Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=70Chip;320193]No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

I will say that I think Gibbs was/(is?) too cautious as a play caller at times, but he makes up for it with meticulous preparation. His practices are like games.

At any rate, it will be interesting to see how many points San Diego scores this season. I think a lot.[/quote]I think lacking in the areas of team management and motivation, assuming that good coaching requires those things (which isnt a given IMO), would also hurt his value as an offensive coordinator. I mean we are quick to throw blame on him for the lacking disipline of those teams, but what about the blame of the other coaches, or more accurately, the blame of the undisciplined players themselves? Leadership can come from anywhere, and while the HC is generally synonmous with it, hes no more responsible for it than the Running back or the Offensive Coordinator.

I personally don't think he was a great coordinator either because he was deficent in those aforementioned areas. I think he's given a lot of credit for coaching untapped talent when in reality he was just coaching "about to be tapped" talent (Gore, Dallas three headed monster, etc.). Funny thing is, as a head coach, I think the reverse perception has hurt him. People perceive that teams like the 2000 Redskins and 2005 were talented, but in reality those were some pretty awful football teams.

Coaching doesn't have a huge effect on the outcome of the game, IMO, but Turner was every bit as bad as a Coodinator as he was as a HC. The question is was that all that bad? And I really don't have the answer. But I can assure you that it doesnt make all that much of a difference.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320196]Coaching doesn't have a huge effect on the outcome of the game, IMO, but Turner was every bit as bad as a Coodinator as he was as a HC. The question is was that all that bad? And I really don't have the answer. But I can assure you that it doesnt make all that much of a difference.[/quote]

Tripp, I know your shtick is that you generally disagree with conventional wisdom, but I bet 90+% of the league agrees that Norv Turner is an above average to very good offensive coordinator. He's managed some very prolific offenses over the course of his career, and he never seems short of career opportunities.

The reason he wasn't very successful as a head coach is because a head coach does at least twice the work of an offensive coordinator in conventional coaching scenarios. He wasn't able to handle the other aspects of managing a football team, and his leadership skills were sub par at best.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Southpaw;320200]Tripp, I know your shtick is that you generally disagree with conventional wisdom, but I bet 90+% of the league agrees that Norv Turner is an above average to very good offensive coordinator. He's managed some very prolific offenses over the course of his career, and he never seems short of career opportunities.

The reason he wasn't very successful as a head coach is because a head coach does at least twice the work of an offensive coordinator in conventional coaching scenarios. He wasn't able to handle the other aspects of managing a football team, and his leadership skills were sub par at best.[/quote]So then you would agree that the more work Turner was asked to do, the more it became apparent that he probably was not the best man for the job. Wouldn't it make sense then that he probably wasn't the best man for the OC job either, but found success behind some very talented players?

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;320188]So Matty, who do you hate more -- Spurrier or Norv?[/quote]

That's easy, Spurrier.

Norv at least got the team to the playoffs once and even won a playoff game.

Spurrier had no business coaching in the NFL. None.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320186]This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)[/quote]

I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;320193]No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with you but that's why I continue to think San Diego will be a good situation for him. There are enough giants in that locker room who are solid team guys that they will police themselves. Turner will just have to focus on exploiting the considerable weapons that they have and staying out of the GM's way.

As I've said before, Norv has been given a final shot that most people would kill for. He has all the tools. His team is somehow slipping under the radar after a 14-2 season because of some big free agent signings around the league.

Now if the team internally disolves or underachieves we will be able to say definitively that he is an awful coach.

But I agree with Gtripp on one thing - too much is often made of coaching, and this cult of genius surrounding succesful coaches can be absurd. The bottom line is do you have players, and the Chargers do in spades.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

The NFL is a coaches league probably more than any other sports league. Do they get too much credit at times and too much blame at others? Sure. But solid coaching sure will take you a lot further the majority of the time than shoddy coaching will.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;320218]The NFL is a coaches league probably more than any other sports league. Do they get too much credit at times and too much blame at others? Sure. But solid coaching sure will take you a lot further the majority of the time than shoddy coaching will.[/QUOTE]

That's true, coaches in the NFL are more important than any other sport. But coaches are the difference between one great team beating another great team. You still need guys who can go out and make plays if you want to be in that position to win, and Turner has got that now. If you examine the coaches who have come up the last couple years I would argue pretty much to the man that their success has had as much to do with front office decisions as in game strategy, meaning they have been given the personnel to be succesful.

Anyway, I didn't wake up this morning and get my coffee expecting to find myself defending Norv Turner. I'm just saying let's give him one more chance before we write the book on him.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;320214]I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.[/quote]

Agreed. It's kind of like Monte Kiffin in Tampa. The guy has been a top D coordinator for years, and he knows that's his niche. Norv has been a great offensive play caller and developer of QBs, but he's a poor disciplinarian and no good with the defensive side of the ball. I think Gregg Williams may be the same kind of coach as well. His track record as THE guy is poor, but (aside from '06) his defenses have always been very solid. Other guys who come to mind are Ray Rhodes, Dave Campo, Marty Mornenwheg, Dom Capers... all good coordinators but questionable head coaches.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;320218]The NFL is a coaches league probably more than any other sports league. Do they get too much credit at times and too much blame at others? Sure. But solid coaching sure will take you a lot further the majority of the time than shoddy coaching will.[/quote]I would agree with this. There are 24 starting positions and free substitution, and you absolutely have to be on top of that to win games. Thing is, it doesn't seem to be a very [I]difficult[/I] job at all. Since Wade Philips in Buffalo, there has not really been a coach who cost his team multiple games in a season (or even one). Flutie v Johnson was unique situation in that the coach was wrong, and everyone in the world knew it. But every coaching "blunder" since then has been either:

a) relatively insignificant, OR
b) due to conventional wisdom

Either way, the average to below average coach doesn't make his (significant) decisions any differently in the long run than the good coach, so the difference in the output is insignificant to put it lightly.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it doesn't affect wins and losses often if ever.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GMScud;320223]Agreed. It's kind of like Monte Kiffin in Tampa. The guy has been a top D coordinator for years, and he knows that's his niche. Norv has been a great offensive play caller and developer of QBs, but he's a poor disciplinarian and no good with the defensive side of the ball. I think Gregg Williams may be the same kind of coach as well. His track record as THE guy is poor, but (aside from '06) his defenses have always been very solid. Other guys who come to mind are Ray Rhodes, Dave Campo, Marty Mornenwheg, Dom Capers... all good coordinators but questionable head coaches.[/quote]Ok, I just want to know what qualities that these coaches had that allowed them to succeed as coodinators but also made them fail as head coaches. Poor disciplinarian seems to be a common flaw, but if we take this as granted, how do we explain success as an coodinator. It seems that these players would have to be quite disciplined to have success. But if we've already labeled these coaches as ones who lack the ability to enstill the discipline necessary for success, how to explain their relative success as a coodinator?

This is very circular in nature, and I'm a bit surprised that others don't see it as so.

And I'm not picking on GMScud or anyone else in particular. I'm just wondering why the perception of a man as head coach and a coodinator can be so vastly different when the roles are ever so similar. Saying that "Norv Turner isn't a great football coach, so I think he's a bit better suited to be a coordinator" is one thing, but the prevailing wisdom so far is that hes a super duper wonderful coordinator and a HC without a clue. This isn't consistent with logic, and to me at least doesn't make a lick of sense.

How can all the negitive qualities that cause one to dismiss Turner as a head coach be ignored when evaluating him as a coordinator?

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

If Bill Cowher comes back in 2008, I hope he replaces Tom Coughlin not Joe Gibbs.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

There are many qualities necessary for a head coach that aren't necessary for a coordinator

-Delegation of responsibilites. The offensive coordinator may call the plays but it's the head coach (usually) who dictates who calls the plays and makes a change if necessary

-Who to play

-Handling internal turmoil/trouble players. You think anyone cares how Norm Chow will handle PacMan? Or how Danny Smith would have handled the leak last year?

-Setting/Overseeing the overall game plan (offense, defense, and special teams)

And on and on

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320234]There are many qualities necessary for a head coach that aren't necessary for a coordinator

-Delegation of responsibilites. The offensive coordinator may call the plays but it's the head coach (usually) who dictates who calls the plays and makes a change if necessary

-Who to play

-Handling internal turmoil/trouble players. You think anyone cares how Norm Chow will handle PacMan? Or how Danny Smith would have handled the leak last year?

-Setting/Overseeing the overall game plan (offense, defense, and special teams)

And on and on[/quote]In the case of Turner though,

As a Coordinator, Turner is responsible for who to play on his side of the ball. He is also responsible for handling internal issues on his side of the ball, and obviously the gameplan.

Now I see what you are saying, and as an OC, the only power that Norv can delegate is that which is delegated to him. But this, I think, only helps my point. If the perception of Norv of an OC is that hes very proficient, and the truth is that he isn't, then the Coaches around him and most directly, the players can create offensive success in spite of him. And in my opinion, that's what happened.

Although "in spite" is probably coming off too strong. Rather "he deserves much, much less credit for the offensive success of his units" is more accurate.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320230]Ok, I just want to know what qualities that these coaches had that allowed them to succeed as coodinators but also made them fail as head coaches. Poor disciplinarian seems to be a common flaw, but if we take this as granted, how do we explain success as an coodinator. It seems that these players would have to be quite disciplined to have success. But if we've already labeled these coaches as ones who lack the ability to enstill the discipline necessary for success, how to explain their relative success as a coodinator?

This is very circular in nature, and I'm a bit surprised that others don't see it as so.

And I'm not picking on GMScud or anyone else in particular. I'm just wondering why the perception of a man as head coach and a coodinator can be so vastly different when the roles are ever so similar. Saying that "Norv Turner isn't a great football coach, so I think he's a bit better suited to be a coordinator" is one thing, but the prevailing wisdom so far is that hes a super duper wonderful coordinator and a HC without a clue. This isn't consistent with logic, and to me at least doesn't make a lick of sense.

How can all the negitive qualities that cause one to dismiss Turner as a head coach be ignored when evaluating him as a coordinator?[/quote]

I guess it's tough to explain. As the head coach, YOU'RE the guy. The buck stops with you and you alone as far as the success of the team. You have to motivate an entire coaching staff, as well as offense, defense, and special teams. Maybe these great coordinators/poor HC's aren't as effective under that kind of pressure. Maybe they have spent so much of their career focused on one side of the ball that they can't effectively manage a team as a whole.

Look at Brad Childress last year in Minnesota. He's been a defense coach his entire career. And their D was very stout in his first year as a head coach. (#1 against the run). But their offense stunk out loud. I don't think discipline/motivation was his problem, but certainly his lack of offensive coaching experience was. The same with Gregg Williams as Buffalo's head coach. The team was disciplined and good defensively, and had an offense that was near the bottom of the league. On the flip side, Norv has put together great offenses, but his teams lacked discipline and strong defense.

I don't know an exact answer. That's what I can come up with off the top of my head.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GMScud;320240]I guess it's tough to explain. As the head coach, YOU'RE the guy. The buck stops with you and you alone as far as the success of the team. You have to motivate an entire coaching staff, as well as offense, defense, and special teams. Maybe these great coordinators/poor HC's aren't as effective under that kind of pressure. Maybe they have spent so much of their career focused on one side of the ball that they can't effectively manage a team as a whole.

Look at Brad Childress last year in Minnesota. He's been a defense coach his entire career. And their D was very stout in his first year as a head coach. (#1 against the run). But their offense stunk out loud. I don't think discipline/motivation was his problem, but certainly his lack of offensive coaching experience was. The same with Gregg Williams as Buffalo's head coach. The team was disciplined and good defensively, and had an offense that was near the bottom of the league. On the flip side, Norv has put together great offenses, but his teams lacked discipline and strong defense.

I don't know an exact answer. That's what I can come up with off the top of my head.[/quote]Childress was the O coodinator in Philly though.

I think a lot of great head coaches are very hands off on one side of the ball or the other. That's just part of delagating responsibility.

Ultimately this entire debate fizzles down to the fact that good players with good chemistry will produce good results, and a coach can't do much to improve that or stand in their way. Likewise bad players with bad chemistry will produce bad results. Nothing a coach can do.

Norv had some pretty solid offensive talent as a coordinator, and not so much as a head coach, thus is his legacy.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320243]Childress was the O coodinator in Philly though.

I think a lot of great head coaches are very hands off on one side of the ball or the other. That's just part of delagating responsibility.

Ultimately this entire debate fizzles down to the fact that good players with good chemistry will produce good results, and a coach can't do much to improve that or stand in their way. Likewise bad players with bad chemistry will produce bad results. Nothing a coach can do.

Norv had some pretty solid offensive talent as a coordinator, and not so much as a head coach, thus is his legacy.[/quote]

For some reason I was thinking Jim Johnson. Duh. My bad. Been up since 5am. A little out of it I guess. But the other examples I used are right on.

But I think a great head coach can galvanize a team and help foster strong chemistry. Granted some situations are beyond repair, and great talent level does have a lot to do with winning. But we're using Norv as an example, and he has never been known as a locker room kind of guy.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

I can see Cowher here in '08. A losing season will be enough to send Gibbs packing. He came in here fully expecting to turn things around, and this is his banner year to do it. If the D is another joke this season, and the O is suspect, he will bolt, as it will mean rebuilding will probably take another 2-3 seasons. Time which Gibbs did not expect to be coaching. If he can't turn it around this season, he will be wishing he would have just stuck with NASCAR. If the D is lousy, then do you really think Williams is going to be the HC? Same goes for Saunders. The Danny will want a proven commodity at HC. That is his MO. He fired Turner, got Marty, then gambles with Spurrier, then went to another HOF coach in Gibbs.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;319984]I only see him here if Gibbs steps down after the 2007 season. (well that is obvious.)[/quote]

Hey quake, a little concerned about you have you seen post #92............?

Whats this msearthquake2689 shit with that ugly ass giants lid......anything we need to know? No coming out of the closet party is there?

Gibbs is going nowhere unless this season is a belly flop, WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY! Bill Cowler is not coming to DC.....let this poor thread die a quick death.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;320253]Hey quake, a little concerned about you have you seen post #92............?

Whats this msearthquake2689 shit with that ugly ass giants lid......anything we need to know? No coming out of the closet party is there?

Gibbs is going nowhere unless this season is a belly flop, WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY! Bill Cowler is not coming to DC.....let this poor thread die a quick death.[/quote]


No just my girlfriend, she is a giants fan that's all.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;320259]No just my girlfriend, she is a giants fan that's all.[/QUOTE]

Can't wait for her to stumble upon some of your other "parking lot" threads

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320262]Can't wait for her to stumble upon some of your other "parking lot" threads[/quote]


maybe we should just leave that alone for now[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG]

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;320263]maybe we should just leave that alone for now[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

She has a right to know :)

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320264]She has a right to know :)[/quote]

Uh oh...

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;320264]She has a right to know :)[/quote]


While this is true. But not right now.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon7.gif[/IMG]

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;320263]maybe we should just leave that alone for now[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon10.gif[/IMG][/quote]


Oh we will quake, after the IM to msquake....about your conduct......? man the lid is messin up the site, come on don't you have a pair of ****

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;320272]Oh we will quake, after the IM to msquake....about your conduct......? man the lid is messin up the site, come on don't you have a pair of ****[/quote]

This could get ugly.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GMScud;320277]This could get ugly.[/quote]

Too bad he doesnt have a webcam! I would pay to see this!

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

A Giant fan not wanting Gibbs to leave? That is something new.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=angryssg;320283]Too bad he doesnt have a webcam! I would pay to see this![/quote]

quake getting beat down brutally........by a msquake, "AKA" giants fan? I think I'm gonna puke

Now that's pay-per-view material. good luck quake....nice not knowing you, we might send flowers OR NOT.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

I am still here so I am good for now

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;320332]I am still here so I am good for now[/QUOTE]



NOT FOR LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[QUOTE=GusFrerotte;320306]A Giant fan not wanting Gibbs to leave? That is something new.[/QUOTE]


I didnt say that I said I would rather have Cowher replace Coughlin and not go to the Redskins.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320191]Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?[/quote]

Norv is one of the best OC's in the NFL. No question about that. He knows NFL offense. But he IS NOT a leader of men.

In order for him to be a good HC he is going to need a veteran team with self starters. He is in the perfect situation now in SD. But he could not coach a team like Tenn and get them to 8-8 like Jeff Fischer did.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Ms.Earthquake2689;320510]I didnt say that I said I would rather have Cowher replace Coughlin and not go to the Redskins.[/quote]

Cranky Coughlin is wearing thin on everybody. I have never once seen that a-hole smile. Not once. You can tell the players can't stand his ass. You will have new coach next year. No question about that. But I doubt it's going to be Cowher. Where ever he goes he is going to want full control of the football operation. And that's not going to happen in NY. But it could happen in Cleveland or Tampa Bay.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;320523]Norv is one of the best OC's in the NFL. [B]No question about that.[/B] He knows NFL offense. But he IS NOT a leader of men.

In order for him to be a good HC he is going to need a veteran team with self starters. He is in the perfect situation now in SD. But he could not coach a team like Tenn and get them to 8-8 like Jeff Fischer did.[/quote]I very clearly AM questioning it.

If his team got 3 defensive TDs against a team like Jacksonville, I'm sure he could have won 8 games with Tennessee. That was a relatively fortunate 8 wins.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;320533]I very clearly AM questioning it.[/quote]

So in your mind he must be an all around crappy coach then?

He must be doing something right to keep finding work in the NFL.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

Jesus, even Earthquake has a girlfriend. I'm going to go stick my head in the oven now. No funeral, please.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;320536]So in your mind he must be an all around crappy coach then?

He must be doing something right to keep finding work in the NFL.[/quote]I think evaluating a coach is really difficult because theres no real result of their work on the field.

I don't think Norv is a good HC or a good coordinator, but I think it can get a lot worse in both cases. That's my official position for now.

All you need to have work in the NFL is one guy out of 32 willing to hire you. The willingness to follow direction and cheapness of service are two very valuble attribtues for a coach from the owners perspective.

Re: Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?
 

[quote=70Chip;320540]Jesus, even Earthquake has a girlfriend. I'm going to go stick my head in the oven now. No funeral, please.[/quote]


thanks i guess. dont forget to grease your head to avoid sticking[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon7.gif[/IMG]