT incident as a bassi for saying that gun control laws are too strict. This guy bought his gun legally. That sorta kills the argument that gun control laws are keeping weapons out of the wrong hands.

I still cannot understand how laypeople say gun laws need to be loosened when policemen overwhelmingly think the opposite. I'm not saying people with a "loosen gun control laws" don't have interesting or valid arguments, but I haven't heard any reason why I shouldn't listen to people whose business it is to keep the streets safe.

As for Vietnam, I can assure you that not many .22s brought down F-4s and B-52s flying at 50,000 feet. We lost most of our aircrew to SAMs and AAA.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299290]Beems, I wouldn't use the VT incident as a bassi for saying that gun control laws are too strict. This guy bought his gun legally. That sorta kills the argument that gun control laws are keeping weapons out of the wrong hands.

I still cannot understand how laypeople say gun laws need to be loosened when policemen overwhelmingly think the opposite. I'm not saying people with a "loosen gun control laws" don't have interesting or valid arguments, but I haven't heard any reason why I shouldn't listen to people whose business it is to keep the streets safe.

As for Vietnam, I can assure you that not many .22s brought down F-4s and B-52s flying at 50,000 feet. We lost most of our aircrew to SAMs and AAA.[/QUOTE]


Someone mentioned earlier that the police groups have an "agenda". It is important to remember that big groups like associaions of police chiefs and such ALWAYS have agendas. Sometimes the agendas are totally good, sometimes totally bad but mostly they're somewhere in the middle. I don't know why they support stronger gun control per se but I do know that I am not sure I give them much more credence than anyone else. I don't see where their opinion on something like this is of more value. We're not talking about an issue where it requires special training and education to understand the ins and outs. It is a pretty transparent issue that ordinary citizens can easily be just as informed about.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

FRPLG, I would just assume that police officers, who have experience dealing with people who lose it and have a gun readily accessible, people who have defended themselves from criminals with the guns, who travel to gun accident scenes, etc. would have a unique perspective on the gun issue.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

First, I think we have to clearly define our positions. I am not making the argument that gun control laws are keeping guns out of the wrong hands. In fact, my position is just the opposite. Gun control laws do not apply to those who break the law and use firearms to harm other people.

The VT argument does work because it represents exactly the parameters of the classic society in which restrictions on the ownership of firearms are placed upon the law abiding public.

The campus of Virginia Tech does not permit the possession of firearms -- just like some cities in the United States and around the world have similar restrictions. Since firearms will always be available on the black market no matter what legislative steps have been taken to eliminate them, those that have no intention of causing harm or breaking the law will never have firearms. They follow the law -- therefore they won't have firearms.

But a law-breaker, intent on violating the rights of those he knows to be unarmed and defenseless, is not affected by the Virginia Tech policy on firearms (just like the perpetrators in cities where gun control is very strict).

This guy did buy his guns legally, and brought them into a place where the laws say that you may not have a gun under any circumstances, for any reason. You can use this scenario in the gun control argument whether the perpetrator purchased the guns legally or on the black market. You will have the same outcome either way -- the unarmed victim will be at the complete mercy of an armed criminal.

I'd be willing to bet that the police would find their jobs much easier and safe if they could burst through the doors of unsuspecting citizens in the middle of the night without the burden of a search warrant or probable cause. Does that mean we should bow to their demands of tighter gun control?

As for Vietnam, my point was to illustrate how a determined populace whose only aim is to defend their homeland and protect their individual rights, even while armed with the most basic weaponry available can upend the most powerful, technologically advanced army the world has ever known.

And this country has far more powerful weaponry than just .22s in the general public. If poor, backward rice farmers can repel the United States of America, how would America's troops fare against their own families, hometowns, and countrymen?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=offiss;299247]Criminals will alway's find a way to get a gun, it's just that simple, revoking the right to own guns will only hurt the innocent, and put society as a whole in much more danger to the whims of our goverment, the reason we have the right to own guns is the founding fathers realized that the greed of goverment knows no bounds, and the people of that goverment must be able to defend against a totalatering gov't. The more people that own guns the safer we really are, I believe some people should have to take a coarse on how to properly use one if they have never been around them, but we will never stop these whacko's but we can't limit thier ability to go on a rampage like this guy did. Safety through strength![/quote]

nice post. i agree with you 100%.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

A lot of people (e.g., Beems) have made a lot of interesting points. However, I still cannot believe we are talking about the need to bear arms in the event we need to mount an insurgency against our government. I am not trying to belittle anyone's arguments, but that one seems a little "out there" for me.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299320]A lot of people (e.g., Beems) have made a lot of interesting points. However, I still cannot believe we are talking about the need to bear arms in the event we need to mount an insurgency against our government. I am not trying to belittle anyone's arguments, but that one seems a little "out there" for me.[/quote]

true it is "out there" a bit but you never know.
i think it's silly that we are even discussing taking our guns away just because some freak went on a killing spree and a hand gun was his weapon of choice.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299320]A lot of people (e.g., Beems) have made a lot of interesting points. However, I still cannot believe we are talking about the need to bear arms in the event we need to mount an insurgency against our government. I am not trying to belittle anyone's arguments, but that one seems a little "out there" for me.[/QUOTE]

Armed citizens have overthrown oppressive governments and toppled despotic regimes throughout history.

In fact, we are witnessing that right now in Iraq, where poor but determined people with primitive roadside bombs are quickly becoming enough to send the most powerful military force in the world into retreat. Maybe they're not doing it in actual numbers, or with classic battlefield strategy -- but in a test of wills.

It's like Ho Chi Minh said of the French in 1952:

"If ever the tiger pauses, the elephant will impale him on his mighty tusks. But the tiger will not pause, and the elephant will die of exhaustion and loss of blood."

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I don't disagree that it's done Beems. My only point was that it's kinda strange to be talking about our government this way.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

Well, short of sounding like I live in a cabin in Wyoming working on my manifesto, our founding fathers discussed that same topic concerning the very government they themselves formed.

Governments made up of men are always capable of evil. Not saying we are at that point yet, but the 2nd amendment was instituted so that the citizens would always have the capacity to overthrow their government.

Thomas Jefferson said that the tree of liberty must be freshened from time to time with the blood of tyrants. That concept was never meant to be so foreign.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

All I know is that I better not be asked for a permission slip from a pshchiatrist to obtain my firearm from Big Bubba Loaded Clip down at the Tackle Box.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=angryssg;299341]All I know is that I better not be asked for a permission slip from a pshchiatrist to obtain my firearm from Big Bubba Loaded Clip down at the Tackle Box.[/quote]
With a name like Big Bubba Loaded Clip, I bet he also gives you a can of snuff and a six pack of Milwaukee Best as a complimentary gift with your handgun purchase.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Lady Brave;299353]With a name like Big Bubba Loaded Clip, I bet he also gives you a can of snuff and a six pack of Milwaukee Best as a complimentary gift with your handgun purchase.[/quote]

It was intended to sound like that for obvius reasons.

[SIZE=1][I]The characters described in the above commentary are ficticious and do not reflect the opinions of Angry SSG inc.[/I][/SIZE]

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

I know. Just trying to lighten my own mood after the week I've had.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Lady Brave;299357]I know. Just trying to lighten my own mood after the week I've had.[/quote]

Im not saying it wasn't funny. That was one of two responses that I was looking for. If I wait long enough, Someone else will post the other one.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

why are you looking to argue, or just having alittle fun?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

We were just joking a little. It's all good. :)

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

lady brave, you seem to posting alot more lately. you change jobs or something?

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299249]Is a .22 really going to stop an Apache gunship and an Abrams tank? I think the idea was sound when passed, but it no longer achieves its intended goal. If you think we need to be armed to prevent against government oppression, then you should lobby to make it legal to buy anti-tank rockets, surface to air missiles, anti-ship missiles, etc.[/quote]

No, but Iraq is doing a pretty good imitation right now with a "resistence" effort. That type of effort is obviously, effective against a VASTLY superior force. I read it costs the average rebel about $400 to equip himself. Same article stated that the average American soldier about 14K to equip.

Incidently, I have seen video footage of two Afghan guys launch a couple of Black Market Surface to air missles (cost $1000 each) drop two 25m MIG's.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=dmek25;299423]lady brave, you seem to posting alot more lately. you change jobs or something?[/quote]
No, still have the same job. I wasn't posting much because the months leading up to Easter are really busy for me. Most of my time was spent working on a lot of drama and music stuff for church.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

that's actually refreshing in this particular thread Lady B.
That's what I'm doing as well.
Working on some choir, and drama stuff, when I'm not modifying auto weapons.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;299328]I don't disagree that it's done Beems. My only point was that it's kinda strange to be talking about our government this way.[/QUOTE]

Why would you find it strange? The founding fathers who structured our laws and gov't. didn't find it strange, in fact they understood the reality far to well, and that is why the people have the right to bare arms. If you can't fight back it makes for an easy takeover, but if you can fight back it's a major deterent for a gov't to order it's military to attack it's countrymen when the entire military has friends and family amoungst them. Our entire gov't. structure has been designed to protect the people of this country from a gov't takeover, as is not the case for many countries all over the world.

You greatly underestimate the evil, and greed for power in this world. In which we are not islolated from in our country.



Adolf Hitler disarming and exterminating the Jews is a classic example of the horrors that can happen when we fail to realize the potential of evil manifested in man. In fact, more than a hundred and seventy million (170,000,000) people were exterminated by their own governments during the twentieth century. The one thing all these atrocities had in common was "gun control." Clearly those that wish to disarm people are far from being within the will of God and in fact are anti-Christ. I highly recommend purchasing “innocents betrayed” at JPFO for a history of how evil and disarming citizens goes hand in hand. After you see this documentary you’ll never allow yourself or family to be disarmed by so-called “gun control” laws.

Do not be deceived, the spirit behind the gun-control effort is allied with outright evil and history proves this point with perfect clarity.


DISARM THE PEOPLE FIRST

The principle of first disarming the people before full scale oppression of the people, was seen first hand by Reverend Wesley Millen who, as a missionary, witnessed the communist take over of Asia. In his lectures he would explain how in the first 90 days the communists were so benevolent, humanitarian and helpful, and at the same time laboured vigorously to confiscate all weapons. The people were told peace had arrived and they would no longer have need of weapons. Once the people were disarmed Reverend Millen said, "Then at the end of ninety days we learned the difference between theoretical communism and Bolshevik terror."

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[quote=offiss;299703]Why would you find it strange? The founding fathers who structured our laws and gov't. didn't find it strange, in fact they understood the reality far to well, and that is why the people have the right to bare arms. If you can't fight back it makes for an easy takeover, but if you can fight back it's a major deterent for a gov't to order it's military to attack it's countrymen when the entire military has friends and family amoungst them. Our entire gov't. structure has been designed to protect the people of this country from a gov't takeover, as is not the case for many countries all over the world.

You greatly underestimate the evil, and greed for power in this world. In which we are not islolated from in our country.

Adolf Hitler disarming and exterminating the Jews is a classic example of the horrors that can happen when we fail to realize the potential of evil manifested in man. In fact, more than a hundred and seventy million (170,000,000) people were exterminated by their own governments during the twentieth century. The one thing all these atrocities had in common was "gun control." Clearly those that wish to disarm people are far from being within the will of God and in fact are anti-Christ. I highly recommend purchasing “innocents betrayed” at JPFO for a history of how evil and disarming citizens goes hand in hand. After you see this documentary you’ll never allow yourself or family to be disarmed by so-called “gun control” laws.

Do not be deceived, the spirit behind the gun-control effort is allied with outright evil and history proves this point with perfect clarity.


DISARM THE PEOPLE FIRST

The principle of first disarming the people before full scale oppression of the people, was seen first hand by Reverend Wesley Millen who, as a missionary, witnessed the communist take over of Asia. In his lectures he would explain how in the first 90 days the communists were so benevolent, humanitarian and helpful, and at the same time laboured vigorously to confiscate all weapons. The people were told peace had arrived and they would no longer have need of weapons. Once the people were disarmed Reverend Millen said, "Then at the end of ninety days we learned the difference between theoretical communism and Bolshevik terror."[/quote]

I think you may have read into his comments more deeply than what was said or intended.

That being said, you make some good points.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

The Founding Fathers didn't find a lot of things strange that are indeed wacko (e.g., slavery). Many of them were great, but not infallible. I'm certainly not about to sign up to join some militia group and I trust our government far more than I do the guy who stockpiles arms in his basement in the event he needs to wage a jihad against our government.

I also do not find references to other countries' experiences with dictators and communists particularly good indicators of what we should do. History is nice and all, but knowledge of historical events is only useful if you contextualize them.

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

the one thing that bothers me most about our constitution is you would be hard pressed to find any 200+ year old piece of paper that hasn't been amended. the 2nd amendment( the right to bear arms) is misinterpreted and needs to be changed. its that simple

Re: Gun Restrictions and Your Rights
 

[QUOTE=offiss;299703]Why would you find it strange? The founding fathers who structured our laws and gov't. didn't find it strange, in fact they understood the reality far to well, and that is why the people have the right to bare arms. If you can't fight back it makes for an easy takeover, but if you can fight back it's a major deterent for a gov't to order it's military to attack it's countrymen when the entire military has friends and family amoungst them. Our entire gov't. structure has been designed to protect the people of this country from a gov't takeover, as is not the case for many countries all over the world.

You greatly underestimate the evil, and greed for power in this world. In which we are not islolated from in our country.



Adolf Hitler disarming and exterminating the Jews is a classic example of the horrors that can happen when we fail to realize the potential of evil manifested in man. In fact, more than a hundred and seventy million (170,000,000) people were exterminated by their own governments during the twentieth century. The one thing all these atrocities had in common was "gun control." Clearly those that wish to disarm people are far from being within the will of God and in fact are anti-Christ. I highly recommend purchasing “innocents betrayed” at JPFO for a history of how evil and disarming citizens goes hand in hand. After you see this documentary you’ll never allow yourself or family to be disarmed by so-called “gun control” laws.

Do not be deceived, the spirit behind the gun-control effort is allied with outright evil and history proves this point with perfect clarity.


DISARM THE PEOPLE FIRST

The principle of first disarming the people before full scale oppression of the people, was seen first hand by Reverend Wesley Millen who, as a missionary, witnessed the communist take over of Asia. In his lectures he would explain how in the first 90 days the communists were so benevolent, humanitarian and helpful, and at the same time laboured vigorously to confiscate all weapons. The people were told peace had arrived and they would no longer have need of weapons. Once the people were disarmed Reverend Millen said, "Then at the end of ninety days we learned the difference between theoretical communism and Bolshevik terror."[/QUOTE]

Woah, hold on a minute here. Did you just say that people who are for gun control are anti-Christ? I can't say I agree there.

I don't know that it's fair or right to go back to our founding fathers everytime as the basis for an argument. For one thing, the right to bear arms doesn't even really mean the same thing anymore because the arms (or weapons) aren't even the same anymore. There is a pretty big difference between giving everyone the right to a musket and the right to an AK.