Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;324410]Champ Bailey, Trent Green and Frank Wychek would be my top three.[/quote]

How about this "What If" scenario. Keep Trent Green, which means that you keep the #11 overall pick in the 1999 Draft (because you wouldn't give it to Minnesota for Brad Johnson). So in the 1999 Draft the Skins pick both Champ Bailey and Javon Kearse (who did have 16 sacks his rookie year). Redskins defense solidified and given a solid pass rush with the addition of Kearse and the offense has a great year with Stephen Davis busting out and Westbrook and Connell going over 1,000 yards receiving. With the Defense solidified the Redskins would defeat Tampa Bay (we should have beaten them anyway!!!) and shut down the greatest show on turf (which might never have been if the Skins kept Green) to make it to the Super Bowl where they defeat the Titans (or some other team given that the Titans would not have gotten Kearse).

So, basically, losing Trent Green meant losing the Super Bowl in 1999! (Tortured logic, I know. I was hoping someone better than Kearse was there to make my scenario really seem plausible but that 1999 draft was really bad with the exception of McNabb, James, Holt, Bailey, and Kearse in his first few years). When you really start thinking about it things would get really weird because if the Skins ponied up for Green then the Rams would have signed a different QB (probably) who might not have gotten hurt and would never have given Kurt Warner a chance, etc. etc. As one last side note, I've always thought that if Andy Heck hadn't gotten hurt in '99 the Skins would have beaten the Bucs. Everyone remembers the bad snap, but it was Simeon Rice beating Kip Vickers all night long that lost that game in my opinion.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SmootSmack;324086]Well, according to another thread here some would bring him back still[/quote]

I would let him retire here.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;325392]How about this "What If" scenario. Keep Trent Green, which means that you keep the #11 overall pick in the 1999 Draft (because you wouldn't give it to Minnesota for Brad Johnson). So in the 1999 Draft the Skins pick both Champ Bailey and Javon Kearse (who did have 16 sacks his rookie year). Redskins defense solidified and given a solid pass rush with the addition of Kearse and the offense has a great year with Stephen Davis busting out and Westbrook and Connell going over 1,000 yards receiving. With the Defense solidified the Redskins would defeat Tampa Bay (we should have beaten them anyway!!!) and shut down the greatest show on turf (which might never have been if the Skins kept Green) to make it to the Super Bowl where they defeat the Titans (or some other team given that the Titans would not have gotten Kearse).

So, basically, losing Trent Green meant losing the Super Bowl in 1999! (Tortured logic, I know. I was hoping someone better than Kearse was there to make my scenario really seem plausible but that 1999 draft was really bad with the exception of McNabb, James, Holt, Bailey, and Kearse in his first few years). When you really start thinking about it things would get really weird because if the Skins ponied up for Green then the Rams would have signed a different QB (probably) who might not have gotten hurt and would never have given Kurt Warner a chance, etc. etc. As one last side note, I've always thought that if Andy Heck hadn't gotten hurt in '99 the Skins would have beaten the Bucs. Everyone remembers the bad snap, but it was Simeon Rice beating Kip Vickers all night long that lost that game in my opinion.[/quote]

You may be on to something. However, you are expecting a lot out of our front office...

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[QUOTE=Grim21Reaper;325403]I would let him retire here.[/QUOTE]

I'd sign him but only so he can retire as a Redskin (if that's what he wants) I don't want him putting on the uniform, being in the locker room, or taking the field.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SmootSmack;325407]I'd sign him but only so he can retire as a Redskin (if that's what he wants) I don't want him putting on the uniform, being in the locker room, or taking the field.[/quote]

He couldn't take Lindsay's spot?

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;325411]He couldn't take Lindsay's spot?[/quote]

I admit if he is not ready to retire he would add outstanding depth. If he wants to retire, then let him retire. Should Lavar choose to compete then I say let him compete. IMO he is still one of the most explosive LB's out there bad knee or not.

Just to support my opininon is the fact that most people are supportive of Shawn Springs being our most dominant CB regardless of injury. Why is LaVar any different? Lavar is younger at this point.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=angryssg;325413]I admit if he is not ready to retire he would add outstanding depth. If he wants to retire, then let him retire. Should Lavar choose to compete then I say let him compete. IMO he is still one of the most explosive LB's out there bad knee or not.

Just to support my opininon is the fact that most people are supportive of Shawn Springs being our most dominant CB regardless of injury. Why is LaVar any different? Lavar is younger at this point.[/quote]

Because Lavar never fully recovered from the multiple knee injuries and then he blew out his achilles. Now he has a deep cut and a broken arm. Not to mention it took him 2 weeks or more to get out of the hospital.

Springs was never fully healthy but he could still check Steve Smith. I will take that all day long.

How are they similar, again?

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;325416]Because Lavar never fully recovered from the multiple knee injuries and then he blew out his achilles. Now he has a deep cut and a broken arm. Not to mention it took him 2 weeks or more to get out of the hospital.

Springs was never fully healthy but he could still check Steve Smith. I will take that all day long.

How are they similar, again?[/quote]

Because when LaVar actually played at the end of 2005 he was making plays and he actually revitalized a defense that was struggling at that point in the year. Just in case you didn't remember.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=angryssg;325420]Because when LaVar actually played at the end of 2005 he was making plays and he actually revitalized a defense that was struggling at that point in the year. Just in case you didn't remember.[/quote]

So let me get this straight. At this point in their careers, you would rather have Lavar Arrington?

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;325438]So let me get this straight. At this point in their careers, you would rather have Lavar Arrington?[/quote]


No, no, no, no, I am merely saying that if we had a chance to get him let him compete for a starting job. If he doesnt get the job then at least we know that he adds great depth.


Call me crazy, but I value Smoot and Rogers over Springs any day of the week. That is just my opinion though, and I know that it is not a popular one.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;325440]No, no, no, no, I am merely saying that if we had a chance to get him let him compete for a starting job. If he doesnt get the job then at least we know that he adds great depth.


Call me crazy, but I value Smoot and Rogers over Springs any day of the week. That is just my opinion though, and I know that it is not a popular one.[/QUOTE]


I completely agree with the with the Rogers, Smoot statement.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Buster;325229]What about Timmy Smith? He definitely stepped up in a big game for us and held the SB rushing record for a long time.

He ended up getting injured before even playing a full season with us and retired in 1990 as a COWBOY with 6 receptions and no carries.

Then, probably because of his time in Dallas, he became a coke-head.

What a waste of talent. Sure, he can't help injuries, but his whole life went down the toilet too.[/quote]

My soon to be 4 year old could have run for 200 yards that day.

Timmy Smith was a victim of a bad agent. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[QUOTE=Grim21Reaper;325595]My soon to be 4 year old could have run for 200 yards that day.

Timmy Smith was a victim of a bad agent. Nothing more, nothing less.[/QUOTE]

Bad agent? How do you figure?

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SmootSmack;325623]Bad agent? How do you figure?[/quote]

At the end of the '87 season his agent pushed for him to be the highest paid RB in the league. The Skins told them both to "take 5" and next thing you know he has a nasal drip problem and no job.

He still has the Super Bowl record for yards. Hail to the Redskins!

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[QUOTE=Grim21Reaper;325636]At the end of the '87 season his agent pushed for him to be the highest paid RB in the league. The Skins told them both to "take 5" and next thing you know he has a nasal drip problem and no job.

He still has the Super Bowl record for yards. Hail to the Redskins![/QUOTE]

I don't remember that. Though it couldn't have been at the end of the '87 season because Smith played in '98 for us as well.

I do remember Gibbs saying TS was sort of lazy and his head was never really in the game...except once, Super Bowl XXII

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SmootSmack;325637]I don't remember that. Though it couldn't have been at the end of the '87 season because Smith played in '98 for us as well.

I do remember Gibbs saying TS was sort of lazy and his head was never really in the game...except once, Super Bowl XXII[/quote]
He got his head in the game because Doug Williams told him if he didn't get the job done, he would basically kick his ass. lol

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=SmootSmack;325637]I don't remember that. Though it couldn't have been at the end of the '87 season because Smith played in '98 for us as well.

I do remember Gibbs saying TS was sort of lazy and his head was never really in the game...except once, Super Bowl XXII[/quote]

I don't see any stats for 98 anywhere. He was toast after 3 years.

He still has the best memory in the history of football.... (well except for Doug Williams)

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[QUOTE=Grim21Reaper;325639]I don't see any stats for 98 anywhere. He was toast after 3 years.

He still has the best memory in the history of football.... (well except for Doug Williams)[/QUOTE]

Sorry meant 1988, not 98

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

Timmy Smith was done in by the buffet table. NFL Films did a "comeback" piece on him in 1991 or so and he looked like "Big" from "Rob and Big".

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;325595]My soon to be 4 year old could have run for 200 yards that day.

Timmy Smith was a victim of a bad agent. Nothing more, nothing less.[/quote]

So the agent gave him the cocaine? Uh huh...

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Buster;326119]So the agent gave him the cocaine? Uh huh...[/quote]
No, but he did make him believe he was the second coming of Walter Payton. He gave him very shitty advice.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=gibbsisgod;326123][B]No, but he did make him believe he was the second coming of Walter Payton[/B]. He gave him very shitty advice.[/quote]

That's an agent's job...to inflate his clients' values and get them paid more than they're worth.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;324071]Have to go with my nickname. Gus had a cannon arm and did pull the team to around .500 with a relatively weak WR corp and an old man in Terry Allen at RB. IF you gave Gus the OL and the WR corp we have now, the 90's would have been nice to us. Next would be Patrick. Sorry, he got screwed and should have been given more time to prove himself. We really could have probably made the playoffs with him at QB in '04. He would have thrown more pics than Brunell, but I guarantee he would have thrown for way more TD's at the same time. Our terrific D would have nullified a lot of his picks. This season with JC at the helm will really tell us if parting with Ramsey was such a great idea. As of right now, not too many folks outside of the Redskin Nation think too highly of him(JC).[/quote]

You gotta be kidding me. Gus is a career back-up. You can get by with him for a few weeks. But not 16 games!!

Two reasons why Ramsey is not, and will never be a good NFL QB.

1. He is not an accurate enough passer to be a consistent NFL QB.

2. He can't come off to his 2nd and 3rd options.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

It will always be a case of could have, should have, and would have with Ramsey. The fact that some people still think Gus could have been something special makes me think the same will be true for Ramsey. The reality is he's just not what he all hoped he was going to be.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326218]It will always be a case of could have, should have, and would have with Ramsey. The fact that some people still think Gus could have been something special makes me think the same will be true for Ramsey. The reality is he's just not what he all hoped he was going to be.[/quote]There are NFL teams who are starting QBs worse than Patrick Ramsey (i.e. Carolina, Oakland, Buffalo, Cleveland pre-Quinn), so its not like he was a total bust.

There were just better QBs out there for the Washington Redskins, and Gibbs made sure to get a pair.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=GTripp0012;326221]There are NFL teams who are starting QBs worse than Patrick Ramsey (i.e. Carolina, Oakland, Buffalo, Cleveland pre-Quinn), so its not like he was a total bust.

There were just better QBs out there for the Washington Redskins, and Gibbs made sure to get a pair.[/quote]

So why have teams in need of a starter not made any plays for him? First he went to NY where their QB situation was shaky but has now solidified, and now he moves on to Denver where he's very unlikely to see any time unless it's due to injury.

I guess it depends on what your definition of total bust is, but a first rounder who now appears to be a career backup smells of a bust to me.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326223]So why have teams in need of a starter not made any plays for him? First he went to NY where their QB situation was shaky but has now solidified, and now he moves on to Denver where he's very unlikely to see any time unless it's due to injury.[/quote]Because nobody in football knows anything about anything. Nobody wants to disrupt the cohesion and chemistry (and the subsequent losing) that their a bad QB brings.

And of course, if they did decide it was time for an upgrade, they'd probably shoot higher than Patrick Ramsey. Thus, a bunch of horrible QBs go in the first round, and bad teams stay bad.

Patrick Ramsey is worth about one more win over the course of an entire 16 game season than, say, Rex Grossman for example. But if you are the Bears, does it really make a lot of sense to cut Grossman and bring in Ramsey when you [I]could [/I]have drafted a QB instead? It makes you look indecisive as a franchise and it seems that football execs would MUCH rather be seen as wrong than as indecisive.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326223]I guess it depends on what your definition of total bust is, but a first rounder who now appears to be a career backup smells of a bust to me.[/quote]32nd overall pick.

I mean, the Skins pretty much got the value of the pick in the player they selected. History shows that rarely will more than 2 QBs come out of a draft that are going to be very good. The Redskins took a QB at 32, and generally, if you can get a average or slightly below average starter out of the pick (Ramsey in a nutshell), you've gotten the value.

He's a tad better than Carr was, and infinately better than Harrington.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=GTripp0012;326235]32nd overall pick.

I mean, the Skins pretty much got the value of the pick in the player they selected. History shows that rarely will more than 2 QBs come out of a draft that are going to be very good. The Redskins took a QB at 32, and generally, if you can get a average or slightly below average starter out of the pick (Ramsey in a nutshell), you've gotten the value.

He's a tad better than Carr was, and infinately better than Harrington.[/quote]

32nd overall still = first round pick. Something tells me when he was drafted the Skins weren't banking on getting an average or below average player.

Is he really that much better than Harrington?

I don't think very highly of either, but I just don't see that much of a difference.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=GTripp0012;326230]Because nobody in football knows anything about anything. Nobody wants to disrupt the cohesion and chemistry (and the subsequent losing) that their a bad QB brings.

And of course, if they did decide it was time for an upgrade, they'd probably shoot higher than Patrick Ramsey. Thus, a bunch of horrible QBs go in the first round, and bad teams stay bad.

Patrick Ramsey is worth about one more win over the course of an entire 16 game season than, say, Rex Grossman for example. But if you are the Bears, does it really make a lot of sense to cut Grossman and bring in Ramsey when you [I]could [/I]have drafted a QB instead? It makes you look indecisive as a franchise and it seems that football execs would MUCH rather be seen as wrong than as indecisive.[/quote]

I'm really lost as to what you're trying to say here but I'll respond anyway.

Teams should make moves to improve their team. If you have a starting caliber QB sitting on a bench somewhere, why would you not want to bring him in, especially a younger guy like Ramsey who already has some starting experience??

Hell, Matt Schaub is a lot less proven than Ramsey at the NFL level and he's been handed a starting gig and the Texans went and cut Carr to clear the position for him. Does that make them indecisive because they decided that Carr wasn't cutting it and they would rather take their chances on Schaub?

If I were the Bears and I decided Grossman wasn't the answer, I sure as hell would try to make a move rather than worrying about how that move would be perceived.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326238]32nd overall still = first round pick. Something tells me when he was drafted the Skins weren't banking on getting an average or below average player.[/quote]I think you are absolutely correct here, but this plays right into my "nobody in football knows anything" point. If they weren't looking for just some average guy to solve the QB issue, they should have picked at a different position. They weren't high enough to grab a stud.

Of course, same logic applies to the Campbell pick, however, we have to credit 25 teams, at least half of which needed a QB, for passing on him before we praise the Skins for a great pick.

[QUOTE]Is he really that much better than Harrington?

I don't think very highly of either, but I just don't see that much of a difference.[/QUOTE]Harrington has done so much to hurt the Lions that its safe to say they could have won about 2 games more each year just by replacing Joey with pretty much the run of the mill waiver wire QB.

Ramsey at least had skills that couldn't be duplicated by any old schmoe. He just wasn't ever going to be much more than he was.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326239]I'm really lost as to what you're trying to say here but I'll respond anyway.

Teams should make moves to improve their team. If you have a starting caliber QB sitting on a bench somewhere, why would you not want to bring him in, especially a younger guy like Ramsey who already has some starting experience??

Hell, Matt Schaub is a lot less proven than Ramsey at the NFL level and he's been handed a starting gig and the Texans went and cut Carr to clear the position for him. Does that make them indecisive because they decided that Carr wasn't cutting it and they would rather take their chances on Schaub?

If I were the Bears and I decided Grossman wasn't the answer, I sure as hell would try to make a move rather than worrying about how that move would be perceived.[/quote]My post wasn't very clear, but I think you got my drift.

The Texans could have upgraded their QB situation by signing Ramsey for a lot less money and without all those picks. But they would never have done that, and this actually is a good example of the point I was trying to make.

Ramsey would have been an upgrade over Carr, but in an effort to not seem indecisive, the Texans chose to pour a ton of money and picks into Schaub, emphatically making their decision.

Now, Schaub is a much better QB than Ramsey, and will prove so this year. But was he 8 million dollars a year and 2 second rounders better? That's tough to say.

If the Bears decided that Grossman wasn't the answer, I'm guessing they probably wouldn't be all like "we had 11 wins with Rex, but we could get this great value guy (Ramsey), and win 12 games!". They'd probably swing a blockbuster deal for an overvalued QB thats better, and would cost way more in both money and picks.

Thats why Ramsey has no starting job.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326239]If I were the Bears and I decided Grossman wasn't the answer, I sure as hell would try to make a move rather than worrying about how that move would be perceived.[/quote]I would too for sure, but I'm guessing once you were in the business, you'd realize just how much of a minority you were.

GMs and coaches will talk all night and day about how "winning is everything", but if one move is going to be received kindly to your peers, and the other is going to for all intents and purposes, slap them accross the face, the exec that does too much of the latter is going to find himself out of a job.

No matter how good he is at his job.

In the NFL, earning the respect of your peers is far more important than creating a winner. Granted, you can earn respect BY creating a winner, but you are going to stay around much longer being a well-respected loser, than a guy who has a bad rep around the league.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

Or maybe Ramsey just isn't very highly regarding by personnel evaluators in the league? I find it hard to believe if someone felt he was starting material, he would be riding the bench like he has been the past few years and will seemingly only continue to do so in the near future.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

Ramsey, E. Manning, Kitna, Grossman, Delhomme, Cleveland QB's, Carr and many other NFL QB's are just not difference makers. You probably have 6-8 NFL QB's ( P. Manning, Brady, Brees, Palmer Bulger, McNabb, maybe Hassleback) that are really difference makers. The rest of the guys are either too young or just average/good players. I just think right now the NFL does not have a lot of good NFL QB's. Ramsey is no better than Grossman or Grossman is not better than Delhomme and so on and so on.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

Grossman not better than Delhomme??

Delhomme is pretty solid, certainly much better than Grossman at this point.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326263]Grossman not better than Delhomme??

Delhomme is pretty solid, certainly much better than Grossman at this point.[/quote]

I don't think it's a big difference. They are in the same ballpark if you ask me. Both turn it over a little too much and are streaky passers.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

I agree both are streaky but I think Delhomme is more proven at this point and even his worst seasons are better than what Grossman did last year.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

Champ Bailey is likely a future HOFer and it would've been great if he retired as a 'Skin.

Re: In Gus I Trust
 

[quote=EXoffender;326275]Champ Bailey is likely a future HOFer and it would've been great if he retired as a 'Skin.[/quote]

I didn't event think about Champ! Still can't believe we let him walk outta here. I know we got Portis and all but your right. Champ is HOF talent.